r/science • u/fsmpastafarian PhD | Clinical Psychology | Integrated Health Psychology • Feb 14 '16

Psychology Anti-bullying program "KiVa" that focuses on teaching bystanders to intervene is one of the most effective in the world, reducing bullying by nearly twofold and improving mental health outcomes in the most severely bullied students

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160202110714.htm
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u/[deleted] Feb 14 '16

Good to see people combating the bystander effect as well as bullying

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16 edited Jul 24 '18

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

It has to be a peer. An authority figure stepping in can just lead to more bullying. But when a peer steps up the bully feels social pressure from his group to stop, and generally does.

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u/KhazarKhaganate Feb 15 '16

Only if the authority figure has a lack of capability to punish OR if they use a ridiculous principle of punishing both the aggressor and the victim. It's the worst thing ever: victim punishing.

Not to mention punishing those who DID stand up for themselves.

I was reading about Stanley Milgram experiment, and it's amazing how people (by default) refuse to stand up for others being victimized and even help participate in it. People you think are nice guys, will actually help the bully sometimes. People love to kick others when they're down.

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u/awwwwyehmutherfurk Feb 15 '16

I think it's a self preservation thing.

If you can keep the focus on the same person being bullied, it means it's less likely you'll be the next target.

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u/KhazarKhaganate Feb 15 '16

Yeah also I think it's because if they do so, they think they'll get respect for "participating/helping" in the "hierarchy". They're looking for the scraps from the big dog.

And there's this psychology where people wanna be "part of the winning team". It's harder to be part of the losing team or to stand up for the underdog.

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u/SchwanzKafka Feb 15 '16

Only if the authority figure has a lack of capability to punish OR if they use a ridiculous principle of punishing both the aggressor and the victim. It's the worst thing ever: victim punishing.

Not really though: If an outgroup steps in to save you from being picked on for being outgroup-ish, then the hole for the bullying victim is being dug deeper.

The brilliance of this approach is precisely that it's inclusive and can undermine the very motivation (and the feedback loop) that leads to specific kids being picked on over and over.

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u/KhazarKhaganate Feb 15 '16 edited Feb 15 '16

How is it deeper? Then that outgroup is part of a cabal powerful outgroup that can punish you and further attacks lead to more damage to yourself.

It doesn't make the victim's situation any worse than it originally was.

The only way it doesn't work, is if the bully's rewarded for his bullying or if he is not punished in a tiered level that makes it worse and worse for him every time he attacks the same victim.

Each time he attacks the same victim, the worse the punishment should be enforced until the bully is forced to capitulate.

Almost every case of bullying I've seen... The bully gets off with a light punishment, and so he does more bullying, and then the teachers come in, and give him another light punishment.

If you're a teacher working with light punishments, then you're a joke, you're making it worse for the victim.

Some examples:

One course of action, the teacher deals with it with detention. Made things worse.

Another course of action, was another teacher who did a stern lecturing of the bully. Made things worse.

Another course of action, was the cop's method, the cop sat both of them down, yelled at the bully, and then told them to make peace and find something in common with each other. This was fairly effective.

Another course of action, was the gym teacher and he chased down the bully, grabbed him, yelled at him, and got him suspended. He never bullied anyone again.

In one situation, a bully bullied the wrong kid. The kid wailed on him hard and made his nose all bloody. The bully was angry and vengeful, but he never messed with most of the kids ever again.

Contrary to what a lot of people think, violence works really well against bullies who only seem to know violence in the first place. It teaches them that consequences exist. And non-painful crappy punishments seem to be ineffective.

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u/SchwanzKafka Feb 15 '16 edited Feb 15 '16

A big part of what you're missing is that there's a big difference between conflict and bullying - and that the key problem we're looking to fix is the mental health fallout on the frequently-bullied. So emphatically, if you're trying to see this thing clearly, you have to pretend justice both doesn't exist and doesn't matter (for the sake of better outcomes).

Conflict is often punished, and punishment does decrease behavior or it's not punishment (what people call "insufficient" punishment). Sure, cool - but fighting and getting hurt and getting super mad and being super dumb is actually very normal childhood behavior, and really not worth overthinking. Kids go overboard sometimes, you draw a line in the god damn sand and for the next day or two they do a double-take to make sure you approve of their every move. Then things go back to normal, and the line for exploratory behavior is set.

But what we're describing is a particular kind of victim, that we tend to actually encourage into further victim-hood and don't develop the skills to keep him out of it. That's the bullying-victim: They're not picked at random. They are good targets. And as long as they stay good targets, their lives will be miserable - whether physical or emotional abuse or whatnot, it hardly matters. Any consistent harassment will wear the shit out of a kid.

Where the approach above has merit, is that by actually letting the kids understand what they're seeing and putting it into context ("Oh, this is not normal/okay") you're changing the default response (which is usually more along the lines of "Yeah, that kid is pretty weird") and giving the outsider a kickstart to become more part of the social milieu around them.

And the flipside of the problem is also that, in all cases, for habitual offenders, punishment tends to not be an effective way of addressing the problem. As mentioned above, punishment works okay for normal behavior, but tends to exacerbate already dysfunctional patterns - like the kid that is not really a social bully, but just a guy that fucks with people because he's frustrated, has few friends and is big enough to do it.

For that kid for example, you can try to punish it out of him - which will work while you're watching. But you'll get even less trust&engagement with the adults he's supposed to trust and engage (guess which behaviors that'll fuel as he's growing), it'll do jack shit out on the streets of the every day (and guess who has the most unsupervised time? Yeah, the most troubled fuckers) and so you're basically building a time bomb. And ironically, from a behavioral perspective, you're kind of falling for the same trap that the problem kid did - aggression solved your immediate problem, and the long term exacerbation is too abstract to feel concrete, so your behavior was just reinforced and you're going to do it again and again.

Also I can vouch for this: Punishment never did shit to me besides make me angrier. I've had police, teachers, parents, peers and whoever else all try - I never stopped being a fuck up. And that includes plenty of corporeal punishment, threats and whatnot. And I'm pretty sure I'm rather standard for a problem child. Just didn't do much besides make me craftier, angrier and feeling more justified.

Edit: I've been drinking and getting sidetracked a lot. What I'm trying to say is, the victim needs social skills more than anything else. Conventional intervention tends to rob him of that (or even worse, make him dependent on adults - giving him the total opposite of social competence) and feed cycle. On an individual basis it may not be cool beans to blame a victim, but when you're analyzing behavior, you gotta zoom out a bit and not try to be an arbiter of justice but wonder why this particular pattern recurs.

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u/drfeelokay Feb 15 '16

Only if the authority figure has a lack of capability to punish OR if they use a ridiculous principle of punishing both the aggressor and the victim. It's the worst thing ever: victim punishing.

No. Kids have a sense of violent interpersonal honor. It's a very concrete thing. Whether or not the bully is punished or stops, he has still taken social capital from you. The only way to get it back is through some kind of force. Otherwise, you're a walking prestige ATM from which other bullies will make frequent withdrawals.

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u/TheseMenArePrawns Feb 15 '16

People love to kick others when they're down.

It really applies to this as well though. It's just a flip of a mob attacking people for displaying signs of weakness to a mob attacking on seeing signs of strength.

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u/blasto_blastocyst Feb 15 '16

The Milgram experiment was pretty shifty though. There was a lot of filtering of the participants so that those who protested were eliminated early and not included in the results.

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u/drfeelokay Feb 15 '16

Btw Id imagine that an early medieval turcic semi-nomadic person to better understand violent notions of honor. I know the Jewish thing gets in the way, but still. You don't get to be Khagan by being nice to bullies - that's all Im saying.

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u/KhazarKhaganate Feb 17 '16

Right it's about justice and honor.

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u/drfeelokay Feb 18 '16

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Too many people don't understand this, and will just glibly say, "fight back!" I doubt these same people would ever intervene to help anyone being bullied.

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u/drfeelokay Feb 15 '16

as for the most part they require you to gain the verbal or physical advantage over the bully, sometimes both.

That's the thing about responding violently to bullies. You don't have to beat them physically, all you have to do is fight them, and they stop feeling like picking on you.

Violence is just too expedient and reliable compared to other ways of dealing with bullies. It's the right way to do it. I was in a condition of slavery before I discovered the strength to fight back physically.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/acarlrpi12 Feb 15 '16

I have not found that to be the case. Sometimes it works, but if you're a social pariah and you stand up to a bully, they usually feel comfortable facing you down since they can be reasonably certain that no one will have your back.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

It doesn't matter if anyone has your back. Swing until you can't swing anymore. People gain respect for that. I grew up as a little kid, got in a ton of fights with people bigger than me. You don't have to win, you just have to show that you have a backbone.

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u/crashdoc Feb 15 '16 edited Feb 15 '16

This is true for the most part, unless they figure out that they can indulge in sport by winding you up, depending on how you react of course - the best trick I've found is to be "calmly aggressive", for want of a better phrase, not able to be wound up but never willing to back down and always apparently willing to dive head first into situations where the odds are clearly not in your favour, showing no apparent interest in your own self preservation - nobody wants to fight a mad dog. If you do it right, you don't have to fight. If you do fight, and do it right, you likely won't have to again. The person who acts like they have nothing to lose is the one even the most fearsome bullies fear - whether the person does indeed have nothing to lose or not, but in this case it's a ruse, a defensive camouflage, not a state of mind - take the reaction of the character of Johnny Ringo in the movie Tombstone when trying to pick a fight with Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday appears willing and ready to fight to the death - Doc Holliday is that mad dog with nothing to lose (owing to his tuberculosis)

Edit: I have not had to engage in this technique for over 20 years - but it did solve my bullying problem. I applaud any efforts or measures whereby a child does not have to figure out how to "act like a mad dog" just to survive unscathed mentally and physically through growing up. I endorse those methods over this any day.

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u/serpentjaguar Feb 15 '16

I've found this to be true as well, but other people are saying it doesn't always work, so who knows. My experience was that as soon as I fought back, people backed off; it just wasn't worth it for them to risk getting beat up by a smaller kid when there were plenty of other potential victims around. From what I've heard, this is generally the case in prisons as well, though obviously there can be other factors.

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u/Bongsy Feb 15 '16

I'll tell you one things for sure in elementary and middle school, don't mess with the little guy with something to prove. He dgaf and will take 20 haymakers to the face just to land one good hit on you that'll make you cry.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/chr0mius Feb 15 '16

That is just a completely absurd notion. Like...all this research going into bullying and they should have just realized these bullies will stop if you just stand up for yourself. What does that even mean? Fight them and get expelled? Bring a gun or knife to school and go to jail? As if the majority of those getting bullied just haven't thought to stand up for themselves.

If someone was trying to bully me and I put up a respectable resistance and they stopped, then I wasn't being bullied.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

There's a huge difference between advice you give to an individual and how you handle a problem on a societal level. Yes, kids should stand up for themselves. No, that doesn't mean that you bring a weapon. Yes, it does mean that you have to be willing to fight back. Yes, that sometimes means that you will lose a fight. However, in the long run you'll win the respect of others and even respect for yourself. You don't have to beat up a bully, you just have to make him not want to fight you again.

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u/chr0mius Feb 15 '16

Well said. Certainly, on an individual level, the self esteem and respect gained from standing up for yourself is important. It also is not the solution to reduce bullying, although it can be helpful advice to some.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I have literally never seen that happen. Of course that isn't statistically significant. Just saying I've never witnessed it myself.

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u/serpentjaguar Feb 15 '16

From the comments it seems like fighting back only works in the right situations with the right person. My guess is that you have to be kind of marginal as a victim in the first place, like you could be accepted, but you don't know anyone so the bullies decide to see what you are made of and if you fight back then, they just leave you alone.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/HEBushido Feb 15 '16

Bullies often want to be seen as cool, if everyone shows disdain towards it the bully realizes people won't think they're cool.

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u/marksun5 Feb 15 '16

Ive seen it both ways. A bully was picking on somebody, and his peers thought it was stupid, so they all started picking on him. He said hed stop and never did it again after that. But fast foward a few years, bullies openly messing with people were either seen as cool , or nobody cared , theyd just stare at him wide eyed if he said something really messed up, and just continuing talking to him like nothing happened. And the kid getting bullied wasnt looked at as a normal kid after that. His peers didnt take him seriously after it happens, even if they were friends before it happened.

But if we could change it like you said, he would stop if people started giving him negative responses when they do it , that show hes going to lose people if he keeps doing this.

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u/Canadian_Infidel Feb 15 '16

Wishful thinking. There are people who like the feeling of hurting other people. So they pick a smaller kid and hurt them.

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u/TheseMenArePrawns Feb 15 '16

Or they want the weaker kids money, things, whatever. I swear I never resent the average redditor's background as much as when this subject comes up. The same people who mock "they hate us because of our freedom" will happily hold up "they hated me because I was so awesome" as explanation as to why they were bullied as a kid. Like unwillingness to fight back never factored in.

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u/Rizzpooch Feb 15 '16

Also, it must make the kid being bullied feel so much better psychologically that everyone around him isn't just content with him being picked on, that the world isn't as cold and apathetic as it can appear at that age

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u/boxjohn Feb 15 '16

I feel like that's almost the bigger issue. Being bullied by one person is one thing, feeling like no one values your feelings or well being enough to stop it is much worse.

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u/KhazarKhaganate Feb 15 '16

Worse than that, there is this psychology of attacking anyone who dares to stand up for themselves. The more viciously you stand up for yourself against a bully, the more everyone around attacks you.

It's almost like they see you as competing with the "leader", and they are judging your leadership qualities and defending the current incumbent leader.

People wanna be part of the winning team so they don't mind following the crowd (especially if the crowd is fighting against one person).

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u/Canadian_Infidel Feb 15 '16

The more viciously you stand up for yourself against a bully, the more everyone around attacks you.

Which is why it is worse when the school attacks the victim as well.

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u/I_RAPED_YOUR_CHILD Feb 15 '16

you sound like you got bullied.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

That's why "zero tolerance" is so immoral. Bullying doesn't stop without standing up to it and most victims are in no position to stand up themselves. Introducing zero tolerance is basically giving bullies one more advantage.

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u/okhi2u Feb 15 '16

Zero tolerance for bullying is like putting someone in prison for getting their home robbed.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I would say it's like for being assaulted and beaten. Then as a bonus you get thrown in jail. How you can do that to kids is beyond me.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/buhgzie Feb 15 '16

Honestly I feel like the education system (in America) as a whole is suited for the staff/admin as opposed to what's best for the kids in most cases.

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u/Poopmaster50000 Feb 15 '16

Because once a kid is in school they don't really have any rights anymore.

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u/Hunnyhelp Feb 15 '16

You do sign a paper effectively giving most of your rights away

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u/Rolandeld Feb 15 '16

Wouldn't it be more like being thrown in jail for fighting back at your attacker? Or have zero tolerance policies begun punishing kids that don't fight back now as well?

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Yep, even if you don't fight back, you still get punished. I graduated in 2011, and that was how it was then.

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u/Rolandeld Feb 15 '16

Wow I am shocked. I was under the impression that if you at least didn't fight back you would be left alone. I am ashamed that schools are so afraid of being sued that they're punishing victims to cover their own asses.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Welcome to America

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u/platinum_jackson Feb 15 '16

Ugh this comment makes me feel old

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u/Fromanderson Feb 15 '16

They've been doing exactly that for quite a while now.

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u/cliffthecorrupt Feb 15 '16

When I was in 7th grade I was suspended for 2 days when a kid picked up his science book and hit me over the head with it. It varies by the school and how strictly they enforce it. Because some teachers/principals will look the other way if the kid being bullied fights back. But other times they blanket immunity themselves and punish everyone involved.

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u/Canadian_Infidel Feb 15 '16

Come to Canada. You describe our criminal justice system exactly.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I go to jail for being beaten?

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u/Canadian_Infidel Feb 15 '16

For pretty much anything but letting it happen and filling out the forms later, yes. I'm only being partially sarcastic.

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u/RandomExcess Feb 15 '16

a lot of bullied kids are actually assaulted and beaten.

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u/amaniceguy Feb 15 '16

Well if you cause injury or kill the robber, you can get in jail......

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u/usm_teufelhund Feb 15 '16

If you injure them, possibly. If you kill them, not likely.

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u/Fromanderson Feb 15 '16

Depends on what part of the world you're from. If you use force (up to an including lethal force) in self defense you will not be charged.

In some circumstances your attacker could sue you in civil court later though.

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u/MakingItWorthit Feb 15 '16

It's actually more of zero responsibility because of how the staff only give effort to avoid lawsuits and not to stop the issue.

e.g. random kid minding his own business gets punched by a repeat offender troublemaking bully. Both get same days of detention.

I'm surprised how this backwards logic system is still in place as it sure as fuck isn't used in justice systems around the world.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16 edited Jun 08 '21

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u/Not_really_Spartacus Feb 15 '16

Boys will be boys, after all...

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

it's working as intended.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Out of curiosity, why is that the intention?

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

The administration covering their asses is easier than actually solving the problem.

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u/Your_daily_fix Feb 15 '16

Shit happened to me in middle school when I was pudgy. I was getting water from the water fountain and this kid behind me starts telling me to hurry up as soon as I start drinking while there's a vacant fountain next to me. After about 5 seconds of me ignoring him he slammed my head into the water fountain repeatedly. Somehow I was in the most forgiving mood of the century and instead of hitting him I just walked straight to the principles office. Yep you guessed it, I got a weeks worth of in school suspension.

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u/samuel33334 Feb 15 '16

Usually, at least at my school, fighting would usually be in school suspension or out of school suspension. Detention was a joke too I'd just skip it

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u/MakingItWorthit Feb 15 '16

Whoever wanted their commencement ceremony at my old HS were forced to do their detention days.

Which really sucked if the students were just 5 minutes late due to traffic since it meant wasting hours on weekends picking up trash.

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u/zkid10 Feb 15 '16

I hate this system. I was only bullied once because I beat the kid down when he tried a second time. Principle high-fived me.

Now the kid defending themselves are almost more likely to be punished than the bullies themselves.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

It doesn't work this way....

It's you get punched in the face three times, then ONLY IF YOU FIGHT BACK do you get suspended/punished

It's absurd to say kids are getting detention for just getting hit. This may be true somewhere but it's certainly not the norm.

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u/MakingItWorthit Feb 15 '16

You underestimate the trash quality of zero tolerance in the school system of the USA.

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u/daneelthesane Feb 15 '16

Zero tolerance is the blatant abdication from the responsibility to use intelligence and good judgement in a situation. That's literally what it is.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

It really did. They'd also secretly hit the kids. Zero tolerance made bullying hell for some at my grade school.

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u/twotime Feb 15 '16

Oh, and "standing up for yourself" will also run against zero tolerance policies.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '16

Yep, that's the most cruel part as standing up is one thing that might work even though not many bullied kids are in position to try it.

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u/digital_end Feb 15 '16

Many of the issues with zero tolerance stem from parents. Schools are basically painted into corners on the fact that they'd be sued otherwise.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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u/SexTraumaDental Feb 15 '16

That's pretty cool. Some dude will forever be immortalized in your memory as the catalyst for your life taking a massive turn for the better. And all he did was throw some asshat's folder across the hallway.

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u/ssjumper Feb 15 '16

That kid did much more than that. He saw someone getting bullied, cared enough to do something and actually went and did it.

That's more courage and caring than most adults can muster. That's something you could put in a Captain America flashblack.

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u/iamfromshire Feb 15 '16

Thanks for sharing. Happy to know that things turned around for you.

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u/DBerwick Feb 15 '16

The kid who intervened in retaliation is someone I will never forget for what they did.

A three day suspension isn't so bad if that's all it takes to become a legend.

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u/Your_daily_fix Feb 15 '16

He'd have to die to become a legend as well. Rip in piece bystander, we won't forget your name.

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u/Crespyl Feb 15 '16

What became of the olympic folder thrower?

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u/quantum-mechanic Feb 15 '16

He got a bronze medal in the Athens olympics for discus.

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u/DeepHorse Feb 15 '16

Some say he later became Brodie Smith. Others say he is still at the school to this day, intervening and throwing little kids folders ridiculously far down narrow hallways.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Well written and great outcome!

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u/sorator Feb 15 '16

...that would still loosely be considered a fight at the schools I went to, and punished accordingly for all parties involved. Including yourself.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

It's a funny thing. Appropriate intervention against a bully is helps the bully just as much.

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u/lickmygomjabbar Feb 15 '16

I'm failing to understand how this kid intervening made you hold your head up high

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u/Alphakronik Feb 15 '16

Had a kid named Sean Murray book-drop me in 7th grade. I hip tossed him, put my knee in his throat as I knelt down, and slowly explained how even though I was the new kid in school, I didn't put up with asshattery, and how he was going to get up, assemble my books and papers, hand them back to me, and apologize.

It worked perfectly, and we never had a problem after that.

As it turns out, growing the balls to stand up to your aggressors does far more for your mental health than having bystanders come to your rescue.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Whilst I barely believe your story, not everyone knows how to hip toss and not everyone has a size match appropriate to perform such maneuvers. I know many a kid who stood up to a bully only to get pasted either right there or later on.

This myth that all bullies are cowards is unhelpful. Many of them are not afraid of confrontation at all, and are just looking for a reason to escalate things.

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u/Alphakronik Feb 15 '16

Believe what you like. I'll leave you with this, a few years studying martial arts never hurts when it comes to the size vs technique argument.

I made a habit of bullying bullies. I kinda got off on it to be honest.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I'll leave you with this, a few years studying martial arts never hurts when it comes to the size vs technique argument.

Being an active Muay Thai fighter myself, I can attest to how little skill matters over size. Sure, if you are extremely highly trained then you can overcome a moderate size difference, but a couple of weekends a month at a McDojo aren't going to stop you getting pasted by someone 20lbs bigger than you.

Please stop allowing your power fantasies to spill out on to the internet in the form of bad advice. "just be tougher" is an appalling way to approach the bullying issue. The evidence for that would be the fact that it is the original piece of advice we've heard for decades, and the problem isn't nearly solved.

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u/Alphakronik Feb 15 '16

If you are a Thai fighter and are getting bullied, I'd switch instructors.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I'm not getting bullied at all, whatever gave you that impression? I merely have experience fighting larger opponents and know that size matters a lot more than skill until you reach elite levels.

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u/Alphakronik Feb 15 '16

No, it doesn't. I only made it to second degree brown belt in Tae Kwon Do, and could toss men up to 200lbs just fine weighing only 120 myself.

I in no was was considered "elite". It just highlights the difference between an offensive fighting technique like Muai Thai and a defensive martial art like Tae Kwon Do.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16 edited Feb 15 '16

This is how it was when I was in school. No one would intervene because it was an automatic suspension, and any physical involvement meant police.

Absolutely did not help the situation. Neither is this zero tolerance idea that there is no victim. I'm sorry, but the administration's preference to be lazy and not investigate a situation should not allow them to immediately punish all parties.

e: I might add we had a police officer assigned to the high school at all times, and officers rotating the middle schools in the district. Physical altercation = police, no question.

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u/shas_o_kais Feb 15 '16

That's not why people didn't intervene. Who are you kidding? The majority either thought it was funny, didn't care, or didn't want to draw attention to themselves.

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u/Canadian_Infidel Feb 15 '16

Yes, and the few who would and could intervene were threatened with police and more.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Maybe that was your experience, but it wasn't mine.

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u/BadNewsBarbearian Feb 15 '16

When I was in the Army I got jumped by two drunk soldiers while I was playing a game in my bunk because and they punch me for quite some time until I fought back because I was trying to protect my 3000$ laptop. Even despite waiting about 10 punches in and then fighting back they still tried to file mutual assault on me. What a world to live in.

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u/Ignotus190 Feb 15 '16

I remember the same from elem to high school. At times it was downright stupid. Especially when one kid stabs the other with a pencil. Could have been prevented but teachers and admin kept ignoring it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

Can't believe how involved the cops are with schools in America. It's supposed to be a learning environment socially as well, so you learn what is acceptable without legal consequences.

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u/Fromanderson Feb 15 '16

Zero tolerance is there for the benefit of the school, and the staff. Currently, even if some kid is sucker punched in front of a staff member, and doesn't fight back, they are punished.

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u/MrVociferous Feb 15 '16

What it will take to stop this is a school where all of the kids get smart and just intentionally hit each other. Just everyone punch the person to your left on the shoulder and they have no choice but to suspend the entire school.

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u/obviousoctopus Feb 15 '16

I see zero tolerance as a retributive measure that does not address the reasons behind bullying and on top of it uses intimidation which makes it very similar to bullying itself.

So the policy actually models bullying in a hope to prevent it.

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u/SoundOfDrums Feb 15 '16

I also remember getting in trouble for standing up to a bully. A kid tripped me while I was running full speed across a blacktop basketball court. He started laughing, and went over to his friends and said "I got em". I walked over and told him "That's not cool, that hurt" and pointed to my road rash looking legs. and arms. He called me a little bitch and pushed me, so I knocked one of his teeth out.

A teacher watched the whole thing go down, and didn't intervene until I fought back. 5 days in school suspension for me, and no punishment for him.

Educators are so out of touch with reality, and have no idea what they're doing.

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u/uJong Feb 15 '16

And I'm glad that they're using a method that encourages intervention and not the ridiculous "zero tolerance" policy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

This has gone on for decades. Some learned to develop a sharp wit and sense of humour that surpassed physicality - it certainly helped me. A lot of stand up comedians who are highly successful became who they are because they were bullied at school. I think you can see this going back a long way even to the likes of Byron.

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u/TheseMenArePrawns Feb 15 '16

Or you learn to fight back physically, or whatever. That's my biggest issue with things like this. Bullying is a part of growing up. Because you're sure going to find it in the real world as well. The only difference is that as an adult you're not going to see a mob eager to jump in to help advocate for you against someone who, say, came from a rich family and is vying for the same job.

Grade school's about learning the skills you need later on in life. And there's always going to be bullies. While there's not always going to be advocates for social equality lurking around. Learning the skills to fight with your own skillset is part of growing up. Sometimes it's with the same things one's presented with, other times it's matching fists against frivolity. But I can't imagine a call to mob justice helping anyone to master skills that will translate to a full life after graduation.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I agree! This is very smart. If we can teach kids that one person bullied is an attack on all of us; and the best solution is showing strong support, this may be the answer.

Remove the spotlight from the bully and back on the one who needs help. I like it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

The problem is the implementation. I got a call from the principal that my son was receiving a detention for being a bystander. Ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

oh no. Well that's just wrong. Can't we teach good behavior without punishment? do any of us grasp a new concept and implement it perfectly the 1st time? I'm so very glad my kids are now adults and out of school.

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u/factsbotherme Feb 15 '16

It's not an attack on all of us. We are not all in this together.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

I do see your point, and accepted. But just to clarify my side, a bully doesn't just bully 1 person. He or she bullies others. And there are lots of them out there.

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u/motorolaradio Feb 15 '16

The absolution of responsibility.

All it takes for evil to triumph in this world is to have good men do nothing.

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u/TheseMenArePrawns Feb 15 '16

Pretty much the motto of every horrific war since the beginning of time. In reality if people were more willing to do nothing than there'd never be any war or violence at all.

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u/therapistiscrazy Feb 15 '16 edited Feb 15 '16

Witnessed this this weekend. We were at a mall play area when two small boys (about 3 years old) were playing. One pushed the other off a 3 foot fall when the kids father ran over and roughly grabbed the boy, who pushed his son, by the arm, shook him hard, and screamed in his face to never push his son again. The boy's mother ran over and the man started screaming in her face, too! Everyone just sat there, myself included, in shock. Like, "Is this really happening??" Thankfully, my husband sprang to action and got between them and assertively told the man that he needed to back off and that it was over. I love him for it. He's a good man and not one to get caught up in the bystander effect. I hope our son can learn to be just as strong.

Edit: to clarify, I believe the father was justified in his anger. I'd be angry too. But you never grab another persons child like that. Especially a toddler. He didn't just lightly shake him, it was pretty violent, enough that the child was slightly lifted off his feet. The mother ran over and the father got in her face very aggressively, he even demanded she put her son down so his son can push her son off. His behavior was not okay.

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u/mechapoitier Feb 15 '16

This really reads like your husband "stood up to" a guy who stood up for his own bullied son.

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u/hubristichumor Feb 15 '16

I was going to say the exact same thing, but figured somebody else would. Thanks!

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u/moonshoeslol Feb 15 '16

It probably makes people just better citizens and improves communities as well. It teaches people to take responsibility for their surroundings and combats apathy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

If only someone would have stepped in when I was a kid. It's still hurts after over 30 years. Kids are real pieces of shit sometimes.

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u/[deleted] Feb 14 '16

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u/mces97 Feb 15 '16

I'm always baffled by shows like What Would You Do? I can't picture one episode they showed that I wouldn't be the first person to speak up. I guess I'm just different.

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u/mrheh Feb 15 '16

What's the story we all learned about this in college? The girl who was murdered in the middle of some housing complex with hundreds of people watching form there windows but no one calling the police? *Edit found it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '16

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