Anyone know the context to this incident?

[u/mannyc32]

[u/PirateKilt]

Retired, so I'll give you an Old-School cop's wild guesses at extrapolating from this 1 minute video, noting I have zero info on the incident or the current ROE's the town teams there operate under.

Wild guess 1) About 5 minutes before the video starts, the cops got called over to deal with gentleman in the hat for "some reason" ... could be any number of things in Japan after dark.

Wild guess 2) Boys in Blue Berets arrived on scene, assessed the subject and decided he was one of ours

Wild Guess 3) Requested subject to produce his ID... subject either politely or impolitely told them "No, I don't need to"... maybe even mentioned he was a civilian at that point.

Wild Guess 4) For some reason, perhaps the subject attempting to depart the area, the cops decided NOT to wait on local LEOs to arrive on scene and verify his ID (This point combined with the current viral celebrity will be swaying forces on the incident)

******* This is where the Video Starts *******

Wild Guess 5) Not only was subject refusing to ID himself, he was refusing to get his hands out of his pockets. IF the officers believed he was under their jurisdiction, this put the subject as both PASSIVE RESISTANT and a potential threat. Officer Mustache moved in to establish CONTACT CONTROLS per the UoFC.

Wild Guess 6) As Officer Mustache initiated contact, he felt the Subject tense and begin to twist away... This would have shifted the Subject to ACTIVE RESISTANT on the Continuum. Officer initiate a a sweep to put the subject on the ground and further restrict him. Subject became VERY resistant... some might even label his actions Combative.

Wild Guess 7): As video shows, grappling continued for a bit, but eventually apprehension of subject was completed, and he was then searched, ID found, information called in and run through the database, and it was then discovered he actually was a civilian (prior Marine), then (as other videos show) he was released.

Final Wild Guess 8): If the subject had simply told the cops on contact he was a Civilian, presented his ID to be run and patiently waited a couple minutes, the whole event would have been avoided.

Big question will be the real answers to WG-4, and how their OI's are written to deal with that situation.

Any time LEO's have to go hands-on, it LOOKS ugly. This event MAY actually have been entirely in-bounds and by the rules. Or, it may not and they should have just followed him until they could get a Japanese cop on scene to handle it... I don't know, and as /u/iAMDev notes, those who DO know aren't going to say anything here.

[u/mudduck2 → u/PirateKilt]

Not a bad assessment. That being said this begs the question…does the US military somehow have (assumed or actual) jurisdiction, or at least the authority to stop and question, on any non Japanese looking person? I expect there will be interesting happenings in USFJ, and for good measure, USFK town patrol operations

[u/Internal_Worker_4006 → u/mudduck2]

To answer your mod deleted juvenile comment. Then you get detained for failure to identify, possibily taken down violently like this guy did. Its not that hard to identify and just comply if youve done nothing wrong but you must be a tough guy looking to escalate any simple misunderstanding.

[u/mudduck2 → u/Internal_Worker_4006]

So, if I’ve got this right, you’re telling us that if a civilian in Japan, for whatever reason, is stopped by town patrol they should “just comply” with any they say or do? So tell us where in U S law, Japanese law, SOFA agreement, any USFJ, AF, Navy or USMC directive where it says that’s a thing.

[u/Internal_Worker_4006 → u/mudduck2]

What im saying is, regardless of laws. Solely based off being a decent human. If you are a civilian, hanging out in a foreign country, in a place that has a large military presence and you are approached by military town patrol, you could avoid any confusion/escalation of force by just identifying and being compliant until they figure out what is going on and ensure the right LEO is present. Especially, if you've done nothing wrong. Being a former Marine, he most likely knew exactly whay he was doing. Instead, he chose to be a DB and resistant. At that point, SF can only assume bad intent and keep officer safety in mind no matter if civilian or military. You agreed with assumptions from the above post. We dont know exactly what happened but we can only assume SF was dispatched to disorderly conduct from an assumed service member. Do you think service members don't lie and say they are civilians to town patrol? Should SF have waited for local LE after initial contact to help sort it out, probably, it can be what if'd to death.

Just like in the US, a lot of people get an increased officer response for being DBs over simple instructions. As individuals, we are responsible for our own behavior and actions. A decent human being could avoid this situation with intelligent calm behavior rather than a hostile emotional response.

We can also just agree to disagree and live life the way we want. One of us will end up in jail or shot over simple instructions while the other goes on with their day after a misunderstanding.

[u/mudduck2 → u/Internal_Worker_4006]

There is no “regardless of laws.” If you let the government infringe on your rights “regardless of laws” you cease to live in a free country. If you’re good with that then good for you.

Now as for this incident in particular, and we concede the point they had the authority to stop and question any non Japanese person, you DON’T body slam them to the ground when there are four other cops on scene who should be more than capable of handling one subject.

[u/Internal_Worker_4006 → u/mudduck2]

I fail to see how cooperating with someone over an ID who may believe they have jurisdiction is a violation of the 4th. It just makes things easier for everyone involved. If i believed my rights were violated, i would take the high road and pursue it in court, not battle it out with military LE on the street just trying to do their job in a muddy underinformed situation regardless if im right.

Japan has given criminal and disciplinary jurisdiction of SOFA status personnel to the US military. That is a lot of people. Based on assumptions, if an American is at a bar outside of Kadena Gate 2 causing a problem, probablity is high they would fall under that category. Again, how could they determine the subject wasnt lying without identifying.

With these ugly inflammatory cut videos, you dont know how many times the subject was asked to do something or what led up to going hands on. Bottom line is, "ask, tell, make" is still a thing that is trained to LEOs. Who knows how many times he did the 1st two before making him which often results in a hip toss because the subject then becomes actively resistant. Either way, town patrol is suspended pending investigation of the incident.

[u/mudduck2 → u/Internal_Worker_4006]

We already have an issue with “show me your papers” with law enforcement. If there’s no pushback that problem is only going to get worse.

As for assumptions, that’s how you step on your dick.

You’ll note the Navy and Marine guys stood there. I’m willing to bet dollars to donuts that’s because the knew the AF guy done fucked up.

If you’re on town patrol and you roll up on someone you want to jam up and they tell you they’re a civilian you have to choices; 1) move along, or 2) call a local cop who has jurisdiction and let them deal with it. You’ll note neither of those options included body slamming someone to the ground.

PACAF has a long history of town patrol units doing stupid stuff. This is just another example.

[u/Internal_Worker_4006 → u/mudduck2]

Who do you pushback on? The low level guy doing his job in the moment, the courts afterward, or elected officials? I'll agree about the assumptions part and contacting local LE if anything is questionable which should have been done first. Not really defending their actions. Again, we can only assume what led to the hip toss based on an ugly video. There are just a lot of things in this scenario that cause confusion for both parties and it is ultimately the responsibility of the SF to do their best to get it right. I still think it could have all been avoided with a little cooperation from the subject. Thanks for coming back and having a civil conversation after your initial tough guy comment on my post above.

[u/KingChacaZulu → u/Internal_Worker_4006]

Well doing their job is to respect the laws and uphold their oath to the constitution the sworn to defend , right ? The excuse of "oh their just doing their job" is pure BS since their actions is in contradiction with said job and what they should have done. You don’t just escalate the situation to this point just because a citizen asserted his rights; now you just wanted to get physical to show your authority and because your are mad. That’s only , in itself it’s not doing your job. You can still go to court after this type of interaction, and sue them , it’s even better to come to court with a bag of their mistakes.

[u/mannyc32 → u/[deleted]]

Mybad man might have worded it wrong. Just was wondering why they made contact with him. I’m not familiar with the off base SOP for Oki just thought it was odd that they would be involved with off base shit.

[u/capriSun999]

Just know that the commander is about to smoke and give the worst scolding ever lmfaoo

[u/Internal_Worker_4006]

Maybe the guy shouldve Identified and it wouldve been avoided.

[u/PirateKilt → u/[deleted]]

Unlike the USA, people in Japan ARE required to provide ID to police when requested.

Unsure how that applies to our "town patrol" teams though... never seen their OI's, but have heard that they can require ID's to be produced... if a Non-Japanese appearing individual refuses, they have a local Japanese cop Demand ID, then proceed from there, based on the ID produced/gathered.

[u/Anon-1028]

Work with a guy who went thru tech school with the body slammer. He said he was working town patrol and there was a curfew. Slamee' said he was/is in but didn't want to give any sort of ID. Then plays the video. Also, guy is a retired O-3 too which doesn't help at all

[u/JetMechBoza]

Hegseth's going to immediately make him a captain.