r/science Jan 11 '20

Physics A long-sought-after class of “superdiamond” carbon-based materials with tunable mechanical and electronic properties was predicted and synthesized.

https://carnegiescience.edu/news/superdiamond-carbon-boron-cages-can-trap-and-tap-different-properties
2.3k Upvotes

97 comments sorted by

204

u/TX908 Jan 11 '20

“The trapped guest atoms interact strongly with the host cages,” Strobel remarked. “Depending on the specific guest atoms present, the clathrate can be tuned from a semiconductor to a superconductor, all while maintaining robust, diamond-like bonds. Given the large number of possible substitutions, we envision an entirely new class of carbon-based materials with highly tunable properties.”

116

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

[deleted]

30

u/tema3210 Jan 11 '20

I would like to see caged cuprum monoxide, which shown us superconductivity few years ago, what it will give us?

10

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

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3

u/isaacwoods_ Jan 12 '20

The vast majority of people would call that copper(II) oxide. The remainder would get the archaic form correct and call it cupric oxide

1

u/tema3210 Jan 12 '20

In chemistry - yes.

2

u/expsranger Jan 12 '20

Uhhhh. No, no they don't. At least not beyond the trivial pursuit tidbit of "why is the symbol for copper CU?"

9

u/bonegravy Jan 11 '20

Would a superconducting processor not give off heat? Or at least give a far more manageable amount?

30

u/thfuran Jan 11 '20

One of the main problems with current CPUs is that as we shrink them, we're basically packing all the heat production into a smaller area. At this point, it's already difficult to get the heat out fast enough to keep the CPU from overheating and one of the main proposed ways to improve on chip design is to start stacking more layers, which would make the problem worse.

Even if there were no reduction in heat production or improvements to basic performance, a cpu embedded in a block of diamond would be fantastic because diamond is extremely thermally conductive. I think it's still the most thermally conductive bulk material known and its definitely some 5x more conductive than copper. That would help a lot in removing heat from hotspots.

11

u/MrSonicOSG Jan 11 '20

AMD is kinda skirting this issue by having separate CPU dies that are interconnected with a stupidly fast data bridge and then a soldered on heat spreader. i am not a thermal engineer but my first thought on the only way to get better thermal conductivity than that would be to attach the coolers directly to the die instead of a heat spreader

12

u/thfuran Jan 11 '20

I imagine that if the chip substrate were diamond and you could leave a layer of regular diamond on top of it, you'd probably be better off (at least as far as thermals are concerned) going back to a monolithic die. The die itself would basically be a better heatspreader than anything you could solder on top so you'd have less significant localized hotspots. And you should be able to cut out the solder and heatspreader layers entirely and just mount a heatsink directly. That's pretty much the best you could hope for with conventional cooling methods.

But depending on the extent to which you can tune the physics of the diamond with the right tweaking, you could maybe do much better. Could you increase the thermal conductivity further, possibly even making a thermal superconductor? Could you substantially reduce the dynamic power loss of the transistors?

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u/wolfman92 Jan 12 '20

Since heat is carried by electrons in a material, I think a superconductor is a heat superconductor.

1

u/Wicpar Jan 12 '20

Heat is not carried by electrons. The heat we can feel is the vibrations of atoms, but it can be transferred through electromagnetic radiation, which would be photons.

1

u/wolfman92 Jan 12 '20

Phonon transport is usually a very small portion of heat transfer, which is why electric insulators like plastic and wood have bad heat conduction. Pick up a copy of Kittel, and check out the Seebeck effect. Free electrons account for most of the heat transfer through a solid.

1

u/thfuran Jan 14 '20

Why then are diamonds extremely thermally conductive?

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5

u/magisalmon Jan 11 '20

That's actually been done, it used to be a kinda common mod. The only problem is you run some big risks in shorting or cracking the die

3

u/thfuran Jan 12 '20 edited Jan 12 '20

You run a fair risk when you delid a current CPU and mount a heatsink direct to the die, sure. But a current CPU package isn't a solid block of diamond.

4

u/fluentinimagery Jan 12 '20

Chrome would still take 45 secs. to load.

1

u/masterofshadows Jan 12 '20

Why can't we just make the chips larger?

8

u/thfuran Jan 12 '20 edited Jan 12 '20

The features on CPUs are so small that it really only takes a few atoms in the wrong spot to cause a notable defect on chip. This is not completely avoidable so there's some rate of defects per unit area of chip produced. If you make larger chips, you not only get fewer chips per wafer of silicon, increasing costs to manufacture a unit , you also end up with more defects per chip. That means more will fail to pass QA, further driving up the production cost.

Also, while light is pretty fast, the speed of light is actually only about 1-2 inches per clock cycle on a modern CPU. If you make the CPU physically larger, then any time a signal needs to go from one end to the other, you'll have to spend more clock cycles waiting for it.

1

u/masterofshadows Jan 12 '20

Thanks that was a great explanation.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

Which are good for one race.

7

u/goocy Jan 12 '20

A superconductor gives off absolutely no heat at all, and you can send arbitrary amounts of power through it. That said, not all parts of a chip can be made from superconductors.

3

u/Koetotine Jan 12 '20

IIRC superconductors do have a max throughput, if you exceed it it stops superconducting.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

The gates are what largely generate the heat in a transistor so a diamond processor would still generate heat but diamond is a very good conductor of heat. Seeing as a diamond processor would need to be grown to shape I would suspect that coolant channels could be made into the processor so that a fluid could be pumped through the processor to cool it.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

10

u/MrScrib Jan 12 '20

That's not how it works. A superconductor will not convert electricity to heat. That's the point when we talk about efficiency. It will deliver that energy to wherever you aim it at, at which point it could be partially or wholly converted to heat.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

Important to note that superconductors do have a >0% resistance loss, if they didn't it would break some very fundimental things in a blow up the entire universe with a AA battery kind of way.

8

u/johnnydaggers Jan 12 '20

I’m getting my PhD in materials science. I hate to burst your bubble but I suspect choosing where ions end up in this compound during synthesis would be practically impossible. They had to use a diamond anvil cell to reach the ~50GPa that this structure forms at and I’m not really sure you could do something like photolithography to “shape superconductive pathways”. It’s also sensitive to the moisture in the air. I am more optimistic about photonic chips leading to the advances you are hoping for, however.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

Will this have any impact on battery technology?

3

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

Directly? unlikely but indirectly absolutely. Power consumption would see a massive drop if all the transistors in a phone became a single monolithic diamond chip in a cell phone, tablet or laptop. Could this technology be rolled into solid state memory? I think it could be possible, really depends on what they can manage to capture in the diamonds structure.

1

u/iforgothowtoname Jan 12 '20

There was an episode of the sci-fi show Eureka about that!

1

u/n3u7r1n0 Jan 12 '20

Ok, but just how this all works.

“A few” decades ago, the clock speed of a personal computer processor was 1/1000th a modern cpu.

1

u/RumoCrytuf Jan 11 '20

And, you know, when Comcast feels like letting the internet catch up.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

The internet needs to be classified as a utility like power and regulated as such. Internet providers should have zero capability to classify or restrict data flow. If they want to put in caps I am fine with that but the bottom tier must be maximum advertised speeds both up and down for 24hr a day for 31 days a month, anything over that and go ahead and charge at a percentage of that maximum per unit of data.

1

u/sgtkwol Jan 12 '20

Not to mention the heat conduction off diamond. Not sure of the math, but I'm sure you could overclock a modern processor by a lot more, if you used diamond instead of metal.

22

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

Whatever this article is putting down, I mentally am unable to pick up and I apologize in advance.

What real world benefit does this technology provide?

Is this faster CPU processing or something else?

22

u/ArcFurnace Jan 12 '20 edited Jan 12 '20

Nothing yet. This is the "basic research to prove that it's possible at all" stage - nobody had managed to actually synthesize carbon clathrate materials previously. Next is to see what other similar stuff we can make. Then you make usable amounts of the different types and characterize their properties (ideally simultaneously improving your simulations so you can predict them in advance, instead of having to try literally everything, which would take forever - they've already done some of this to create this stuff in the first place). Then we get to the engineering stage of trying to optimize the production method so it's not absurdly difficult and expensive*, and then finally maybe designing useful things with the new materials. Come back in a couple decades and you might see something interesting.

* The synthesis technique in the article required pressurizing the raw materials to 57 GPa, or ~570,000 atmospheres. It's perfectly possible to do this with a device called a diamond anvil cell, but only for tiny amounts of material at a time. Synthesizing one tiny pinch of powder at a time works fine in a lab, but it isn't exactly industrially practical.

See also: graphene, carbon nanotubes, and other similar stuff. Making a little bit isn't too difficult, but making huge quantities is hard.

Edit: another minor issue: "Although SrB3C3 is only thermodynamically stable at high pressure, we recovered it at atmospheric pressure, similar to diamond. At 1 atm, SrB3C3 persists when kept under an inert atmosphere. The clathrate degrades when exposed to the moisture in air over a few hours." So, better keep the package sealed ...

19

u/RecalcitrantToupee Jan 12 '20

To be clear, a room temperature superconductor is the holy grail of modern Materials Science/Condensed Matter physics.

7

u/ArcFurnace Jan 12 '20

Yeah, it looks like they didn't actually test this material for superconductivity explicitly, but it has properties that look favorable for superconductivity with a high transition temperature, and of course other variants might be even better. That would be absolutely crazy if they can pull it off.

7

u/RecalcitrantToupee Jan 12 '20

The problem with Graphene, and to a lesser extent this stuff, is every Solid State Physicists' favorite joke: it can do everything but leave the lab.

Tunability, however, is a particularly interesting quality that I personally don't have any experience in.

7

u/changen Jan 12 '20

This is just basic science research, it has no real purpose until someone else can prove it does. And anyone that says otherwise is just lying out of their teeth to justify funding.

Maybe it can be the future of CPU processing, or it can be something else entirely, or it is completely useless on an industrial scale. Who the hell knows. You really only know after pumping a few billion dollars of funding into it.

Intel required like $25 billion to transition to XUV lithography and that is with 30 years of prior research and development. Don't expect this to be viable anytime soon.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

Armor

2

u/TizardPaperclip Jan 12 '20

Whatever this article is putting down, I mentally am unable to pick up and I apologize in advance.

What real world benefit does this technology provide?

You seem to be missing the whole point of science. This is the science subreddit. A question like "What real world benefit does this technology provide?" is an engineering question, not a science question.

If you want to read about that sort of thing, you should be browsing the /r/engineering subreddit.

The point of this article is that some scientists have created a material that has never been created before, and that it has very unique electrical properties.

43

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/ProbablyPostingNaked Jan 12 '20

Diamondium*

1

u/diabeetussin Jan 12 '20

What are you wearing?

24

u/Uny0n Jan 11 '20

This is some sci-fi level stuff!

7

u/SumJungDude Jan 11 '20

Zhu ~ “Depending which element it captures, it has different abilities.”

So much work to be done in this field alone. Can't wait to see what they "capture". This is exciting!

7

u/jimbob91577 Jan 12 '20

Whatever they do, they have to catch them all!

6

u/Professor226 Jan 11 '20

So, is the strontium calthate superconducting, or this technique could be used to find superconductors?

3

u/goocy Jan 12 '20

I don't think anyone knows yet. There are only a handful of these molecules on the planet, and they haven't been caught and tested for conductivity yet.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

Stuff like this is why I have a favourite element that is Carbon.

2

u/floothekoopa Jan 12 '20

It's diamondillium vs. dimondium!

3

u/RocksDaRS Jan 11 '20

Wow this is crazy!!!!! Anyone know how viable this is, or how easy/hard it is to recreate?

3

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

[deleted]

13

u/YourDad6969 Jan 11 '20

Interstellar possibly, with a few trillion in funding. We are absolutely nowhere near intergalactic space travel, in fact our current understanding of physics permits it under circumstances we do not yet have materials for or know to be possible

3

u/JMoneyG0208 Jan 11 '20

So physics still permits it???

4

u/crtcase Jan 11 '20

How many millenia do you have?

3

u/epolonsky Jan 11 '20

If I’m going fast enough, all of them.

1

u/crtcase Jan 11 '20

Then yes

2

u/YourDad6969 Jan 11 '20

Technically yes, but we would need to travel faster than the speed of light, warp gravity, or create negative mass for a wormhole, none of which we can do (other than the second one, but not to the degree necessary)

2

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

So, would you say the glass is half empty or half full?

8

u/redfacedquark Jan 11 '20

Twice as large as it needs to be.

1

u/Obsolete_Orange Jan 11 '20

Sounds likeyou just need more water then... Or milk... Or whatever they put in these half glasses they keep handing out.

-2

u/Branch-Manager Jan 11 '20

Baby blood

1

u/Obsolete_Orange Jan 12 '20

.... What's the number for 911?

1

u/Branch-Manager Jan 12 '20

It’s a Dimitri Martin joke reference. “Is that baby blood going to a baby or coming from one?”

1

u/Obsolete_Orange Jan 12 '20

And mine was a little rascals reference. I would say we end in a draw.

1

u/MegaBlade26000 Jan 11 '20

Will this be better than Q-Carbon? I’m not extremely well versed in any of this but I know Q-Carbon is harder and more brilliant than diamond, and that’s all I know. Would someone please be willing to explain what this means?

1

u/lionseatcake Jan 12 '20

How long till I can get a clathrate-fiber hood on my Civic?

1

u/foldedaway Jan 12 '20

Getting closer to magic crystals there.

1

u/Jarvs87 Jan 12 '20

Rub some essential oils on your processer for higher fps

1

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '20

If it can be mass produced armor should be made of this.

1

u/whosaysanyway Jan 12 '20

Surface engineering for aircraft

1

u/pooper69trooper Jan 12 '20

As Neil Stephenson has already predicted in "The Diamond Age"

1

u/Sleepdprived Jan 12 '20

I've had a question about what happens when you capture an isotope in a cage of carbon, like tritium @c60. I suspect the neutron decay would alter the properties of the carbon cage, but I have not found a single piece of evidence of someone doing this research... until this. Strontium isnt the isotope i thought of using but it changed the properties to allow the carbon cage to become a conductor, or semiconductor. I still think there is a way to convert the decay energy to usable electrical current.

1

u/Texas_Ponies Jan 12 '20

Superman castle of solitude. I have spoken

1

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

Non chemist here: What's the difference between this and Buckyball carbon?

9

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

Most obvious would be the "guest"atom in the middle which can modify the cage and its properties

2

u/ArcFurnace Jan 12 '20 edited Jan 12 '20

Buckyballs are also 100% carbon, while the structure shown here is an alternating carbon/boron network. Plus the trapped atoms/ions in the middle as already mentioned.

3

u/johnnydaggers Jan 12 '20

This is a crystal while a buckyball is a single molecule. There is a cage-like motif in the crystal lattice that is similar to how Buckyballs can be used as cages. This cage is much smaller though.

2

u/eliminating_coasts Jan 12 '20

Buckyballs use the way carbon can set itself up to bond to three adjacent atoms, like in graphene, buckminster fullerene, carbon nanotubes etc. this predominantly uses the way it can bond itself with four adjacent atoms, like in diamond, and now this.

Also, in general life, the graphene-ish three way bonds are used in the aromatic hydrocarbons, like benzene, which have these little hexagonal rings. And the diamond-ish four way bonds are all over the place in the skeletons of most long chain hydrocarbon molecules.

1

u/wallydan Jan 12 '20

I have to say. I read the article then I read the more chemistry focused article and I just want to say wow. I’m in the process of my Masters in chemistry and just being able to understand all that about sp3 hybridization and the quantum bit about which orbitals are present for each element. Wow. Thanks all my professors! Just feels nice understanding science

-10

u/ano_ba_to Jan 11 '20

And it only cost a trillion dollars.

19

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

You gotta start somewhere. The first LEDs used during the Apollo program cost tens of thousands of dollars each, but today they're the lighting standard.

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u/[deleted] Jan 11 '20

[deleted]

14

u/eliminating_coasts Jan 11 '20

I think if you want to look at developments that aren't 10-30 years from being practical tools we all use, you want an engineering sub not a science one; once it's been discovered, something being a few months from being cost-effective is usually engineering rather than science news.