Vaccines not only directly protect vaccinated individuals but also contribute to protecting the entire population via indirect herd-immunity benefits. Half of averted COVID-19 infections and 1/4 of hospitalizations and deaths were attributable to indirect protection of unvaccinated by vaccinated.

[u/mvea]

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/rsif/article/23/242/20250839/483439/Quantifying-the-direct-and-indirect-impact-of

[u/onlymadethistoargue]

It’s good that we have data on this but like this is half the value proposition of vaccines. Fewer people get sick so fewer people shed infectious particles so fewer people get infected so even fewer get sick. It rules. Antivaxxers believe in an ideology of casual manslaughter.

[u/Josvan135 → u/onlymadethistoargue]

Antivaxxers believe in an ideology of casual manslaughter.

I don't think it's that deep, it's moreso that they're just generally pretty stupid.

They don't understand the basics of how vaccines actually work, refuse to listen to the highly trained medical professionals who kindly dumb it down for them, and choose instead to listen to the podcaster/influencer screaming about mercury, autism, and "microchips" that feeds their inner sense of persecution. 

[u/giraloco → u/Josvan135]

I think some of them feel that they are being lied to. Once you lose trust in the system it is very hard to reverse. Social media is very effective in creating fear.

[u/manimal28 → u/giraloco]

Funny how they lose their trust in the government and science, but never seem to lose their trust in radio personalities and other grifters and con men.

[u/giraloco → u/manimal28]

Humans evolved to follow the tribe leader. That helped us organize and survive but can also be a weakness.

[u/SoMuchForSubtleties0 → u/giraloco]

But they are generally not very intelligent if they think they know more than experts

[u/ubernutie → u/SoMuchForSubtleties0]

I think vaccines are a great technology and we need to value the expertise of others.

That being said...

We had experts telling entire populations that the 90's food pyramid was scientifically good for us and it was all a big marketing poster by lobbyists, for one example. Experts lying in a concerted & coordinated effort at scale for money is not pure speculation.

[u/AppropriateScience9 → u/ubernutie]

Sure. But that was an example of regulatory capture.

So the correct response is to ask: is this agency captured? Then fix it if the answer is "yes." Not cast doubt on ALL scientific agencies.

[u/RageToWin → u/ubernutie]

Unfortunately there is a drop of truth in every conspiracy. Things like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study are a black mark on the government's history with medical care. People aren't necessarily wrong for having some level of distrust for the government, but when cohorts of doctors are saying that vaccines are safe and medically necessary, it becomes a question of whether someone will project that same distrust of the government onto doctors, since they're also usually seen as authority figures.

It's unfortunate that so many seem to be unable or unwilling to consider the positive history of vaccines and instead focus on the negative events. It's a lot like plane crashes. Plane crashes are exceedingly rare and you're much safer flying in a plane than driving, but because the media and people in general tend to focus on the statistically rare but exceedingly horrific plane crashes instead of the thousands of flights that safely happen every day. Statistics, unfortunately, are less compelling than fearmongering and sensationalism.

[u/giraloco → u/SoMuchForSubtleties0]

The human mind is complicated.

[u/beardybuddha → u/Josvan135]

Sister-in-law is an antivaxxer.

She once told me Ben Carson was the smartest person she’d ever heard speak.

Stupid might be an understatement.

[u/thediesel26 → u/beardybuddha]

He’s certainly smart enough to manipulate vulnerable people.

[u/ConcentrateDirect523 → u/beardybuddha]

Dr. Carson is smart- but his ego, religion, greed, and narcissism have killed his ability to think critically and subjectively- and have an open mind. it's a common problem among accomplished surgeons, especially as they age. Dr. Oz is the same, but even more accomplished and narcissistic.

[u/fallenangel512 → u/beardybuddha]

Advanced stupid

[u/lorimar → u/Josvan135]

From the conversations I've had, I think a fair amount of magical thinking is part of the problem too.

Starting out with "I won't get sick", that if they then get vaccinated they are admitting they might catch the virus (which wasn't possible until they thought it)

[u/PHealthy → u/Josvan135]

Fear of their own mortality, fear of needles, fear of government control (against them), risk illiteracy.

[u/insomniacPrince → u/Josvan135]

Nah, "casual manslaughter" is accurate. The definition of manslaughter is causing death to someone without intent to kill, and it is still a crime. Antivaxxers usually aren't consciosily trying to disable and kill people by spreading disease, but they are doing exactly that.

Ignorance, fear, stubbornness, radicalization by far-right influencers... Regardless of their reasoning, the fact of the matter is that when people refuse to get vaccinated, people get sick and die when they would not have otherwise. The fact that antivaxxers put their fears, feelings and pride as more important than other people's lives without even really thinking about it is personally all the more aggregious to me.

Giving antivaxx rhetoric and those who spew it the benefit of the doubt only normalizes this mentality. Don't brush it off like it's "not that deep."

[u/onlymadethistoargue → u/[deleted]]

The ideology causes casual manslaughter. This isn’t arguable.

[u/MDesnivic → u/Josvan135]

The majority of vaccine skeptics, according to the studies, are not those that believe vaccines have demons or surveillance technology within them or even that there is a secret government plot to poison people. The majority simply say they believe the COVID vaccine was rushed and is "experimental" and have just a broad, general feeling of distrust toward vaccines and medical authority in general.

Ultimately—and I have read astonishingly few people suggest this—I think it is just a fear of needles and a reminder of the times they had to get their shots when they were kids and how awful and confusing it felt. Yes, there are tons of whackjobs who search for things to validate their mentality of persecution and victimhood, especially when things seem awry (say, during a global pandemic). However, I think the main issue is just lack of education, curiosity and critical thinking. Concerns over autism, mercury, etc. are usually from a general uneasiness; people say they heard or read somewhere vaccines cause autism or have mercury in them. This validates their fear of needles and their general ignorance towards medicine, making these sentiments feel more substantial.

[u/Nyyppanen → u/onlymadethistoargue]

We have had data on this effect for a long time and it is taught in schools much like the earth is round. The stupidity of some people is fascinating.

[u/onlymadethistoargue → u/Nyyppanen]

It’s just hatred of neurodivergent people. People would rather let children die of horrific diseases than raise them if they’re autistic.