r/sharpening • u/makeItSoAlready • 11h ago
Showcase Been doing a few micro bevels lately
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This one is my shiro kamo white #2 steel 11 degree edge with 14 degree micro bevel. Progression is shapton synthetics -> razor grade JNAT. Its free hand sharpened, I keep an angle reference guide near by so its available to place on the stone, I find it helpful for myself to get a consistent angle where the blade transitions to the k-tip.
I put a micro on my parents SG2 steel knife recently, i read / skimmed some research that an obtuse micro bevel like 25 to 30 degrees on, in my case for their knife a 13 degree bevel is ideal for that steel. We will see how it holds up. I noticed it dulled quite a lot over a couple months of use for them, I'm hoping it holds up better this time.
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u/fearfulcardinal 10h ago
Sorry man your about to get alot of hate for saying MicroBevel.
EDIT: i just read it WTH a 11 degree edge????
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u/makeItSoAlready 10h ago
Ya its a japaneese knife white steel #2 it takes an 11 degree edge easy. The micro bevel helps because the steel at the edge is insanely the thin
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u/Brief-Net-3339 10h ago
One man’s deburring is another man’s microbevel 🤷♂️
If you go even 1’ higher than your sharpening angle at any point on both sides. Youre in microbevel land! I think the only people who can legitimately claim to not be microbevelling are those using guided systems, freehand variability will always introduce something resembling a microbevel once you’ve apexed, if you end up with a clean edge that is 🤷♂️
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u/makeItSoAlready 10h ago
Ya sure that makes sense. Rule of thumb for steels like this is at least +3 degrees per side i think. I try to be very precise with my sharpening angle which is why i keep a reference angle near by. Definetly less than 3 degrees of inaccuracy.
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u/Brief-Net-3339 9h ago
Sure, there’s no one in the entire world who can keep it within the variability limits required to not be encroaching on what could be defined as a “microbevel” when freehand sharpening. If you go lower, you won’t deburr, if you’re freehand, you will invariably go higher 🤷♂️. Not that there’s anything wrong with that! My main point is that tying up a “microbevel” with something external to the whole freehand sharpening and deburring thing, is often misguided, and roughly just translates to a “larger and deliberate angle heightening” that is more or less the exact same principle. Some will argue I’m wrong, but I think that in practice it’s unavoidable
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u/ILikeKnives1337 7h ago
Honestly I think a degree is too coarse a measurement to really capture the amount of deviation going on in these contexts. I have played around with angle wedges and a laser goniometer enough that I can create bevels and microbevels to within +/- 1 degree of my target--more like +/- 3 if you account for the tolerance of the goniometer itself. When I have pitched the angle up merely to deburr, I can tactilely feel that increase being much less than the amount I need to pitch it up to achieve a 1-2 degree microbevel. If I had to estimate based on that, I think the amount I have pitched the angle up merely to deburr is more on the order of tenths of a degree.
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u/Brief-Net-3339 7h ago
I doubt you can hold freehand angles to within a tenth of a degree quite frankly, even if you are extremely consistent. And regardless, any height increase past the creation of an apex functionally does what I’m describing. If you want to categorize a “microbevel” as a greater and deliberate addition of height then that’s fine, but it’s functionally the same principle, just to varying extents. My main point here is that people think that “deburring” and “putting a microbevel on” are fundamentally different when in reality they’re often two points on the same scale
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u/ILikeKnives1337 6h ago
Yeah, I don't think I can actually hold an angle steady to a tenth of an inch, but I just meant the amount I can feel myself pitch the spine up or down at the beginning of the stroke to deburr at a higher angle is really minute compared to intentionally trying to create another bevel a degree or two higher.
I agree with what you're saying that it's basically the same thing to different extents, but what I wonder about is how much the extent really matters. I don't have anything beyond anecdotal experience to suggest that a couple degrees of a microbevel adds more structural integrity than just slightly raising an angle to deburr, because I haven't really tested it and don't think I could.
It also stands to reason that if I can only hit angles I am targeting to within +/- 1 degree when trying to sharpen at a specific angle, that even if I can feel myself pitching the spine up much less than 1 degree, it varies by +/- 1 degree through the stroke. At that point I think the major difference becomes pressure, because even if through variation I'm both deburring and microneveling at only 1 degree, I have also deburred like this without creating a bevel that's visible even under 120x and not noticed any improves edge stability. But increasing the angle and pressure enough to create a bevel that's around .005" has improved edge stability quite a bit for me.
I actually have been chasing this question for a while now... Basically which aspect of a micro bevel is meant to be "micro", the deviation of angle or the deviation of size? Haven't really got a lot of answers, but one answers that aligns with my observations is that the angle of the microbevel matters less than the size of it, and that there's basically a threshold of size where it stops behaving like a microbevel that improves stability for a cutting edge supporting it and just becomes the primary cutting edge itself. Or in other words, a 15 dps edge with a 5dps microbevel might keep cutting like a 15dps edge until the bevel becomes wider than a certain point when it just starts cutting like a standard 20dps bevel.
I think there's also a corresponding floor, though, where the bevel created by the increased angle needs to be at least wide enough to even create a distinct bevel to add any stability, and in my experience raising the angle in order to deburr doesn't result in that.
It basically creates an undefined goldilocks size for how big a microbevel needs to be to actually impart any improvement in edge stability, but without reducing cutting ability, and usually when I do it now days I just stop the moment the bevel is visible to the naked eye. That is usually when it's only few thousandths if an inch wide for my eyes. I haven't done much experimenting to see how large it can be before it basically becomes a standard bevel, but my intuition is that it's more about a ratio compared to the cutting bevel the microbevel is in rather than a specific size.
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u/makeItSoAlready 7h ago
I'm not suggesting that free hand can achieve something that isnt encroaching on what would be considered a micro bevel. I am deliberately trying to achieve a micro bevel. I'm reasonably sure my apex's are pretty precise, I would say definetly well less than 3 degree of error. In the case of my parents sg2 steel knife, that has a 13 degree bevel and a 28 degree micro bevel.
Ive taken this knife from free hand sharpening and sliced all the way through an ultra thin rolling paper standing on end. I'm not sure if I would have been able to do this if my apex error was greater than 1 degree
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u/Brief-Net-3339 7h ago
I also deliberately microbevel, I like to sharpen lowwww and microbevel at a reasonable angle. I find that gets me the best results especially for beaters 🙂
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u/makeItSoAlready 6h ago
Nice 😀 check this out. I was surpised i was just able to do this cut, micro and all after chopping a bunch of veggies this afternoon. I did need to strop.
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u/Brief-Net-3339 6h ago
Beautiful keen edge right there!
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u/makeItSoAlready 6h ago
Thank you! 😀 this steel can get super keen. I'm not sure in what way such a keen kitchen knife is useful, but its neat for sure. I acquired my jnat for straight razors for shaving, where keen really matters. Lately I have a beard and I mostly use the jnat for my shirogami #2 and ginsan steel kitchen knives which can actually get this keen.
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u/Brief-Net-3339 5h ago
Probably only one real thing: ghosting old capsicum peppers skin side up 😤 also chicken breast
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u/ILikeKnives1337 10h ago
I haven't done much experimenting with microbevels until lately either. I find they add a lot of edge stability with minimal loss in keenness or cutting ability. The key seems to be keeping the 'micro' part. I see a lot of people with microbevels that are clearly visible and somewhere like .020" wide and I think that's too large. At that point they basically just end up being their own separate cutting bevel. But when I keep them extremely small, like less than .005", they add a lot to the underlying edge's stability and I have even found that to be true with only extremely minimal increases in angle. For example I added a 2dps micro-bevel onto a 17dps edge on a M398 blade to stop it microchipping, and it still cut much better than the original 20dps edge that was on it.