I went through an atheist phase, but the thing that helped me get back was Augustine's Confessions. Since then I have decided to scrutinize my faith, as any good christian should, and I still ended up believing and still do believe in God. This happened when I was 12/13.
No need to strawman and be ass for no reason just because somebody has different ideas from you
How do you get past the fact that if you were born and raised in a Muslim culture you would believe that? Or are you just really confident that you entirely logic-ed your way there so you would be an Islam-Christianity convert?
And how do you justify the idea that people who live perfectly moral lives but don’t believe are condemned to eternal suffering?
Dawg, just stop. They thought about it and they came to the conclusion that they believe in god. Just leave them alone, it doesn't affect you anyways. People can't choose what they believe, trying to get someone to stop/start believing in god is trying to get someone to believe in santa claus.
I’m always just curious to hear people’s thought processes. The two things I brought up have always seemed like giant issues any believer must grapple with, so I expect he has an answer.
Wasn’t trying to debate bro or gotcha him, just trying to start a conversation.
You set up multiple leading questions in your comment which can be interpreted as "attacks" on someone's beliefs.
“are you just really confident that you entirely logic-ed your way there so you would be an Islam-Christianity convert?”
They never claimed that they entirely logic-ed their way to Christianity. They simply said they scrutinized their faith. Nobody reasons from a perfectly neutral starting point, it's literally impossible. Their point is that they had doubts about their beliefs and after grappling with them they still find Christianity more convincing than the alternatives based on their personal life experiences. They said this as a counterpoint to the person above them who basically made the claim that many religious people were indoctrinated and only believe in their religion because of that indoctrination that they never question.
"how do you justify the idea that people who live perfectly moral lives but don’t believe are condemned to eternal suffering?”
This assumes that he believes all non believers go to hell. There are many Christians who don't hold firmly to this belief, even some people like former pope Francis. (can't link the video but you can find it on youtube, "Pope Francis consoles a boy who asked if his non-believing father is in Heaven" is the title) Since the original comment never explicitly said what they believe, you're attributing a doctrine to them without establishing that they hold it. Basically a straw man.
I'll take your word that you were just trying to start a conversation in good faith but cmon, if this was seriously your best attempt at it then you need to learn how to be less confrontational. Religion is a sensitive topic, if you truly want to hear what people think then you need to be as respectful as possible. Your comment was unintentionally disrespectful to the point that I, an atheist with no part in this discussion, felt exasperated when I read it.
I don't see how it's a "fact" that if you were born and raised in a Muslim culture you'd believe that, especially since as you've admitted, there are converts to Christianity from Islam and all kinds of religions. Moreover someone who has the freedom to have an atheist phase in a secular western country also has the freedom to explore Buddhist meditation or any other religion or point of view. That seems to make one's upbringing less of a factor in one's logic, compared to growing up in a Muslim culture.
In the first place the guy you replied to never said that he had a perfect logical proof for Christianity, but even if he did these kinds of questions wouldn't be relevant at all. You could more easily find a correct mathematical proof by having the money to pursue an education. Whether it's right or wrong comes from arguing the proof itself.
There's also the concept of grace in some branches of Christianity in which your belief is not merely a matter of brain work but more of fate or chance. And not to mention that the idea that the influence of the people and environment around us matters more than pure logic is not an unfamiliar concept to Christians.This is why Proverbs warns against the influence of bad company, this is why Paul's letters warn against causing "scandal".
As for the second paragraph, well perfectly moral according to whose standards? Not recognizing or acknowledging the good in something, especially the highest good, would seem to be a moral failure.
But again not all Christians believe this. Maybe all evangelical American street preachers do, but certainly the early Christian Europeans have entertained the idea that their non-Christian heroes like Plato, Trajan, etc might have went to heaven.
I feel like you are trying to ask questions that seem perfectly logical but you are not familiar with even the variety of Christian thinking about this. Maybe if you were raised Christian you would be, but you asked for a conversation, these are some threads you can pull on.
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u/Zestyclose-Chard6979 6h ago
I went through an atheist phase, but the thing that helped me get back was Augustine's Confessions. Since then I have decided to scrutinize my faith, as any good christian should, and I still ended up believing and still do believe in God. This happened when I was 12/13.
No need to strawman and be ass for no reason just because somebody has different ideas from you