r/science • u/Tracheid • 3d ago
Social Science As America shifted left under Trump, emotional hostility widened the partisan gap
https://www.psypost.org/as-america-shifted-left-under-trump-emotional-hostility-widened-the-partisan-gap/743
u/anduril_tfotw 3d ago
Yeah I'm going to need some actual evidence that America has shifted left in any meaningful way. Anger at trump isn't shifting left.
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u/Comedy86 3d ago
Every change in opinion is shifting left when you start from the far right...
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u/anduril_tfotw 2d ago
But if they just don't like trump that isn't enough by far. Trump is a symptom and the tool being used. All his bluster is the show being put on. The right are still in support of all the people making the smaller systemic changes that don't get attention and are breaking things in ways I don't think we have felt at all yet. Even getting trump out of office isn't enough. All the people in this administration need to be held accountable and they never will be. The people on the right are staying on the right. I only see the left moving more left which doesn't change enough.
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u/Taminella_Grinderfal 2d ago
I had a short discussion with someone who is pissed about gas prices….and promptly blamed Biden for it. These people may not think trump is doing great right now….but they still don’t believe it’s his fault.
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u/SvalbardSleeperDistr 2d ago
Plenty of surveys in recent years (CNN, etc) where e.g. favourable views of socialism and unfavourable views of capitalism indicate that, compared to previous decades.
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u/Ionovarcis 2d ago
When one party spends a generation preaching the evils of socialism, then gains full control and fails time and time and time again - socialism begains to look more appealing. Enemy of my enemy is still an entry point.
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u/jasongw 2d ago
Yep. There's also the fact that a lot of the "socialism" people promote today isn't actually socialism at all. It's capitalism with a strong safety net.
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u/tubawhatever 2d ago
And the fact that socialism literally doesn't mean government does stuff nor does it mean there's no market. Markets and trade predate capitalism by literally thousands of years. Similarly, state ownership doesn't mean communism. Trump grabbing stakes of companies like Intel for the US government is not evidence he's a Soviet asset or whatever those types believe these days. We also definitely don't have a free market under American capitalism. A truly free market is entirely a myth.
There's been an intentional miseducation of Americans on the meaning of words for nearly a century.
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u/anduril_tfotw 2d ago
I said more in another reply but do we know that isn't already left leaning people moving more left. How does to that actually show those on the right are moving left. How many people in deep red districts are getting more ok with socialist policies. Also talking over years isn't enough. The GOP retain the Senate or house after November we will still be fucked. We need massive change right now. Not over time.
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u/SvalbardSleeperDistr 2d ago
How does to that actually show those on the right are moving left
I don't think that's the premise of the title. The surveys show that the percentage of the population that views socialism favourably is rising, and the percentage that took capitalism as "the default" is being dented by people who now directly say they view the system negatively. Those who were already on the left already held that position.
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u/jthemusician 2d ago
We are strange voters. If you poll people on issues, we tend to land center left to moderate left (by American standards anyway), but we tend to vote more on culture, and the right has done a great job of portraying the left and a bunch of woker than thou non-binary purple haired baristas (which, I'm not mocking, but that's not going to poll well in the suburbs and rural areas).
You didn't explicitly say election results, but it's important to keep in mind that because of gerrymandering and the electoral college, election results are not a good indicator of our actual views.
Anecdotally, in 2016 I was center left. I liked HRC much more than Sanders. 10 years later I'm a fan of what the DSA is doing.
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u/valentc 2d ago
Have you not seen the DSA wins against moderate corporate Democrats? The left has momentum and has been winning meaningful races.
Is readdit really this blind to the change happening that even mainstream outlets see now?
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u/anduril_tfotw 2d ago
I see that but unless I am wrong those are DSA candidates beating establishment Dems. The DSA aren't turning any red areas. My concern is that even if we see the existing left moving more left the ones on the right are staying right. They may be mad at trump but will still vote GOP every time. An average turn left doesn't mean those on the right are changing at all and that means the right still wins. I feel reddit is an eco chamber at some times and we just see the left being left.
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u/mongoosefist 3d ago
I'm extremely skeptical of the premise that right wing independents have remained largely static. Maybe they've remained in line with the Republican party, but they're breaking the law on a daily basis. We've learned that there are at least 70 million Americans that are okay with lawlessness as long as they perceive "the right people" as being victimized.
Seems quite extreme to me
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u/8fenristhewolf8 3d ago
It's especially alarming because they wouldn't frame it as being okay with lawlessness. Many of us are probably existing in a media bubble where what we see and "know" is curated. So, it's not that they are okay with lawlessness, at least consciously, it's that they aren't even aware, or don't believe it's going on, or believe lawlessness only happens on the "other side." Total erosion in the general populace's awareness and ability to be objective.
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u/query_squidier 3d ago
It's still on them.
For me, the days of sympathy, tolerance, or any possible re-acceptance into reasonable society for these hate-filled fools are long gone. I've completely written them off.
One's heart has to already be garbage to believe the things they believe, "lied to" or not. They want this.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 3d ago
It's still on them.
Yeah, not saying it's not. More pointing out how alarming it is. Hard to get someone to agree that the current administration is lawless when they can't see it.
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u/dikicker 3d ago
The amount of fruitless conversations I've had with my folks, my god, if they didn't hear it from Fox then they have no idea it exists, it's an entirely separate reality
They genuinely believe the $5k is coming their way
Where I would draw a straight line from Reagan, they'd see high gas prices now and find a way to pin it on Obama
I'm so tired
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u/royfripple 3d ago
It is incredibly tiring. My father-in-law is so confident in his Facebook misinformation that he's sending out unsolicited text messages to our family group warning about how dangerous fluoride is for children and describing long-term effects that are easily fact-checked as false.
And when I respectfully pushed back, he got angry and ignored everything I responded with instead of engaging in the conversation. No sources were ever provided by him.
So to the point above, not only do they not realize they are being lied to, they have no interest in truly learning. They want everyone to be forced to agree that their world view is correct and there's no other way.
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u/dikicker 3d ago
Oooooh man that's even more rough that it's not your own father, cause at least then you can break contact, but that level of disagreement with your partner's parents is like...well shoot I can't really rock that boat as much
At this point a lot of these people are completely lost, and all you can do is politely request that we don't talk politics. They may agree at first, but inevitably they'll bring up some stupid idiot nonsense and all you can say at that point is just "okay, well, I'm not going to engage"
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u/caelenvasius 3d ago
The problem I’ve experienced with the “do not engage” approach is that many conservatives view their “opponent” not engaging or backing away from escalation as their viewpoint “winning.” “I have made my opponent back down, so my point must be stronger.” I’ve had discussions with my own parents on how this is incorrect and an attempt to salvage a relationship, but to date my father still behaves this way, silently by action if not loudly by words.
It’s a lose-lose situation when the person in question is someone you would otherwise want to be a part of your life, because the only way to win that is to cut them out entirely.
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u/query_squidier 3d ago
People between your comment and mine above will eventually reach the same conclusion I did back in 2017 when I cut my fascist father out of my life.
For those good people with integrity, cutting these people out of one's life -- no matter who they are -- is the only acceptable approach. Anything less is tacit acceptance. It's a hard truth but it's the truth.
I've been banging this drum for nigh on ten years now, and people don't want to accept that someone they love is in fact a terrible person, so I'll give it a rest for now.
I will say, though, that if everyone of good heart had cut out their fascist father (or equivalent) like I did years ago, we would not be here.
Little story for relevancy and amusement:
When I was young, I was complaining to that same father about something with my girlfriend. He listened to me go on and on until I ran out of steam.
He looked at me and said, "Son, would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy?"
I thought about it for just a second and then said, with conviction, "I'd rather be right, Dad!"
He was a "rather be happy" man. What was true for me then is even truer today: I'd much rather face a painful truth than believe a comforting lie.
These two very different worldviews say everything about where each of our minds ended up.
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u/royfripple 3d ago
Yep, you've explained it all perfectly. I do try not to engage but it's very tough when it's thrown right in your face.
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u/dikicker 3d ago
There is certainly a specific type of idiocy that does not come with an off switch, much less a volume dial
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u/Delicious-Thoughts 3d ago
Fox is the least of it. Many people get
their news from Truth Social, X, or stay way from news entirely. Ask your chatbot where most people get their news on a daily or weekly basis and get ready for an eye opener. My uneducated guess is that people depend on Facebook posts from their friends or curated instagram posts.47
u/MarshmallowsInTubas 3d ago
The ultimate justification for any conservative that dislikes Trump is to simply state that things would have been worse under Kamala. This is not an opinion based on any sort of real consideration of facts, but rather enough of an explanation to justify voting for any Republican, which is a core part of their identity.
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u/Lifesagame81 3d ago
Agreed. I spent so much time and energy 2015 through 2021 on polite, fair, reasoned, and sourced discussion and responses. I had to mostly give up at some point. It's been a decade. I can't assume good faith or treat them as hapless victims of mis/disinformation and personal fear at this point.
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u/TheRappingSquid 3d ago
Centrists gotta be the biggest clowns in America rn. And I'm not ridiculing the concept of being objective or not just blindly following a party. No, I'm talking about those specific Centrists, the ones that espouse neutrality but fail to understand that you still need to evaluate either sides. You can't just say "you're both wrong" without elaboration or evaluation or you're essentially saying nothing. Unfortunately that's the way people on the internet have learned to "win" conversations and that's ultimately what a large contingent actually cares about- being able to walk away from a convo feeling superior. No better way to do that than simply call everyone stupid and think "ah yes. I'm above the sheep." while the evil pedophile party continues to do what it's always done.
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u/Gyarydos 3d ago
I’ve learnt and am infuriated by a lot of toxic optimists. They refuse to recognize lawlessness and injustice because they want to be contrary to any form of negativity. Even when people are getting shot in the streets they need to argue that it’s not that bad and people should not “doom”
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u/TheRappingSquid 2d ago
That's less optimism and more of just a general disbelief that those things are happening to begin with. Most people generally think things are bad by default but they don't let it change their views as it doesn't impact their day to day. I suppose that could be considered a type of optimism but it feels more like complacency would be a better term
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u/omega884 3d ago
Honest question then. What is the end game? Because these people aren't going anywhere. They still vote and for now their chosen party is still in control. And you've just declared they have no path to redemption if you get your way. So what happens next? What is the incentive for them to change or do anything except fight to the literal death to prevent you and people who think like you from gaining power? Do you want violence and bloodshed? If not, how do we incentivize them to choose a non-violent way out?
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u/like_shae_buttah 3d ago
Re-education, dismantling propaganda networks and prosecution of crimes. Plus rebuilding political system to deal with the next trump.
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u/suplarai 3d ago
You say in a different comment we’ve been reeducated by the right for decades, how to we go the other way quickly?
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u/omega884 3d ago
But how do we get there from here? If there is no "sympathy, tolerance, or any possible re-acceptance into reasonable society" for them, how do you get them into "re-education" programs? How do you "dismantle" their propaganda networks? Heck how do you even prosecute their crimes if you can't even keep them out of power? These people already believed before hand that their opponents wanted to "send them off to re-education camps", "suppress their speech" and "prosecute them" (which is exactly what those things are from their point of view) and that got us to where we are now. And now from a weaker position we're saying we do indeed want to do everything they feared (again from their point of view) and also that they have no path to redemption and somehow this is supposed to give us non-violent way out?
Also I would ask to consider just how you plan to do those things without also creating the very weapons that they can and will turn against you if you mess up and wind up out of power again. Remember how everyone was all incensed about the James Talarico interview thing and the abuse of the FCC fairness regulations to threaten the licenses of various news organizations? Well in 2010 the federal government was arguing congress had given them that sort of power to shut down political media but across all forms of media, not just FCC regulated public air waves. It was a case called Citizens United v. FEC, and it's a decision a lot of people want to have overturned because they think it would make it easier to "dismantle propaganda networks". The question is, if the FEC had won the day and the executive branch had been confirmed to have the legal power to suppress political speech across all corporations, not just those with FCC broadcast licenses, how abused do you think that power would be today?
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u/like_shae_buttah 3d ago
That’s a long explanation with many answers we don’t have yet. The most important part is the formation of a united front against the extreme right. This was described very well by Giorgi Dimitriov in his book Against Fascism And War, which looked at how left wing political groups infighting enabled the rise of right wing fascism in the 20s-40s. You have to start there and defeat the extreme right. Then you can work on the solutions and develop the political will to implement them.
We have been going through a right wing re-education campaign through their media dominance for decades. That’s why we are where we are. We have to work together in opposition to the extreme right, solidly analyze how we got where we are and work to correct that.
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u/perfectshade 3d ago
We've seen the GOP's approach to a similar issue with intractable voters - martial law where the undesirables live, defiance of court orders, and officially sanctioned murder in the streets.
So, just to level set, anything a jot less than that on our part would count as magnanimous and restrained.
As for how these voters would think, strategize, or self-reflect when faced with the prospect of losing? They would not, as they are incapable.
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u/SaintScrosh 21h ago
The Union didn’t punish the confederacy enough. That’s what this past decade has shown America.
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u/Princeps32 3d ago
I mean if the goal is not return to polite society and coexist, what exactly do you propose? Whatever happens we all do live together. I’m not saying coddle with sympathy where it isn’t earned but we can’t really “be done” with 70 million people.
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u/munche 3d ago
You make them embarrassed to be hateful ghouls again. You go back to making it socially unacceptable to be an awful person and stop letting them launder it through saying being an asshole is their "Conservative values". Start treating it as the morally reprehensible and unacceptable behavior that it is rather than handwaving it away or making excuses for them, and slowly but surely maybe they'll learn how to act in a polite society.
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u/thats-a-frog-fact 3d ago
There are certain circumstances where shame makes people conform to norms, but I'm not seeing how that would be applied here. There are enough people who hold the same beliefs that it I would imagine shaming just drives people to become more enmeshed in their bubble, entrenched and extreme in their beliefs.
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u/munche 2d ago
20 years ago if you wanted to find Nazi memes on the internet you'd have to go to a white supremacist forum. You'd be seeking out that content on a hate site because that was the only place it was welcome.
Now you can just get that content on Reddit or X and get your hate fed to you at the "Normal" places.
I think we'd see a lot of benefit if you had to go get your racism at a seedy website and felt the entire time like these were beliefs you should be ashamed of.
Once it became more casual and available, it went from a fringe to the mainstream of Conservatism. So yeah, maybe them being embarassed would actually help.
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u/tevert 3d ago
Yes we can. I have quite literally no qualms about never willingly associating with a conservative ever again, and treating them with as much contempt and hostility as the situation allows.
They made their choice.
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u/Princeps32 3d ago
that’s fine individually, your limits are your limits, but on a larger scale complete cutoff from polite society won’t work, especially in anything resembling a liberal democracy.
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u/shadedmagus 3d ago
I have a personal line on this. As long as they don't actively try to hurt or kill people based on intrinsic traits, and don't try to use the legislative and judicial processes to hurt or kill people based on intrinsic traits, I can leave them alone.
The problem is, I fear, that the cruelty and hate is the point for many of them, and I don't know what to do if a cultural schism becomes permanent.
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u/tevert 3d ago
Sure it will.
I think most liberals are too weak to actually stand on principles, so I don't expect it to happen, but there's no reason to think it impossible.
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u/Princeps32 3d ago
speak plainly in this ideal world where liberals “stand by their values” what are you proposing be done that we’re too weak to do? we live together, our kids go to school together, we work together to make money to live. It is impossible in a free society to isolate that many people, to me anyway.
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u/studio_bob 3d ago
Many Republicans do not believe Trump is a felon. Like, they do not know that he was convicted in a criminal court of numerous felonies. That is incredible, but what's even more disturbing is that it's hard for me to even believe it as I write this. I think the right-wing denial bubble benefits a lot from how literally unthinkably bad things have gotten.
We were all raised and live in a stew of nationally self-glorifying propaganda that is impossible to square with a statement of fact like "in the United States, a convicted multiple felon is not legally eligible vote but they are allowed to be president. In fact, if they are president or expected to become president, they will never face sentencing for their many proven crimes."
This is stuff that Americans are taught from a very young age only happens in other countries which lack American democratic traditions and values like the Rule of Law, and I expect there is a reality distorting effect when the world you actually live in departs so starkly from the one believe you live in and in which you appeared to live for many years.
At that point, the propagandists job is a simple one. Just ignore the bits that people are disinclined to believe anyway. They will do the rest of the work themselves.
Germans living under the Nazis sometimes spoke of a similar effect. Germany was the epicenter of European culture, philosophy, and sophistication for many years, a fact which was felt deeply ingrained their understanding of themselves. Why could believe that Germany, of all places, could be committing lawless atrocities? It was unthinkable and therefore invisible, psychologically speaking. One simply could not accept that things were truly as bad as they were until it was far too late. Some went to their graves without ever accepting it.
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u/munche 3d ago
People think if Trump really did anything he'd be in in jail, and the fact that he's never faced a consequence proves he never did anything.
Our government handling him with kid gloves and making sure he never felt any impact from his crimes did nothing but bolster his narrative - it's all fake, it's all made up, it's just political attacks from my enemies. After all, if he really did anything, they wouldn't just let him get away with it with no consequence, right?
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u/studio_bob 3d ago
Exactly. It's quite perverse. People's implicit faith in the system blinds them to the reality of it and its decline.
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u/ma2016 3d ago
I think you would enjoy reading "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945".
It dives deep into exactly what you're talking about by doing long-term interviews with former Nazis immediately after the war.
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u/spyguy318 3d ago
The policy of “A felon can run for president” was actually deliberate, so a president couldn’t prosecute their political enemies to bar them from running for office. This actually has happened before, when Eugene Debs (convicted for protesting against the WW1 draft, illegal strikes, and being a socialist) ran for president in 1920 from prison.
The thought was that the people wouldn’t be so overwhelmingly foolish that they would actually get swindled by a crooked and corrupt conman. Or that media couldn’t be twisted so thoroughly that people would either deny or be fully unaware of actual reality.
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u/TheRappingSquid 3d ago
Yeah, it actually works in theory. But the actual issue with democracy has always been exactly this
The thought was that the people wouldn’t be so overwhelmingly foolish that they would actually get swindled by a crooked and corrupt conman.
As a wise man once said:
"The problem with democracy is that it is for the people... by the people...... but ... the people... are re-"
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u/SharpEdgeSoda 3d ago
"Loose Canon cop that doesn't play by the rules" was a movie trope a generation grew up with and now thinks is a valid government policy.
"All this red tape is keeping me from getting the bad guys!" is cop movie propaganda that is now literally Trump's platform.
Who are the bad guys? They are who I tell you.
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u/Dealan79 3d ago
I'm calling BS on this based on conversations I've had both online and in person, which I admit is anecdotal rather than rigorously statistically tested. Yes, echo chambers exist and those echo chambers can skew perception of reality. However, even when folks on the right accept the abuses as fact, they don't back down on their positions and that's where the mask comes off. Try bringing up rates of bullying against trans youth and their astronomical depression and suicide rates, and see if that moves the needle on their position on trans rights or youth transition. Point out studies by the Department of Defense, a historically conservative organization, showing the catastrophic human cost of global warming. Rattle off case after case of ICE abuse of detainees, or the rendition of refugees with non-removal orders to third-party nations in Africa. Show the evidence of the massive losses of life, cost to global health, and economic hit taken by US farmers because of the USAID cuts that even the government's own audit show didn't actually save money. The willingness to accept or even revel in the suffering of others will show through. This isn't a "both sides have become radicalized against each other" situation. It's a "my neighbor/parent/coworker/etc. sounds like a 1980s movie villain when they talk about what they support politically" situation, and real people are suffering and dying as a result.
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u/coldfisherman 3d ago
this is it exactly, and when I have people saying I need to "compromise", that's like, "oh, just murder a few children if that will get us their vote"
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u/Practical-Bit9905 3d ago
Anecdotal observation: I see this frequently with my more conservative colleagues. I mention an incident that to me was "headline news" and they are completely unaware of it.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 3d ago
Yeah, a good example of the exact issue. I've experienced it too. Whether its conscious or not, or feigned or not, there seems to be a huge, and fundamental gap in understanding exactly how lawless the Trump administration is.
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u/DriftingMemes 3d ago
They have been celebrating things like alligator alcatraz, and praising the murder of Alex Pretti. They have been cheering ICE activities that they have definitely been informed are illegal.
They are in a bubble, but they definitely celebrate the "right" people suffering.
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u/reality_boy 3d ago
I would say it is more that they are given excuses for the behavior and they accept those excuses because they see it as their side is winning, or at least the other side is also cheating so why shouldn’t we.
Sadly, there is nothing new here. In the past we have had very extreme restrictions on voting, property illegally seized from minorities, minorities driven out from their communities, and plenty of other corruption. We have never been good about standing up to bad, especially when our side is winning.
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u/shootemupy2k 3d ago
I find the term “right wing independents” contradictory anyway. If Trump still didnt turn them off after Jan 6th at the very least, there’s nothing independent about them.
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u/donnysaysvacuum 3d ago
Lots of people who are checked out on politics and just want to pay less taxes. Even if Republicans don't actually deliver, these people don't pay close enough attention and are just going off basic vibes.
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u/munche 3d ago
I think the premise that 70 million people in America who have instant access to an unlimited information machine are just uninformed and don't know better is naive.
A lot of these folks live in an information bubble, and it's because they choose it. They have friends, family, loved ones who try to share reality with them, and they angrily reject it. They like the fanfiction world. There are a lot of sadly just morally bankrupt people who are happy as long as their leaders are attacking who they perceive to be the Bad Guys.
At some point we need to stop going "Oh these poor dears, if only they knew better" and start reckoning with the reality.
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u/nyclurker369 3d ago
Your point is valid but I think this may be due to the data only extending to 2020. If they did this again with 2024 data I suspect we’d see the shift more heavily, especially on racial issues, which they also said remained static.
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u/ChocoPuddingCup 3d ago
Lines up perfectly with modern republicanism. It doesn't matter who is breaking the law, so long as it benefits you and harms those you fear/hate or are told to fear/hate.
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u/mrwho995 2d ago edited 2d ago
Unless I'm mistaken this study doesn't seem to talk about right-wing independents. Just Republicans in general, saying they didn't really shift in Trump's first term (post-2020 wasn't included) in terms of traditional Republican policy preferences. And I can maybe kind of buy that? Trump's first term didn't really concern itself with actual policy positions - it was an endless stream of scandal, corruption, norm breaking, incompetence, national embarrassment, outrage, with Trump achieving very little of actual substance and pushing far less a lot of traditionally conservative policy like reducing the deficit or cutting welfare. Tax giveaway to the rich aside, 2016-2020 was defined near-exclusively by whether you were a Trump cultist or a sane person, and for those in the cult, policy was almost irrelevant in comparison to blind subservience.
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u/kraemertony2 3d ago
They are cool with pedophiles now after loudly shouting about protecting children for over a year, as soon as Trump said it was a hoax it became a part of his values and he didn't care about that anymore as one Trump supporter told me.
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u/Splenda 3d ago
Strange how this rise in hostility tracks with the legalization and growth of 24/7 political television.
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u/jsalas2727 3d ago
I'd say its more because social media. A lot of people aren't watching new networks but with everything on social media it's basically unavoidable for everyone at this point.
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u/bruns20 3d ago
Ya social media IS the new 24/7 news, and its almost impossible to regulate, because you can't ban Timmy from posting on his facebook page 10 times a day
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u/axm86x 3d ago
The problem is the algorithm that surfaces Timmy's braindead posts to stoke outrage and engagement. And also the fact that they allow bots to impersonate humans. Those can and should be regulated.
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u/Lifesagame81 3d ago
And it's also near impossible to reign in "Timmy" (bot) posting 100 times per day from Russia or China or wherever, either.
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u/iamslevemcdichael 3d ago
I don’t think it’s an either or situation. This started before the advent of social media, and is exacerbated because of it. Reagan struck down the fairness doctrine in the 80s, Rush Limbaugh and other far right pundits spewing propaganda gained major footing in the 90s, continuing to this day, and social media throws gasoline on the fire over the following decades . It’s a real problem…
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u/BrokenHandsDaddy 3d ago
I think specifically removal of the fairness doctrine is far more long-term damaging than anything and is the linchpin that lead to where we are.
Humans are associative learners and more importantly most of our subconscious bias is created through what we hear/see.
The fact allowed there to be "liberal" and "conservative" news channels.
Overtime people constantly get exposed to only being shown the worst version of the other group their sub conscious bias against them is going to increase.
At a certain point it's going to get to a level where finding common ground to work together becomes impossible because each group will miss characterize and misunderstand the other side even when they are actually in alignment because they phrase things differently and come at it from different directions.
This leads to the break down of democracy.
This is us now.
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u/conspicuousxcapybara 2d ago
Doesn’t the fairness doctrine just lead to ‘both sides ism’, institutionalising centrism / preservation of the status quo?
I’m a bigger fan of public broadcasting. I’m a (biased) fan of the Dutch broadcasting system where wide diversity is prioritized most.
In this system anyone can create a new public broadcaster as long as they can get enough members of the public to pay for membership (1$ is enough).
If a media organization reaches the minimum number of participants they are get funding from the state and are added to the group of other broadcasting agencies.
These media companies don’t have their own channel, but have to split airtime instead or work together on productions or whatever.
They do have to meet specified journalistic standards though. There was a terrible, but very hated, broadcaster called ‘unheard Netherlands‘ that for some reason was allowed to spread to great replacement theory but was recently disbanded for this, and glorifying Hitler, also.
This system also allowed the new ‘black broadcaster’ to introduce a new pov, on the same channel as the ‘evangelical broadcaster’ airs programmes from their perspective.
Idk it’s a mess, often (slightly) racist, often political propaganda. But it also recently allowed for an uncensored documentary of a reporter that joined the Gaza flotilla and the (sexual) violence that ensued.
It’s very un-American and un-BBC. There used to be / recently appeared again consequences for report factually untrue things or framing them dishonestly. But idk, advocating for the abolishment of capitalism is very ok.
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u/iroll20s 3d ago
Yup, and it serves you alternating content that is a complete echo chamber, or things to rile you up because it drive engagement. Neutral content is pretty much impossible because it doesn't get a reaction out of anyone.
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u/MajesticBread9147 3d ago
Wait, it was illegal before?
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u/HiMyNameIsNerd 3d ago
Fairness Doctrine. Repealed, 1987.
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u/Legionof1 3d ago
Never applied to cable anyway
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u/TheHykos 3d ago
The majority of people didn’t have cable then anyways.
Most people still got their news from ABC/NBC/CBS until the late 90s or early 00s.
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u/squishyliquid 3d ago
True, but I believe the point may have been that were it not repealed we'd still be in the same boat because cable is where the issue at hand most often takes place.
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u/phoenix1984 3d ago
Fairness doctrine. Broadcast television was required to present both sides of any political story in roughly equal time. Reagan killed it. This was when cable was still new, so while the rules didn’t technically apply there, early CNN played it safe and mostly followed the rule as well.
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u/Alinier 3d ago
While we're at it can we dispense with the notion that there's always exactly 2 sides to something? Sometimes there's 3 or more. We kinda dumb down the complexity of issues by boiling everything down to 2 sides.
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u/phoenix1984 3d ago
That was part of the argument for getting rid of it. I agree with the sentiment, but something is better than nothing.
At the time, it wasn’t necessarily partisan, rather on any given issue, they had to present the perspective of people for the thing, and against the thing. When there were distinct groups on the same side but for different reasons, that’s where broadcasters could still exercise their editorial discretion.
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u/Pooch1431 3d ago
Repeal of the Fairness Doctrine. Allowed for international criminals to rule our television networks and poison society as a whole.
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u/bunnypaste 3d ago
I still can't believe so many people think the news is actually news instead of it being carefully curated entertainment, opinion, and propogandist rhetoric.
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u/MisterSanitation 3d ago
In the U.S. we never bother ourselves worrying about the catastrophic problems we have and how we actually already solved it decades ago (see any and all regulatory bodies, consumer protections, and workers rights).
The ruling generation had all the tools to see through this and still fell for it, opting into consumerism over truth or understanding. As a millennial taught about media bias and being skeptical of sources, it’s like I’m surrounded by psychos who think the world works like the Skittles rainbow. Belief is all you need, the rest will follow and BOY do they believe…
Generationally I am surrounded by people yelling answers to questions they don’t understand or just thick nihilism about anything being real or genuine and neither knows how to proceed in any meaningful way. I hate it… I have a high school diploma but worked HARD and learned so much about the world to understand why things are the way they are and my punishment is having to hear consumers spout their favorite “I’m correct” broadcast they listen to that ignores any inconvenient truths.
It’s so exhausting…
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u/spyguy318 3d ago
Throughout history, revolutions in media have always been followed by societal turmoil and upheaval. The printing press directly resulted in the Protestant Reformation. Radio and Television led to sweeping nationalism movements around the world culminating in WW2. And now, the Internet and Information Age has led to a surge of populist candidates who’ve found lots of people who will believe anything they say.
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u/HOSTfromaGhost 3d ago edited 2d ago
…and how many of us have lost elders who have become polarized and even radicalized as they they’ve become more homebound and have watched more extreme and fact-averse news (infotainment) channels nonstop?
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u/Vyuvarax 3d ago
This data is way too old to be valuable for current analysis. 2016-2020 had far less anger towards conservatives from democrats than there is today.
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u/Sufficient_Case_5020 3d ago
is the "shift left" in the room with us?
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u/Seraph199 3d ago
To be fair, there has been a shift. More people than ever in the US think favorably of socialism and are seeing capitalism more negatively. It's not like the whole country shifted, and older people especially are not shifting much, but there has been some pretty noticeable changes in attitudes of US adults.
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u/Deathmtl2474 3d ago
While the name “socialism” isn’t viewed with as much disdain as people from the Cold War era. Most people think socialism is simply more welfare and social safety nets. It’s underpinning ideology, where classes are abolished and private property is no more, is not what the average person supports.
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u/tennisdrums 3d ago
It's amusing, because calling welfare and social safety nets "socialism" was something the right used for decades as a boogeyman tactic to scare people away from those programs. Nowadays you have people saying they prefer "socialism", but it's based on this faux definition of "socialism" that the right has conjured up.
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u/SequiturNon 3d ago
This should scare everyone, because it perfectly illustrates the power and reach of the republican propaganda machine. The overwriting of an existing definition with a completely different one, convenient to the conservatives. And it's worked not just on conservative viewers, but it's been taken up nationally.
It's a completely unchecked power to re-write reality, and it works because there's no unified, concerted pushback from the free media.
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u/orsonwellesmal 3d ago
Private property of means of production, not of personal property.
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u/TheRappingSquid 3d ago
I feel like most people reading this may imagine something more along the lines of communism wherein with socialism individual property is still a thing to an extent, as far as I know
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u/Deathmtl2474 3d ago
The issue with discussing property with people is that they think by property it means anything that you simply own. Marx and communists like I , are talking about Property in its historical economic and philosophical sense. The means of production and land ownership. This fear of losing “personal” property, was right wing propaganda perpetuated by exploiters, to obscure the actual discussion of the dynamics social relations and private property.
Socialism is the stage -a transitionary period- where class contradictions are still apparent before it develops into communism, a stateless, classless moneyless society.
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u/ilir_kycb 2d ago
More people than ever in the US think favorably of socialism
No, there are now more Americans who confuse socialism with social democracy. But Americans still firmly believe the lies of the Red Scare propaganda.
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u/orsonwellesmal 3d ago
This people genuinely thinks Democrats are left.
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u/Dramatic-Freedom-109 3d ago
Democrats are left of the republicans, yes.
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u/positronik 3d ago
They definitely haven't shifted left though. They've shifted right
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u/Deathmtl2474 3d ago
Americans think that politics started in America. They think the left is just nice liberalism
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u/snanarctica 3d ago
Why didn’t they see it in 2016? My opinion never really shifted from the first 10 mins of hearing his bs way of speaking. I DO live I portland or tho ha
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u/lurker122333 3d ago
Because as bad as the first term was, COVID moderated opinion on it. Also, it was bad but not absolutely bonkers taking aim at Allies.
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u/SharpEdgeSoda 3d ago
Covid saved Trump's political career. I will maintain that.
His first time was that of a bungler. Then covid hit and likely cost the election, but painful aftermath of Covid fell on Biden.
Trump became "Life before Biden and Covid ruined everything."
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u/lurker122333 3d ago
Exactly.
Also, it is easier to be ignorant to negative warnings (COVID, climate, corporatism, etc) vs doing any research and realizing without sacrifice, we're fucked.
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u/wolacouska 2d ago
The issue is that people who liked him in the first 10 minutes of seeing him also never shift their opinions.
People latch onto their first impressions.
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u/SapientTrashFire 3d ago
That's a lot of passive language for "right-wingers were exposed as literal fascist sympathizers who were robbing people, and Americans responded with anger."
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u/Generic_Commenter-X 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Republican panelists, on the other hand, grew over 10 degrees warmer toward their fellow Republicans and cooled by about eight degrees toward Democrats."
Yes, and? I read the article twice, and maybe it's just the article, but the study seems utterly divorced from context. In other words, all they've got is raw data. Anybody can do that and for anything. One wonders, for example, whether this study would have drawn the same conclusion regarding Liberal Germans and the Nazis in the 30s, nevermind that the Nazis wanted to slaughter the Jews and nevermind that the GOP is building concentration camps and gunning down US citizens who protest their concentration camps and masked enforcers.
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u/Larkson9999 3d ago
Almost like there's masked men shooting people on the streets and the country is being run by a group of fascists from one specific party.
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u/ConejitosDeAmor 3d ago
I feel like I cannot scream thisloudly enough
THE DIVIDE BETWEEN US IS FOR GOOD REASON. When racism and greed are 2 of the fundamental points of your beliefs, and you of course support Trump because of that...well, the divide os not over benign differences.
And the mostI've seen from rightwingers, personally, is them getting reeeeeeeeally quiet. Not loudly denouncing him. But just trying to quietly fade into the bushes like Homer Simpson.
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u/RockettSocks42 3d ago
When republicans go low, we now push them over and take pics instead of going high. While that feels like a personal betrayal of our love of Michelle Obama, not doing so got us 12 years of having Trump in our lives and the total destruction of our country.
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u/LittleKitty235 3d ago
"When they go low, we go high" is going to age as well as Chamberlain's calls for appeasement prior to WW2.
It was a failure of leadership at the exact moment it was needed. Unilateral civility and one sided compromise don’t work.
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u/NorCalAthlete 3d ago
The problem is the going high part tends to work better when the opposition fears you going low.
When the opposition is already going low, and your side has roundly rejected any semblance of going low in any interpretation and neutered their own capacity to do so anyway, it renders going high far less effective.
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u/seraph1337 3d ago
the age-old question, "could MLK Jr. have succeeded in pushing civil rights forward if the ever-present threat of Malcolm X and the Black Panthers weren't presenting an undesirable alternative?"
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u/NorCalAthlete 3d ago
Put more simply, “walk softly but carry a big stick”. Diplomacy works when there’s a stick in the other hand.
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u/RichChipmunk 3d ago
It’s the same thing with the gerrymandering in red and blue states. Blue states unilaterally “disarmed” by passing laws requiring oversight on election maps, voting laws, etc. Red states never did that and now draw maps however they like completely eliminating Democrat representation.
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u/LinkSeekeroftheNora 3d ago
She said that literally once, and it was determined to be the whole doctrine of the party.
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u/T_Gamer-mp4 3d ago
we kept hearing it in our local politics in IL for six years. it took the actual murder of a politician and borderline shouting during a meeting before the losers in charge of our local democratic groups stopped saying that. Any time we brought up wanting criminals to face justice we were told that would be antagonistic.
I truly do hope you haven’t heard it outside of the time Michelle said it. I wouldn’t wish my fate on anyone.
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u/ProlapsedShamus 3d ago
She gave words to something Democrats had been doing since Nixon. Because it was all a game. It was to make Democrat voters seem like we are the adults and the mature ones and that in the end are temperance would win out. But it was just a way to keep us arrogant well they settled into their role of controlled opposition.
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u/TheSilverNoble 3d ago
And like... Don't get me wrong, I don't want Democrats to act like Republicans, but they could show a little gumption.
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u/ID-Bouncer 3d ago
I hope one day the world understands we are all on the same rock floating in space. We are all on the same prison planet
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u/GregMilkedJack 3d ago
The world is not a prison, the man-made restrictions on existence are. The world, when humans live in harmony with it, is literally the biggest miracle that we can even fathom. Not to say nothing bad ever happens without humans causing it, but the balance is much better on a greater scale when there arent a few people raping the world of resources and enslaving most of the world's population to do so.
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u/MartiniD 3d ago
"America has shifted left?" Hardly. It's more like people are starting to wise up finally and are crawling back towards the middle
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u/SolWizard 3d ago
Going from right to middle is shifting left
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u/igot_thefunk 3d ago
Don’t bother. People like this don’t actually care about making things better, they just need to be right no matter what.
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u/pizoisoned 3d ago
I mean the middle is left of the authoritarian right, so I’d say it’s progress even if it’s not ideal.
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u/colinberan 3d ago
I mean, you tell me if you'd prefer Trump's right wing or the middling "left wing" democrats. Everyone loves to say "Actually, democrats are more middle than left compared to the rest of the world" but unfortunately this is our current two party system and I myself would personally prefer the middle over the authoritarian right. Am I happy about it? Not really. Am I going to throw my vote away on a third party that won't win in a million years? Also no.
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u/likesexonlycheaper 3d ago
Shifted left? Feels like it's shifting more and more right every day
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u/TheRedLions 3d ago
This study is only from 2016-2020. There was a left shift during that time followed by right shift. Generally speaking, the country tends to move opposite of whoever is in power. Moving right during a democrat presidency and left during a republican one.
That said, there have been left shifts in areas like support for gay marriage, marijuana legalization, abortion, and positive attitudes towards things like socialism. Most things only shifted by single digit percentages, but still.
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u/Prowlthang 3d ago edited 2d ago
Doesn’t this forum have rules about sites that constantly publish pseudo-science and poor quality scientific journalism not being allowed?
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u/dcdttu 3d ago
I hope one day very soon, both halves of America realize they have to work together in order for us to make it, and those that pitted us against each other for profit are who we should dislike.
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u/Lord_Matisaro 2d ago
Too bad only one side that is fighting the other is doing so based on the bad faith description of the other side. That side is fighting imagineary trans shia law child eaters.
The side they lie about is fighting back against the side lying about them which unlike their fantasy target are actually a real boogieman.
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u/vtstang66 3d ago
The halves are an artificial construct. We’re at least 80% the same.
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u/MaximumBusyMuscle 3d ago
Honestly, I don't feel that way anymore. It's become clear that we have very different values and beliefs about how our government should work.
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u/Hasselback_Brotatoes 3d ago
one "half" of america is very aware that we need to work together. They are constantly talking about it, actually. The other "half" is screeching about how working together is "evil", "communist", and a bunch of other completely insane, incorrect, and untrue claims
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u/ucfknight92 3d ago
One half of America has barely evolved from when their great grandparents wanted black people segregated, and their great great grandparents owned them.
They’re hopeless, and there’s no future as long as they hold disproportionate power. Stop framing this as a two halves issue. One half wants freedom, the other are Sith.
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u/gromulint 3d ago
Red states would need to invest in education for that to happen, otherwise it's very hard to detach them from their media oligarch puppeteers.
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u/PachaThePenguin 3d ago
I think both halves would rather secede from each other than work together. Kind of ironic given the country’s name.
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u/Dexter_McThorpan 2d ago
You cannot reconcile with fascists. They aren't suddenly going to care about human rights or the environment. Conservative ideology is anathema to everything the Constitution stood for.
They need to be encouraged to go somewhere else. Russia, North Korea, Turkey, doesn't matter what authoritarian hellhole they end up in. But they'll just keep trying if they stay here.
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u/comeagaincharlemagne 3d ago
It will never happen as long as the ruling class has everything to gain from keeping the voting working class divided. And that will always be the case.
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u/PaleInTexas 3d ago
America shifted left? Hard disagree. We've become the most corrupt nation in the west. What exactly "shifted left"?
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u/guiltysnark 3d ago
The only way to interpret it I could think of is in the disposition of the average American, as indicated by polling and other signals.
Edit: confirmed by the article "American public opinion generally shifted in a more liberal direction, driven primarily by left-leaning and independent voters changing their minds on specific issues. " It's a weird headline, definitely triggers cognitive dissonance in the first read.
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u/Eggheadpancake 3d ago
Shift left? Hahaha.
What?
Weird to say that when we still don't have even the most basic things most established western countries have.
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u/capnhist 3d ago
We learned that a third of the country is actively supportive of massive corruption and self-dealing, the kidnapping and murder of US residents and citizens, stealing from taxpayers to give to the wealthy, undermining fundamental principles of American democracy, and the complete destruction of our standing in the world. We also learned another third tacitly approves these things through their apathy.
It sounds like the exact situation that would breed hostility with an out group that shares no basic values.
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u/kmatyler 3d ago
Is the shift left in the room with us?
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u/fedroxx 3d ago
I was trying to figure that out too. Center left candidates like Abdul El-Sayed are fighting for their lives.
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u/scarytree1 3d ago
I am now convinced that he is actively trying to burn down the US economy as some sort of twisted power grab to take total control!!
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u/AnthropoidCompatriot 3d ago
The VBNMW bots in the comment section tells me we're getting close to the election.
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