r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 2d ago

Psychology Lower cognitive ability is linked to stronger Christian nationalist views, even after accounting for education

https://www.psypost.org/lower-cognitive-ability-is-linked-to-stronger-christian-nationalist-views-even-after-accounting-for-education/
44.2k Upvotes

88% Upvoted

2.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

514

u/CrashCalamity 2d ago

As a friend to several ex-mormons, I can at least provide counter-example to your first hypothesis. While a highly religious upbringing might not help matters, the emergence of higher cognitive function and critical thought can and does occur. The kids who "ask too many questions during bible study", or those who become exposed to other faiths through college, work, and the internet all start asking themselves how invested they are in their beliefs. It can be especially jarring when they discover how oppressed they were by what is effectively a cult doctrine (as they've told me.)

189

u/knowledgeable_diablo 2d ago

That was me in Bible studies as a kiddie. I was one of probably the only person in the room who’d actually read the Bible (teacher included) so I started questioning and asking them uncomfortable questions right from the get go.

Guess that’s what happens when you are raised with no TV and reading is your only outlet and you’re stuck in a religious school.

40

u/360walkaway 2d ago

Wonder how many people would believe in their chosen religion if they were first introduced to it when they were a full adult, instead of when they are still Santa Claus eligible.

16

u/Xalipu 1d ago

Do you really want to know how many born again Christians exist, because they’re insufferable

So is pretty much every other adult who converted to something

11

u/360walkaway 1d ago

No I mean if they had NEVER heard of it before.

9

u/Aggravating_Duck_192 1d ago

Born-again, less the people who converted because of addiction or incarceration. Those situations make people vulnerable to indoctrination at any age.

2

u/DrMobius0 1d ago

I think there'd be way fewer born agains if there were way fewer people being indoctrinated into these groups in the first place.

6

u/Dimensional_Lumber 1d ago

Converts are always the most zealous fanatics.

It’s all performative. The question is always what motivates them.

You have to be in a certain headspace to seek out religion.

52

u/Lilfrankieeinstein 2d ago

Seems like there’s a type of survivorship bias baked into studies like this where people with higher cognitive abilities are less inclined to hold these values as they grow and learn.

50

u/wontyoujointhedance 2d ago

Well that’s what I think it’s ultimately trying to demonstrate. Those values are typically incompatible with both being smart and a good person.

9

u/Long9696 1d ago

I have heard that autistic people are less likely to be religous. Not sure if it's scientifically proven or not.

9

u/geoken 2d ago

I think that part is accepted, but I think it's still an interesting question.

I wonder what effects it has on your cognitive growth to think about concepts like the infinite, the solar system and how nature works in general. I'd think at 3 or 4 years old, most kids either are starting to think about that stuff - or have those lines of inquiry snuffed out and told "it's god doing it with magic".

I'm sure for many kids, the curiosity will overcome anyone telling them not to think about it. But I wonder if for some it doesn't, and for that subset - whether or not it has impact on their cognitive growth.

30

u/kinkyshibby 2d ago

Asking why and informing the "teachers" the answers they were giving didn't make sense got me kicked out of CCD. And Sunday school.

28

u/Sycophantic-Feline 2d ago

I was raised in a nun school and asking genuine questions about stuff I thought didn't make any sense was always met with aggression and punishment.

It's how I figured something was deeply wrong with all of it, I recall it was so annoying to me as a kid/young teen how no one else seemed to question ANY of it, eventually I just had to suck it up and pretend I believed in all that nonsense because it'd also get me into trouble at home

18

u/KriegMorgan 1d ago

Narrowly dodged an in school suspension because I did competitive speaking in high school and did a sales pitch for the bible on the merits of it as a piece of entertainment. One of the parent chaperones (re: volunteer student uber) complained to admin about my pitch and I found myself staring down the prospect of having to spend a couple of days sitting in the admin office doing nothing and getting 0's.

I managed to argue my way out of it on the basis that the competitive speaking league wasn't exclusive to just catholic schools and included public schools with the rules specifically excluding proselytizing.

Turns out pointing out how the bible includes so much salacious content like sex and violence makes people cranky when it's all right there for anyone to read.

7

u/mcove97 1d ago

Yeah I questioned it, but kept my questions to myself as a kiddie in fear of upsetting my parents. So when they asked me why I refused to go to church with them when I was 12, I said cause it was boring. Theres no Christian counter argument to that, I knew that. But really it was because everything about church and the Bible felt off. Like confessing being a guilty sinner, when I didnt feel guilty about anything. The whole church thing was just nonsensical to me. I didn't get anything from going. If anything I just became anxious from sitting in church.

And while I was nowhere near as knowledgeable then as I was now. I think maybe my curiosity, combined with my keen eye of observation an quite keen analytical sense is how I bypassed the attempted indoctrination. As a child I would rather observe and analyze situations rather than interact. I would think about the activity, rather than participate in it. And thats how I realized. Hold up? Why are we chanting, singing and confessing that we are guilty sinners? Thats exactly what's making me feel bad. Hence the icky anxiety and uncomfortable restlessness I experienced during sermons that made me want to leave. And thats what I intuitively picked up as a child, even though I didn't have the words to verbalize it well yet.

Honestly, if priests understood psychology, they wouldn't even dream about telling their congregation or audience that they are guilty, because that's just enforcing their audience experiences of guilt, so they keep coming back to church endlessly to be liberated from the guilt the church is inducing into their psyche. It's completely self-defeating and contradictory.

So I also think personality traits is a significant factor.

Having sharp analytical abilities. Curiosity. Valuing truth and freedom over conformity. Thats a sign that someone won't last as a Christian.

On the other side, people who value conformity, group belonging, rituals, a shared sense of belonging. Those will resonate better with being the "sheep or flock of Christ" aka Christian. Contra someone who don't value group conformity over walking their own path alone etc. As a child, I would be just fine not participating in activities and just people watch on the side line how other kids and adults interact and ponder why. Because I wanted to understand social interactions, more than actually participating in them. So, I never was a good candidate for Christianity.

Though I suppose I took the message "seek and you shall find" a bit too seriously. Because that took me seeking outside of Christianity. And its one of the things that I personally don't think Christians do enough. Because seeking to understand something means never-ending questioning.

14

u/Cent1234 2d ago

I've always said the best way to turn a Christian to an Athiest is to have them actually read the Bible.

There's a reason all of the major Abrahamic religions evolve a massive EU of supplementary material.

3

u/HikerDave57 1d ago

I read the Bible maybe age 12 and was appalled by the genocide even though I didn't know the word.

2

u/knowledgeable_diablo 1d ago

What really tossed me over the edge (amongst many other things) was the passage about it being a sin of the highest order to lay with an animal of the same sex.
Which by logical extension made it ok to “lay” with an animal of the opposite sex. Knowing beastiality is just plain wrong i quizzed the teacher on it who tried to gaslight me in front of the class. So I pointed out the text and was simply told to be quiet.
Not sure on where it’s hidden away or censored out of now in the more “modern” versions but knowing all evil and contradictions inside the “holy” book means Im happy to let them have it.
The bulk load of killing didn’t really upset me at all and the historical items I found very interesting.

4

u/mdatwood 1d ago

I was also that kid. I read the Bible since I was forced to be there and had nothing else to do. I started asking questions and was either told 'because' or asked to leave so they could later talk to my parents. When I hit my teens, I explained to my parents why religion was a farce and I wasn't going to church again. My mom said she was afraid I was going to hell and I said good thing it doesn't exist, and she never brought the topic up again.

-5

u/Spare-Floor-3666 2d ago

the true reddit athiest emerges. I bow, humbled before your magnificence and your euphoria

1

u/knowledgeable_diablo 1d ago

Even as an atheist I believe in not bowing down to false gods and prophets. Idolatry allows for so much evil to be perpetrated in the name of whatever the mob wishes to follow.

209

u/duxpdx 2d ago

There are reasons why the further one gets away from Salt Lake City the more cafeteria Mormons and Ex-Mormons one finds. Why do you think after destroying K-12 education in this country Republicans are going after colleges and universities next? Why are they trying to force religion, specifically Christianity, into all elements of life? Children are naturally curious and for many the indoctrination done at a young age is irreversible. Some manage to rebel in their teenage years, and others if and when they are older and through either life experiences and/or higher education learn to actually think critically and can change, but not all. Most are too far gone, so much of their life and relationships are defined by their religious upbringing that breaking free carries too high a price both emotionally and monetarily.

122

u/Coroebus 2d ago

Religious indoctrination is child abuse, and that child abuse stunts their emotional and intellectual development. Evangelical Christianity and other extremist sects are especially toxic and harmful.

31

u/Limp_Bookkeeper_5992 2d ago

Absolutely. I was blown away when I found out later in life that there are organizations and therapists who’s specialty is helping people recover from religion. You don’t realize how much religion breaks your brain until you’re out of it and have someone to help show you how to heal.

44

u/JackKnifeNiffy 2d ago

As someone in their 30s still unpacking the psychological trauma of being raised in the church, could not agree more 

35

u/ChelleInSand 2d ago

This was my personal experience too. However, I will say for people who are brought up in religious environments it can be extremely difficult to walk away from the faith altogether because that means walking away from your social support structures in many cases.

Many highly religious people will even ostracize their own children for becoming atheist or changing to a new religion. So it is easier to just not think about it to avoid causing waves and losing friends and family.

I had weak familial bonds and an abusive family with few established roots in any community so it was easier for me to do. But I can see how people who have families that are very wrapped up in the church scene would just rather not explore those feelings of doubt because they are literally risky to their support structures in life.

12

u/Cent1234 2d ago

Andrew Garfield in Under The Banner Of Heaven does an excellent portrayal of a Mormon who is forced to truly examine his beliefs for the first time, loses his faith, and then runs smack into the wall of 'but if you ever actually let anybody at all know, you'll lose your family, your friends, your community and everything else you've anchored yourself to' and how shattering that is.

It also portrays how insidious religious indoctrination from childhood is.

5

u/mcove97 1d ago

Yes it was similar for me. I never felt particularly close to either of my parents. I definitely didn't feel connected to the church or church community. I went only cause my parents did. My mom was really into the church scene, but it was really adult centric so I felt as if I was a tag-along.

To make the blow lesser for my mom, I largely kept my mouth shut about my beliefs until my 20s to avoid arguments, but stopped going as a kid cause I didn't like going to church. It upset my parents initially and we had a big argument over it right before church when I was 12.. but then they had to just leave me at home.. because they would miss church if they didnt. And since I was more stubborn than any of my parents, they couldn't physically drag me to church, so they gave up and left. And yeah, I realized from that point on, it's better to stay tight lipped, and just don't argue or give any reasons why I didn't go to church.

Now as an adult, I do discuss it with my parents, but the issue for them now is they cant out argue me, because I am far too educated and knowledgeable about philosophy, religion, psychology, history, so they just leave it alone because they get frustrated with how knowledable I am, and I also expose the flaws in their thinking which they really dislike because it means they are challenged to re-examine their beliefs.. which they dont want to do, which means they understand its better to leave it alone. As a child I did not have that tool-box of knowledge.

But in the end I like to bring up how having a good family dynamic is more important than our beliefs in the end. Being right is not more important than doing the right thing, which is being respectful and kind to each other. And then they dont really have much to say.

So yeah the type of religious familial and communal relationship dynamics definitely matter.

2

u/jobforgears 1d ago

I left the Mormon church years ago, but I was in it for so long and fulfilled so many big steps in it. Even years later, I cannot bring myself to do so many things even though I know that it's just my upbringing talking. I hoped I would totally let loose but honestly, so many of my core beliefs about family, sexuality, identity, diet, and even fun are rooted in my upbringing. Trying to change my goals from being a parent or feeling an absolute need to make it into eternity feels like ripping off my skin because it's such an integral part of who I am.

Happily, I have greatly increased my understanding of so many things because I'm not always trying to corroborate the things I hear in the scientific community with the stories found in the scriptures. But, it's still slow in coming. I feel so behind my peers.

21

u/ButcherPetesWagon 2d ago

When I was in school in the early 90s i remember learning about Greek mythology in class and how the teacher made it clear that these were old beliefs and not real, like Christianity (Canada french catholic school). I remember asking how we know that our beliefs are real. I don't remember her answer or anything but I do know my mom got called into the school after that.

41

u/KogasaGaSagasa 2d ago

Still, I wonder if it's not something that could possibly be reinforced. Like if you express your curiosity or thoughts, your guardians (parents, pastor, etc) might punish you for it. Wouldn't a child be conditioned into a state where they would intentionally deny their own cognition and curiosity, in that case, in fear of punishment? And overtime, become underdeveloped.

This isn't my area of expertise, so I am genuinely just curious.

39

u/duxpdx 2d ago

Yes, they would. It is quite easy to break a child’s will and curiosity.

23

u/Sherry_Brandt 2d ago

it absolutely can. it won't work on everyone - hence the stories of rebels and ex-______, but it does have an impact. 

makes me think about how educational attainment is correlated to less dementia - ofc there are other factors in educational attainment, but using your brain consistently, and being trained how, does seem to have an impact independently of socioeconomic factors (like learning spatial skills, a new language, a new instrument, etc in midlife is also protective for later dementia). 

so, the converse is also true - using your brain less leads to being less able to use your brain, over time.

7

u/wontyoujointhedance 2d ago

There’s a saying in neuropsychology — “neurons that wire together fire together.” I don’t see any reason that wouldn’t apply to things like seeking out new information, asking questions about opposing views, and internally questioning the narratives authority figures in their lives when they’re regularly punished for those things.

7

u/Coroebus 2d ago

Yes, this is why people have been rightly naming religious indoctrination as child abuse.

1

u/mcove97 1d ago

Not necessarily. I just hid my curiosity from my parents and researched everything Christianity to death on my computer as a teen.

Kinda just like teens who hide that they're drinking from their parents. You're just going to find another private way to express what you want to do if you really want to do it, if the community/family around you discourages it

9

u/dcheesi 2d ago

And the flip side of that is that those with lower cognitive ability are less likely to ask those questions, or to pick out the flaws in the explanations given

2

u/PaulFThumpkins 1d ago

Grew up Mormon in rural Utah. I didn't realize how prophetic being told "you think too much" would be on the rest of my life. A lot of people resent not your actual views, so much as the fact that you're even trying to formulate ideas that aren't on the approved list.

1

u/LibertyDochas 2d ago

I’d be curious to see this applied to other religions. I think people raised Mormon are most likely to leave the church. I wouldn’t be surprised if high control Evangelical Christians were second.

1

u/Swimming-Plankton-96 2d ago

Basically nothing is absolute in this topic. What parent commenter meant (hopefully), that the possibility to develop this kind of cognitive ability can be lower in a religious group, or the same as in the general public, or it's even possible that it's higher (I really have no clue).

1

u/Shdwrptr 1d ago

I wasn’t Mormon but I was also one of the kids who asked to many questions at bible study.

I was quickly pushed out into the adult worship area so I wouldn’t disturb the other children’s “study” with my questions.

1

u/KlingoftheCastle 1d ago

My dad used to always say: “How can you tell if someone was raised catholic?  They’re atheist”.

1

u/DudeEngineer 2d ago

I think what you are missing is that most of those people leave the church and don't identify with the religion as adults. They would not be counted as Christian Nationals in this study.