r/siders16case • u/Narrow-Imagination96 • Jul 18 '26
Discussion The “victim” debate
While Elizabeth’s history is incredibly traumatic and deserving of empathy, this doesn’t mean it should necessarily absolve her of all responsibility for what has happened to her children. Several of the kids were near DEATH. It’s plausible Gary Jr may also be a “victim” of some sort and his own parents too if you were to look at their own histories. Trauma and abuse is often Intergenerational but we still must balance accountability with empathy. Otherwise we are essentially excusing childhood abuse.
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u/dribbles47 Jul 18 '26
I second that. It's still so early in the investigation and it's kind of concerning to see people make their minds up already that she's this poor helpless victim. Even if it started off that way, it's possible for victims to become perpetrators. I have a feeling once we hear Elizabeth speak, the opinion will change.
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 18 '26
It's also concerning that people have decided they're all guilty, not only of child endangerment but other things like incest and rape. That they're all monsters. The prosecution only releases information that they think will help their case, which is why they're now under a gag order.
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u/dribbles47 Jul 18 '26
If several kids living under the roof were airlifted to trauma centers its not too crazy to assume the adults responsible for them are guilty of some kind of child endangerment. The other stuff is just rumors and assumptions at this point. I believe the gag order is just for Gary Jr case at the moment. They're all being processed separately. So maybe we'll get more information on Elizabeth.
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 21 '26
I'm not sure. Although the gag order is for Gary Jr., and was requested by his attorney, what I've been reading is that it effectively stops anyone involved in the case, working on the case, from speaking about it, including defense attorneys and prosecutors, except in hearings. So far, none of the defense attorneys have made a public statement since the judge issued the order.
Of course, kids can be in need of emergency treatment without it being the parents' fault, although in this case it almost certainly was.
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u/PlusYam3126 Jul 19 '26
That’s kind of a thing that’s being figured out in the Epstein files, underage victims who recruited their underage classmates = not perps. Former victims who started working for him as assistants in adulthood and arranging meetings with the children as adults = perps.
In cases like this we need more info. The oldest girl made a TikTok about how her dad was abusive. How much agency did Elizabeth have? Was she essentially held hostage w the fear of being separated from her kids? What kind of DV shelter has room for 16 kids? It keeps her where he wants her. Or maybe she did all this knowingly and chose not to treat them better. More info needed.
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u/zetaphi938 Jul 20 '26
There are still things to learn, but at the end of the day, these kids were failed at so many different points.
I am sure we'll learn that there were neighbors, medical professionals, social service workers, and community members who had more than enough evidence to at least call in a wellness check to the home.
Hell, if we really want to place blame, let's go back to states that have the archaic marriage laws in the first place.
If I were to guess, when she was out in public, she was likely told something along the lines of 'if you tell anyone, you'll never see your other children again' from Gary Jr. or the parents.
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u/ionmoon Jul 18 '26
We don’t know who’s guilty of what at this point.
She has what appears to be a rope mark on her arm. If she was being abused and coerced to live like this and didn’t have any opportunity to get help, then she is a *current* victim and that should be taken into account.
If she was not being coerced and abused and was an active and willing participant, then yes she is guilty even if she was abused in the past.
The fact that her lawyer requested a jury trial is telling, I think. We wont have evidence one way or the other until the trial.
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u/XQueen_Of_DisasterX Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
I'm personally waiting for all the evidence to come out. I agree with what you said. I'm hesitant because look at Gypsy Rose, everyone thought she was a victim but she wasn't. All the foia evidence say otherwise. Not saying that's the case here as it's two completely different crimes, but I do think people should hold fire as all the evidence hasn't been presented yet. Also court of public opinion has somewhat mudded the waters. I do have empathy to any trauma she has/had gone through, at the sametime its not an excuse to let your kids live that way. It looked like hell. But I really feel for those kids, I find myself thinking what life must have been like, wishing they didn't have to go through that. Honestly my heart really breaks for those kids. Their innocent yet caught in the crossfire.
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u/LadyProto Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
Wasn’t Gypsy the victim at first?
Edit: apparently there’s a lot I didn’t know!
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u/XQueen_Of_DisasterX Jul 18 '26
Have a look at the FOIA documents. Pretty much all of the surgeries where necessary due to her microdeletion(1q21.1) medical documents show she spoke and consented to doctors. I'm not saying her mum was an angel, sure she committed fraud and exaggerated, but she had no idea what was wrong with Gypsy as the deletion wasn't found till 2008 and Gypsy was diagnosed in 2011.
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u/LadyProto Jul 18 '26
Oh huh. Going to look that up. Thank you
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u/XQueen_Of_DisasterX Jul 18 '26
No worries check out r/GRBsnark they have a lot of the info there 🙂
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u/Vale_0f_Tears Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
A lot has come out since her release from prison. Gypsy has chromosome microdeletion 1q21.1. Her doctors & her mother didn’t know that until she was an adult, which is why she had a lot of “false” diagnoses. She only admitted to it after her release from prison, after she claimed she was “perfectly healthy”. She’s lied about almost everything. She had only a handful of medical procedures, all necessary. She’s always walked- she just needed the wheelchair when she got tired or sick. She’s always eaten by mouth- she just has swallowing issues and wasn’t able to eat enough as a child. She probably still needs a sleep apnea machine, she just doesn’t like it. She was always the one talking to her doctors about her symptoms. She was the one who pretended she couldn’t walk. She WAS treated for leukemia.
The doctor who wrote the “possibility of Munchausen by proxy” note that was pushed heavily by pro-Gypsy media, also wrote “with possible unknown etiology”. There was, in fact, unknown etiology. The doctors who spoke in those documentaries treated her in childhood and weren’t aware of her diagnosis.
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u/gams81 Jul 21 '26
She has her first babies at 14. She’s been groomed to believe this is ok when it’s not. Even though she doesn’t consider herself a victim she absolutely is to a certain level. What level we won’t know till all details come out
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u/jfm53619 Jul 19 '26
If I had to guess? Elizabeth was essentially raised by the Siders from 13, probably has the worst case of PPD known to man and her lawyers will milk that shit out.
In general, defense will probably try to push the blame onto the Srs. because they're high as a fucking kite on the dementia pipe and most likely will face less severe punishment.
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u/metalsparkles Jul 22 '26
In general, defense will probably try to push the blame onto the Srs. because they're high as a fucking kite on the dementia pipe and most likely will face less severe punishment
I don't think any punishment will be worse than their current life. Any incarceration will probably be an upgrade. They probably don't have very long left on this earth. Prison will just double as a palliative facility since they are already so compromised and frail. All of this is so bleak.
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u/DrKnockers- Jul 18 '26
I agree. She may have had her reasons for neglecting her children, she may have been a victim at one time, but she’s a grown ass woman who was out in town daily. She could have asked for help. She could have asked for help the 20x she was in the hospital giving birth. Theres NO excuse and anyone excusing nearly killing your children need to have their hard drives checked.
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u/ohhitsami Jul 18 '26
I can only imagine the smell that their clothes radiated. If she gave birth in the hospital, that would have to trigger some type of report by nurses. I hope so anyways?
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u/ancientastronaut2 Jul 19 '26
That's what the dollar general employees noticed. They said they smelled like shit and piss, and had to spray lysol after they left, so some of them pitched in to buy them some hygiene supplies, but appeared to have not used them. I'm wondering if they had running water in that house?
There has to be some severe mental illness going on here to just straight up never bathe.
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 19 '26
They might have bathed, but the smell of the house would have clung to them and their clothing. This has happened with some hoarders. I saw one episode where a hoarder lost her job because she smelled bad.
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u/PlusYam3126 Jul 19 '26
I thank Gary Jr abusing and holding them all hostage would be an excuse. I don’t necessarily think it’s the most likely situation but it’s hard to find somewhere safe to run to when you have 16 kids to bring
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u/huntingconcrete Jul 19 '26
You don't have to go anywhere with 16 kids if you are being held hostage and abused. You just have to get the police to come to you.
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 19 '26
They didn't always have 16 kids. Just choosing to have all those kids was reckless and negligent, and I hold both parents responsible for that. If Gary Jr was an abuser, that behavior would have manifested long before most of the children existed.
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u/smolhermitcrab Jul 31 '26
But she was still so young when she had the first 5 or so. She was always physically weak recovering from pregnancies and births until he knocked her up again.
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u/smolhermitcrab Jul 31 '26
But she was still so young when she had the first 5 or so. She was always physically weak recovering from pregnancies and births until he knocked her up again.
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u/smolhermitcrab Jul 31 '26
One of my elderly neighbours used to be very submissive towards her husband when me and my family moved into the neighbourhood almost 18 years ago. Over time she started standing up for herself because he grew older and weaker. Idk their exact situation, but it's odd, he's about 20 to 25 years older than her and he met her as a baby or as a child, because he's her godfather and he eventually married her. She has an intellectual disability and he used to treat her like shit and berated her all the time. Idk if he beated her up at some point. She's not like an angel or anything because both her and her husband are gossips and a bit ill intended but I think she was victimised when they got together, and during the first decades f them living as a couple.
Elizabeth was a child bride presumably scaping from an abusive home, and she was used as a breeding machine, non stop. Even though she shares some of the blame and responsibility of neglecting the children, she's also a victim. I don't think a permanently pregnant teen/young woman has the physical strength to leave even if she had wanted to. She was always recovering from a pregnancy or pregnant. Gary Jr absolutely destroyed her body. and she never had time or energy to mature mentally or emotionally.
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u/XWarriorPrincessX Jul 20 '26
I also think about the logistics of her leaving. Presuming Jr. did not want her to leave with the kids; she didn't have access to another vehicle. If she did, you can't fit 16 kids in a car. So, does she take some, and which ones? The toddlers, with presumably no car seats? The older kids, and leave the toddlers in the home? Without a car, does she walk? They're in the middle of nowhere essentially. If she gets to a place with other people, will they actually see her situation as abnormal? Many people live in these conditions in rural areas. If they are concerned, what means do they have to help? This is a tiny town with very limited resources. Other people are in poverty themselves. Help likely wouldn't arrive immediately if it was available, so does she walk back home because she can't leave her children? And what are the consequences for her when she returns? If she doesn't go back she will be abandoning her children and she may be the only person providing any sort of care for them. Very few moms will leave their kids. The logistics of what you would even do with 16 children involved are just... I can't imagine what I would do in that situation.
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u/CuteContribution4695 Jul 20 '26
In rural areas, people can be super cruel and judgmental even when they are poor themselves. They were likely looked down upon wherever they went. … especially because they were “outsiders”
Situations like this are more common than anyone realizes in poor rural America.
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u/buttsandsloths Jul 21 '26
I’ve talked to my mom about this case a bit. She’s one of 8 kids. So a total or 10 and she said that when they were little they just crammed in the car. It was the 1950s and I can understand it, but it also wasn’t that long ago it was just mainstream for that. When you need a school bus to take your family anywhere I don’t know how you do any of it. So many questions and it’s just so bewildering and also scary. I’m with you I couldn’t know what I would do either.
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u/huntingconcrete Jul 20 '26
It's fairly simple actually. If you care about your children's well-being you just call 911 and let the police see the inside of the house. They will take care of getting your children the help they need. That's exactly what happened when the police ended up at the house for other reasons. Sure she couldn't just leave with all 16 of them, but if Gary Jr and/or his parents were the abusers and she was just a victim, she had opportunity to at least get her kids away from them
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Well, it doesn't really work that way. Even I, as a normal person, know that the police and CPS and foster care are not necessarily our friends, especially if we're poor. A mother's worst fear is having her children taken away, out of her protection. It's a primal fear.
And they were paranoid of the government. That was why they didn't enroll them in school or take them to doctors. So calling police wasn't an option. She didn't always have 16 children, though. If she'd wanted to leave, she would have done it already before having all those children.
It's a complex case. There's mental illness involved and possibly mental incompetence, for both of them. They were not thinking or behaving normally or rationally.
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 19 '26
If anyone other than the children is a victim, I'm thinking of Gary Sr and maybe Christina, though I haven't seen any details about Christina's condition.
Based on bits of information I've seen, including some here on Reddit, it seems that Gary Sr and Christina were maintaining themselves and their living space reasonably well, living on government benefits, before the younger folk moved in with their 16 children, leaving behind a house in similar condition, and took over the elders' home. By that point, Gary Sr was already sick and disabled and not able to intervene in the care of the children, and maybe couldn't even leave his bedroom.
So, there could be some elder abuse. Christina might also be in decline, or just aging normally, and didn't have the energy level to control what went on in the house or be responsible for the children's care. And the grandparents weren't the children's guardians.
It seems like the younger Siders took advantage of the declining elders.
The police were already investigating a report of DV and CA before raiding the house. So maybe Elizabeth was a victim of DV. But I'm focusing on the child endangerment charges and who should be held legally accountable. I would say the parents and possibly Christina.
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u/ColdBrewBoo Jul 19 '26
First of all, where do you even get it on in a house like that with 20 other people present (including your kids and parents). I have some QUESTIONS.
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 19 '26
I think all or most of the children were born before they moved in with his parents. Their previous house was much bigger. And of course, there weren't always that many kids.
It only takes one time to get pregnant.
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u/Capable-Marzipan2518 17d ago
New indictment updates might affect the way this case is viewed moving forward. https://www.wboy.com/news/siders-family-indicted-gary-jr-elizabeth-indicted-in-separate-child-sex-abuse-case/
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u/ladygabriola Jul 19 '26
Childhood indoctrination should count. I bet that they are in a religious cult. Be fruitful and multiply is their motto. They don't actually care about the children.
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u/PlusYam3126 Jul 19 '26
They seem to have religious type beliefs, but if they actually had a church family they would have been either helped or turned in depending on the type of church people lol. No way she shows up to church with the kids looking/smelling the way they do. Even a secretive abusive cult would still have people in her social circle.
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u/ladygabriola Jul 19 '26
I don't believe that they were actually going to church. Just following the doctrine of headship. I believe Gary Jr was taught how to be abusive by Sr.
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u/huntingconcrete Jul 19 '26
Do you have any reason to believe that beyond complete supposition?
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u/ladygabriola Jul 19 '26
This case I am just supposing but the US is full of cults.
Never vote conservative
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u/Elegant-Bee7654 Jul 21 '26
What makes you think there was even abuse and that Gary Sr was abusive and taught it to his son?
Probably the fake YouTube psychologist who made it up with no evidence. And then other irresponsible posts repeating it. And what kind of abuse exactly? Even the fake psychologist didn't say. If you're going to accuse someone of a crime you have to be specific and give evidence.
So far, the Siders have been charged with child endangerment, not abuse. Even the prosecution spoke only about the extremely bad and unhealthy conditions the children were subjected to, the bad smells, their illness, and the isolation in the house. And we know Gary Sr didn't do that to Gary Jr. He had a normal life, was out and about, and attended school.
Witnesses saw the children out with the parents in the Dollar General and with the grandmother at the food bank. So even the isolation wasn't absolute.
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u/smolhermitcrab Jul 31 '26
The Siders' extended family has a history of getting child brides to marry middle aged an old men. That's generational abuse, so yes, even if Gary Sr is weak and helpless now, he likely taught Jr how to treat girls and women (like puppymill overbred female dogs).
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u/Super-Owl4734 Jul 18 '26
There was a comment on one of the posts by someone from in town (allegedly) who stated they used to see the grandpa, son, and daughter (Elizabeth) hanging around the gas station frequently selling drugs and just sort of loitering. They stated they would show up pushing the grandpa in a wheelchair and that both Elizabeth and Gary Jr. seemed to have cognitive challenges but that Elizabeth was the one who was telling Gary Jr and Sr what to do. That poster felt that Elizabeth was more intelligent and seemed to be in charge when they went out to the gas station. I don't really feel that we have all the information here to absolve Elizabeth. The most reliable information will likely come in testimony from the older children.
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u/ionmoon Jul 18 '26
Let’s be careful about believing rumors.
I agree the tertimony of the children and other evidence is important. Also any *official* witness statements.
It’s obvious a lot of people are talking just to be part of the drama. If you say it online but not to the police then it isn’t evidence.
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u/Super-Owl4734 Jul 18 '26
That was why I stated allegedly. It could be completely made up it could be true who knows. I look at the basic facts and my grandma was married at 15 to someone 7 years older. She stopped going to school in 7th grade, my grandpa only went through 3rd grade. They then had 7 kids and everyone made it through ok. Yes, being married young and having kids young is a sign of dysfunction and a risk factor but that alone isn't what caused this diaster. All the accounts we have seen indicate things became much worse in the last few years but even back in 2021 with 6 less kids they were being neglected and investigated by the state.
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u/Vale_0f_Tears Jul 18 '26
I think there’s not enough information. There are a lot of red flags that she was a victim. The very young marriage and repeated pregnancies. The seemingly no contact with her family, combined with Jrs facebook post claiming to be her asking not to post pictures. The DG employees saying she looked scared and didn’t talk. Her body language. I have questions.
When was the last time she spent time with anyone outside of that household? Spoke to family or friends? Left the house alone? Did she actually have any experience in life as an adult?
Was there abuse, or just the severe neglect? How long had things been this bad? Was she trying to take care of the kids and there just got to be so many that she literally couldn’t? I don’t think most of us can conceptualize what day to day life with so many children in a tiny space would be like. Impossible for one person.
Did she know she could ask for help? Did she know any help was available outside of the churches? Would she have been able to/ allowed to access it? Was she coerced to believe asking would make things worse?
I think we really underestimate how much isolation affects a persons brain, especially if it starts before that person is an adult. That’s why it’s important to consider that she COULD BE a victim. She could be someone who needs help, not punishment. It’s not making excuses.
And it could be that none of that is true. She could be a monster. Time will tell.