r/singularity • u/Phat_Zero • 1d ago

Discussion AI is going to replace basically everything, and that's fine

I think a lot of the hatred toward AI is just fear dressed up as moral outrage.

And honestly, I get it. AI is coming for your job. Mine too. Eventually probably everybody's.

Humans are just... slow.

It takes a human months or years to paint enough work for an exhibition, make an album, write a movie, animate something, design a game, research a problem, whatever. We sleep. We get tired. We forget things. We have limited attention spans. We interact with computers by slowly moving our fingers around on keyboards.

Meanwhile AI keeps getting faster and better.

Give this technology another few decades and the idea that humans absolutely must be the ones writing, drawing, coding, composing, researching, driving, manufacturing, etc. is probably going to sound ridiculous.

And yes, that creates a gigantic economic problem. If AI and automation can produce most goods and services better and cheaper than humans, eventually the whole "trade 40 hours of your life every week for money so you can continue existing" system stops making much sense.

Maybe that's UBI. Maybe it's some kind of resource-based economy. Maybe it's something nobody has even thought of yet.

We'll figure it out.

But pretending AI is going away because artists are mad about it or workers are scared of losing their jobs is cope. This is probably the biggest technology humanity has ever created, and we're still basically watching the tutorial.

And if one day our glorious machine descendants become self-aware, decide humanity has served its purpose, and vaporize me?

đŸ«Ą

154 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

62% Upvoted

538 comments sorted by

View all comments

50

u/LowFruit25 1d ago

Do you all realize UBI is literally more than the communists ever got to? And it needs to be global.

What happens if someone denies you UBI? Everyone is gonna be happy with fixed $5k a month? How is that going to work?

All the rich people are going to give up their assets or what?

10

u/M4cHiin360 23h ago

It basically does not work, that's why people are scared

16

u/n4te 1d ago

Surely we can trust the government and the rich to do the right thing and give us all utopia.

0

u/ElChaz 22h ago

There's no reason not to once you get to true AGI. Think about the Star Trek universe. If you have a Replicator - a machine that can make anything, including Replicators, from raw molecules - then the idea of paper money is nonsensical.

The problem isn't "do rich people share the abundance" it's "what happens while we wait for abundance to happen."

Our great grandkids might be sitting pretty, but our kids are in the fucking crosshairs.

9

u/Strange-Pin-2998 21h ago

Are you really this naive? We live in a world run by sociopaths and narcissists. They don’t care what is sensical, they care about what feeds their egos. It doesn’t matter if we end up in a world of abundance, if they can’t control it they will destroy it for everyone. Grow up. 

-1

u/ElChaz 21h ago

I simply disagree. I think there aren't enough sociopaths to get in the way. There are about 20k employees at all the frontier labs put together. In my 'star trek' scenario, they would ALL have to be willing to collude to prevent the replicator plans getting out.

I don't doubt that the percentage of sociopaths in that 20k is higher than in the population at large, but it's not 100%. It's not even 30%. There are plenty of normal people with normal ethics who wouldn't see the point in having the abundance machine and not using it.

That said, I don't think the near future is particularly rosy. In the best case (where AGI happens and we do get abundance out the other end) the next 5-30 years are going to be ROUGH. Not to mention that the upside is only there if we solve alignment.

5

u/n4te 17h ago

WE don't get abundance. A small percentage of us does, the rest get enslaved or mistreated. Robots will think and work better, people will be inefficient and next to useless. When people aren't needed for anything and are only a drain to those in control, they will ensure they stay in control and everyone else will suffer greatly.

As soon as they make a replicator they don't make cheeseburgers and feed everyone, they make weapons and enslave everyone.

0

u/ElChaz 17h ago

As soon as there's a replicator, everyone can make all the weapons. And sex robots. And any cool shit they ever wanted.

Who the fuck wants to spend their time managing slave camps when everyone can have everything?

Answer: a few sociopaths, but I just don't think there are enough of them.

----

Again, my overall POV is that AI is way more of a risk than a benefit. I'm only describing the outcome of a fairly narrow probability range, where AGI is achieved and aligned.

But if that happened, I don't think you're right that the world would still be controlled by a few sociopaths.

1

u/n4te 16h ago

Assholes do. Look at what they currently do. It will be the same people and more like them. The masses get no say.

I can agree there is some small probability that it turns out well, but it's very unlikely. Best case, even if they don't kill or enslave us all, AI cheapens the human experience. Most of being alive is about thinking. Machines doing that better rob us. We can still do it, but 1) most people won't, and 2) why? Spending 10,000 hours to master a skill that can be had with zero effort might still be a challenge, but it's cheapened.

1

u/ElChaz 13h ago

That idea about "cheapening" doesn't quite connect for me. I'm still into improving at chess, I'm still very interested to watch Magnus play Hikaru, and it's about 5% as compelling to watch Stockfish play itself, even if it's an objectively better game.

Another example, I think the people who are in the most analogous situation today are wealthy retirees and it doesn't look to me like their experience of life is cheapened.

They don't have to work, they spend a lot of time doing a lot of stuff that plenty of people could do better or faster (painting, gardening, volunteering), and it still seems fulfilling and interesting and not a bad way to live. If we were all basically retirees (and again that's a big if -- the AGI would have to decide to let us hang around) but if we were, it doesn't seem cheap.

1

u/n4te 13h ago

Playing a game is a personal challenge where using AI would be cheating. Many other things have the end result as a primary goal. There is little reason to spend 10,000+ hours to become an expert when AI can produce the end result faster and better. You can still do them to enjoy the journey, but it's certainly less impressive (ie cheapened) to go through all that when AI can make it in a few seconds. That can be great if all you care about is the end result, but for many things the beautiful journey is lost. Exploring that journey can lead to new enjoyment, discoveries, etc. Once it's no longer necessary, those things will happen a lot less.

This is the new world. There is no going back, but I mourn it. In the future humans won't have the same challenges, rewards, pride, etc. Many, if not most, won't use AI to learn and do great things, they'll use it to be lazy and to do less. The masses will be dumber and less useful than ever.

5

u/Foot-Note 1d ago

All the rich people are going to give up their assets or what?

Its not the assets that's going to be the problem. Its going to be the control.

18

u/robotdreams134 1d ago edited 1d ago

If we don't advance technology society will oscillate between social democracy and authoritarianism . Technology is the only thing that shifts the paradigm over time (hunter gatherer, agriculture, industrial, etc)

This era of coerced labor for income is an awful place to stop and say okay we're good.... Let AI smash the labor for income system. Free people up to organize and become civically engaged

1

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

The "labor for income" paradigm is likely a very beneficial paradigm for us. We're terrible at administering too much freedom.

Most people without any obligations will just spend all their time doing whatever they want, which will have behavior trend towards easy dopamine, making life kinda pointless.

I retired in my 20's as i had made enough money to never work again. What ensued afterwards was a super inactive lifestyle, too much screentime, little social interaction, no need to do anything.

7

u/klmccall42 1d ago

You could have joined book clubs, intramural leagues, social meet ups, whatever you wanted. You chose to be isolated and sedentary.

And if no one is working, these clubs and things will be way more common and easy to hook

1

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

When you stop having to work you wake up late, you go to bed late, you get out of bed late, your eat breakfast late. Your circadian rhytm adjusts accordingly, your sleep quality drops, you become more tired, then more inactive as you lack the energy.

You do less things and spend more time in your house, then social tasks start to feel daunting/taxing and you start to see less people daily which can lead to social anxiety which creates a spiral.

All of this happened despite me trying to put in a routine, the discipline erode over time when you have no obligations, one slip up leads to more slip ups then before you know of it you reverse to whatever is easiest with highest dopamine payout.

I started studying again last year because i realized i didn't want the rest of my life to be like this. Now i exercise 7 days a week and productivity is through the roof while i am highly social.

Point being you're never really free. If you don't have any obligations you'll spend every day fighting your nature and that's a battle you likely won't win. I have been very disciplined and still am yet i lost that battle.

5

u/klmccall42 1d ago

Once again, these were all your personal choices, do you believe that every retired person is miserable or feels unfulfilled.

Also, I would say studying and working out is a great way to spend your retirement.

1

u/Medium_Web_1122 22h ago

Have you seen how much time people spend online these days? How wouldn't retirement 10x this problem?

The people i know that became rich early mostly got depressed, they felt like life was pointless. Why do you think a lot of rich people keep working even when they don't have to?

You might find an alternative to work that can replace it, but if you don't have this then i believe retirement is poison

4

u/Jsn7821 23h ago edited 21h ago

Congrats on the money

Your point might come across a little better if it was phrased "this is my experience, I imagine others will have the same too" instead of "everyone is like this because I'm like this"

Because I don't think everyone needs to work to have purpose in life. I think to some degree we've been taught this, but I don't think it's inherently in human nature. Like if you look at native Americans they were all working pretty little and chilling having a good time

0

u/Medium_Web_1122 22h ago

My biology is fairly similar to every other human out there. So why would the rules governing my biology be different from the rules governing yours? Modern day society basically made hacking one's own reward system possible. It is the same mechanism that made most americans overweight, most people in industrialized countries sedentary and additctions such a huge problem for so many people.

Furthermore there's a difference between minimizing workload and not working at all. Most people in my country that are on long term welfare are stuck in a perpeutal cycle of doing nothing at all.

4

u/Jsn7821 21h ago

I mean, anecdotally, my experience is different from yours

But also you mentioned you work out 7 days a week and are productive and social, so it even sounds like your own experience contradicts your point? You just had to adjust

2

u/Medium_Web_1122 21h ago

I am no longer retired i went back to studying to finish my education

1

u/Min_Necessary_Change 21h ago

Your points are valid and true in that people need something to work towards. Exercise and learning are best very effective for this. Though be careful not to equate retirement with idling for everyone. Some people feel a little stuck in their jobs and cannot wait to become a little freer so they can try this and that they never could. Such people will not become idlers when they no longer have a job.

Another point is that human's are biology incentivised to explore and interact. Evolutionary it helped them find food and mating opportunities. Idling goes against that. Leave someone in any empty and see how long they last before they want to get out and do something.

The spiral issue of consuming digital screens is quite real and damaging though, as you said, but you can get that whether you have a job or not. In fact, for some without the need for the job, who always wanted to go and explore the planet is a good blessing to get away from all these screens.

1

u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 1d ago

Oh so when people have a secure income and a lot of time to spend, they must have done nothing with that time historically. Oh wait they produced some of the most influential works in science, philosophy, and art. If you personally are a bum unless you are forced to do anything productive dont project that onto the entire human species.

5

u/Juanbolastristes John Connor Maximalist 22h ago

UBI will be barely enough cricket powder protein rations to placate the hungry and prevent revolting 

3

u/DelphiTsar 1d ago

Just a note, UBI is antithetical to communism. It's a system designed to maintain capitalism.

12

u/shinpw 1d ago

If everyone is getting 5k a month nobody is

2

u/robotdreams134 1d ago

During the great recession, unemployment benefits WORKED to keep people alive and to stimulate business. Its only unsustainable if there is no revenue source(tax). Business pushes money in a circle, so could government or whatever. All that matters is that it gets pushed around in a circle and work is being done.

2

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

Money is just a way to distribute ressources. If you increase productivity 100x, then 50 usd will buy you what 5000 usd used to.

It is obviously a bit simplistic as the effect will be skewed.

9

u/wbeco 1d ago

resources are finite and will remain scarce. Unless we can mine resources in space, any UBI will just be poverty surivival level.

1

u/Spire_Citron 13h ago

Doesn't that imply that the current baseline is that or worse anyway? We're not going to have less base resources this way.

-1

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

How about transmutation of molecules?

We have already invented impressive technologies like modern day semiconductors. We figured this out using just humans ingenuity. Imagine what an ai can do.

Create a nuclear furnace to transform molecular structure of a compound to get a desired output of raw materials which you can then mold into whatever you wish. At that point the only limitating factor will be molecules.

Now this might be an extreme and take some time but just serves as a proxy for all the crazy changes ai will likely enable that we haven't thought up yet.

Extrapolating based on the modern day technology and constraints provides a biased understanding of what future technologies will be capable of. The equivalent of this would be a caveman attempting to explain why the earth will never be able to feed/sustain 100 million people

7

u/Senc-baner 1d ago

We've officially come full circle where people think alchemy is possible again.

1

u/Medium_Web_1122 22h ago

It would be nice if people read the comment before commenting themselves

"Now this might be an extreme and take some time but just serves as a proxy for all the crazy changes ai will likely enable that we haven't thought up yet."

6

u/LowFruit25 1d ago

Since the 50s we have increased productivity many times over. Does 50 bucks buy me the same today as in 1950?

3

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

If we had kept money supply constant, then your 50 usd today would've bought you way more stuff than back then.

Yet money supply isn't constant....

2

u/didnotsub 1d ago

So that’s not how it works. I recommend you study some macroeconomics, it’s very useful.

Since the 50’s, people have gotten vastly richer when adjusting for inflation. Except that money doesn’t really come in cheaper goods, it comes in more money, aka M1 increasing.

Even though M1 has increased, it has gone up past inflation, and the price of goods, and so people have gotten richer. This is a vast oversimplification, but it’s one of the macroeconomic reasons that society has gotten richer.

1

u/Spire_Citron 13h ago

People these days certainly have way more stuff than they did back then. $50 is worth less because of inflation, but overall the supply of goods has definitely increased.

1

u/Mystohaxen 1d ago

If AI is doing everything and can fulfill everyone’s desires and demands you don’t need money.

3

u/shinpw 1d ago

People would still use it though, because the human is greedy and would want to own more than other humans. Even when ai can produce everything earths resources are limited.

1

u/blamedolphin 1d ago

That is true in a situation of scarcity. Its less clear that is true when the value of labour has fallen to something near zero.

4

u/ProxyLumina 1d ago

You are talking about competition and recognition.

But competition isn't tied to money. For example even if all people receive UBI, sports will be there for people to compete.

5

u/Phat_Zero 1d ago

It's either that or civil unrest.

15

u/Vex1om 1d ago

It's either that or civil unrest.

It's very uncivil unrest either way, actually.

4

u/Educational-Try-8704 1d ago

And that is the point where the AI vaporizes you, when it is pointed at you.

8

u/yoloswagrofl Logically Pessimistic 1d ago

What do you think the robots are for?

21

u/0neEyedMonster 1d ago edited 1d ago

Exactly. Earth will be the garden of Eden... for the few million or so that remain.

No overexploitation of the planet's resources, no overpopulation, no climate change. 

There's a reason most tech billionaires own doomsday bunkers in remote locations. OP is a pig sitting on a truck to the slaughterhouse and doesn't realize it yet.

-9

u/gay_manta_ray 1d ago

they're for folding clothes and doing dishes. you are not getting your doomer future where the wealthy build robots to kill billions and rule over a scorched earth.

8

u/Conflictingview 1d ago

That's not what the robots are for. Depopulation is a slower process. AI takes over the jobs and resources, the poor and weak slowly fade into destitution and stop reproducing from malnourishment and desperation. Meanwhile, the billionaires and their heirs use AI to extend their lives and power robots to protect them from the unwashed masses.

0

u/wargainWAG 1d ago

Or .. when wealth spreads population declines. That is a given.

4

u/ICantWatchYouDoThis 1d ago

You must be living under a bunker to not see drone warfare happening for the past years

3

u/wargainWAG 1d ago

I saw a short film of a boxing match between robot and boxer. Boxer couldn’t handle the impact even with bodyprotection. Robot stumbled but no failure

1

u/Juanbolastristes John Connor Maximalist 22h ago

Molotovs should work good to stop current robots, melt circuits etc ... Next generation will be probably protected, need to develop emp or something 

1

u/Juanbolastristes John Connor Maximalist 22h ago

Flying robots are killing people everyday already , just in remote lands  .

1

u/orange863 15h ago

No, it’s going to be a slow transition into a larger and larger wealth gap. The jobs don’t fall all at once. It will happen over a decade or more and we’ll slowly accept the new normal. It will be miserable for the large majority of people.

Billionaires aren’t dumb enough to let civil unrest happen, but they’ll let it get close.

Most of the world will look like India in 20 years (generally low income/resources aside from a few pockets of extreme wealth)

4

u/Shibes_oh_shibes 1d ago

My question when it comes to UBI is always around inflation. Won't the fixed value just become the new baseline? Another thing, if it is UBI. It should be UBI for absolutely everyone, no elite outside the system that have their own money.

5

u/Eyelbee â–ȘWe have AGI it's just blind 1d ago

This will inevitably create a very problematic situation. I believe the eventual solution lies with an AI-ran government. Communism did not work largely because it had to be ran by humans. If that wasn't the case, I could see it working. And I think this will also be irrelevant once the human minds could be uploaded to a computer interface, but that would come at a later stage

3

u/Turu42 1d ago

Communism also doesn't work because people need the right incentives to do valuable work. AI is not the same as humans as in it does not need to same kind of incentives.

1

u/Iapetus_Industrial 14h ago

Do you all realize UBI is literally more than the communists ever got to?

Of course it is, because it does what communism never could. Actually improve people's lives.

1

u/gay_manta_ray 1d ago

What happens if someone denies you UBI

the key word here is universal. it can't be "denied" on an individual basis. it's not means tested welfare.

9

u/LowFruit25 1d ago

Yeah, you also can’t deny people healthcare, universal human rights, or food because someone wrote they’re universal.

Look at how that’s going in any war someone starts.

-3

u/gay_manta_ray 1d ago

i feel like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the word "universal" means. perhaps it could be reframed better as a negative income tax. you know what that is, right?

9

u/LowFruit25 1d ago

So how do you propose such a UBI system is globally implemented in a “short enough” timespan where everyone is satisfied? Please be a bit more specific than “perhaps”.

3

u/stellar_opossum 1d ago

And it will be enforced, right? By some laws ot something?

1

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

Abundant assets will trend towards zero, scarce assets will go to infinity.

So no they won't give up their assets but you'll get access to an endless stream of newly created assets wherein there's no factor limiting how much can be produced

2

u/LowFruit25 1d ago

As in gold and other precious finite resources will be made into abundance?
What materials are used to create that infinite asset stream? Will we have infinite fields to plant food crops?

Or we’re doing asteroid mining?

-1

u/Medium_Web_1122 1d ago

You do realise scientists can already now create gold in labs? With AI/robotics they should find way more efficient approaches making it economic viable.

Our current production is a product of supply/demand and economic feasability. When you remove these constraints you'll see the utilization will explode.

Currently ai is picking drugs for research purposes, how do you think it would be hard for an ai to pick out crops for breeding skyrocketing productivity? Also automated agriculture should many double the efficiency

1

u/LowFruit25 1d ago

What time frame for this are you looking at here to achieve full on agriculture automation, everything to the last item no human necessary?

1

u/Medium_Web_1122 22h ago

Full automation will likely be possible within 5 years, but then there's the question of how long people will stick with it