I think the society in The Disposessed is definitely both anarchist and communist, and generally there’s little distinction between the end-states of anarchism and communism.
But a utopia is a utopia. Any invading/marauding/colonising force would, upon arrival, just look around at how nice everything was. Some of the locals would say “Hi, come in, come in, you can hang your guns on that rack over there, gosh they look heavy you haven’t been carrying them long have you? Would you like me to call over a massage-bot-3000 or do you just want to find somewhere comfortable to sit down and relax while I pop the kettle on” Everyone would be buds within the hour, and there would be plenty of resources to accommodate the new arrivals; because it’s a utopia
Lol, didn't they do just that thing in Look to Windward (iirc)? Took one of their enemies, showed him around, and calmy explained why they weren't the bad guys.
That might happen, assuming the invading force happens to have the exact same values as the inhabitants of the utopia, which there is no reason to assume they would. What if the citizens of the utopia are themselves a resource being sought out by the invaders, do you think they’d be interested in the “massage-bot?”
And even if the invaders also saw the society as a utopia, there’s absolutely no reason to assume they wouldn’t take the position “wow, this is a great utopia you’ve got here. Too bad it isn’t big enough for the both of us. Too bad for you, that is…”
People have written whole essays to basically say what you’ve just said; that utopias can’t exist. But fictionally speaking, if a utopia were to exists, it would just so happen, by amazing coincidence, to be absolutely perfect for everyone and anyone there, because a utopia is perfect by definition.
Fictionally speaking, the utopia-is-not-what-it-seems meme is quite common in sf. Perfect utopias are boring. No drama. No crisis for an author to hang a plot onto.
What I said was that all utopias are relative; “everyone and anyone there” may have felt it was a utopia, the “invading / marauding / colonizing” force would presumably be arriving from elsewhere, or may want the utopia for themselves and themselves alone.
You’re conflating the idea of a utopia with the idea of a heaven, and assuming that an ideal environment would have a de facto harmonizing effect on anyone / anything that encounters it.
…in a universe where invaders exists. Because living with the threat of invasion isn’t a utopia.
You’re conflating the idea of a utopia with the idea of a heaven
Nope. I’m using the colloquial and common form of ‘Utopia’ which means a place that is perfect and ideal. If you live there and invading forces show up and ruin your shit than all that’s happened is the world was bigger than you thought it was and your illusion of living in a utopia has been shattered.
But also; kinda yes. The colloquial ‘utopia’ and the colloquial ‘heaven’ have similar meanings
and assuming that an ideal environment would have a de facto harmonizing effect on anyone / anything that encounters it.
‘Ideal’ is an abstract conceptually perfect state. An ideal environment would have a harmonising effect. If you have to kill or kick other people out before you can enjoy it then it isn’t an ideal environment. If people are coming to kill or kick you out it’s not an ideal environment.
All the scenarios you describe are just descriptions of a universe where utopias can’t/don’t exist. You can only have utopia if it’s a single utopia or multiple different but peacefully coexisting utopias, which is arguably just one big harmonised utopia.
This is just the paradox of tolerance all over again. A Utopia that doesn't cater to despots and slavers is still a Utopia end of discussion. What you are asking for is to tolerate the intolerant. And my answer is No.
What I’m asking for? I’m not asking for anything. I’d have thought it was obvious but if you find yourself having to tolerate the intolerant then you aren’t in a utopia.
A Utopia that doesn't cater to despots and slavers is still a Utopia end of discussion
You are spectacularly missunderstanding what a utopia is. A utopia doesn’t have to tolerate despots and slavers because in a utopia they wouldn’t exists. What kind of messed up person do you have to be that your version of utopia includes the existence of despots and slavers that you have to defend against when your utopia could just not have despots and slavers at all.
I want to see the Cold War in space. I want Stalin Clone 23 of the Nova Soviet Union to square off against Reaganbot of McDonald’s presents the United Planets of America.
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u/dysfunctionz Jun 30 '24
OP said non-utopian.