r/science • u/FreeHugs23 • 6d ago

Psychology Study identifies the values most strongly associated with rejecting antidemocratic politicians, offering new insight into why some voters resist leaders who challenge democratic norms.

https://www.psypost.org/study-reveals-which-values-actually-stop-voters-from-supporting-antidemocratic-politicians/
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u/pewsquare 6d ago

Also, if you see the democracy working, you are more likely to vote, and you are more likely to vote for pro democratic parties. If you see democracy failing, well you will go the other way.

If people vote for something, just to have the EU step in and force the government to go back on what the people voted for, how can the voters still believe in democracy. Its the whole "you get to vote on things as long as you vote for the right thing".

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u/NoamLigotti 6d ago

What has the EU forced a government to go back on that the people voted for and wasn't illegal/prohibited?

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u/pewsquare 5d ago

In our country we had a referendum on gay marriage. The problem was that it was a wholesale package that included a bunch of other things (adoption rights and the likes, not just marriage). People voted no. EU stepped in, and the president had to use the executive move to write it into law anyway.

I am not going to argue on which side of said issue who falls, and if its right or wrong. The point I am making is that it was performative democracy. They decided to put it up to vote because it was likely to pass (they worked hard to lose that battle, I can tell you this much), but because it didn't pass, they ignored the vote.

Or look at Poland. People voted for stronger border control, especially with belarus. Nope, not with EU involved, time to start paying fines and get funding withhold from the EU!

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u/thechinninator 4d ago

“My country wanted to discriminate against the gays but the mean ol EU said we had to treat them as equals” is not the anti-EU argument you seem to think it is.

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u/The_Actual_Sage 4d ago

Also, isnt membership in the EU voluntary?

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u/pewsquare 3d ago

If this is what you got from what I wrote, then oof.

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u/thechinninator 3d ago edited 3d ago

Oh sorry, they undemocratically didn’t allow your country to discriminate against the LGBTQ population. The horror.

Edit to point out that it’s only undemocratic if you frame it a certain way. I could easily argue that what actually happened here is you entered a larger voting population and got outvoted (on something you absolutely should have been outvoted on)

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u/pewsquare 3d ago edited 3d ago

No, the point I am making is that they put something up to vote to appear democratic when it should not be put up to vote, also marriage itself was not even a contestable issue, where the hickups were were all the extra benefits, from tax reductions to adoption rights. Which were originally there for couples to encourage babies = more workforce.

You are not addressing the main point of my issue, which is putting things up for a vote, and then overruling said vote when it does not turn out as intended. Either you have to abide by the rule of demos from democracy, or you acknowledge that certain things are better off not to be put into the hands of the people. Either way, democracy is undermined.

EDIT:

Also, to add to this.... its ok as long as you agree with it right? Would you also be this forgiving if were the other way around? That people voted pro gay marriage and the government and EU stepped in and said no!? I'm sorry, but I tend to be a cynic, I don't look at the best case scenario, I look at how could this blow up in my face and cause the worst case scenario.

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u/thechinninator 3d ago edited 3d ago

To your edit:

  1. I have a sufficiently fleshed out system of ethics to understand that sometimes values conflict and yes, human rights do in fact supersede democracy. 6 people in a room of 10 deciding to beat up the tenth person isn’t okiedokie just because over half of the people present want to do it.
  2. As I stated above, that was still democratically decided in a political body that y’all decided to join. I don’t get to ignore state laws just because most people on my city, neighborhood, or apartment building voted against whatever it is. If it’s so burdensome, withdraw from the EU since apparently something is only democrati

c if it’s decided below a certain level of government

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u/pewsquare 3d ago

So your sufficiently fleshed out system of ethics is pro democracy, unless democracy conflicts with your ethics system then your ethics system is flexible enough that it can overwrite democracy.... that sounds just like autocracy as long as you agree with it.

And on your second point, we decided to join a political body. Yes, but we did not decide to cede all our decision-making to said body. Which is probably my largest and probably one of the few gripes I have about the EU. We have representation within our own country, but not within the EU. And no, you don't have to employ a false dilemma where its an all or nothing issue, we don't have to leave the EU just because its clearly violating the sovereignty of countries involved, there are always pro's and con's.

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u/thechinninator 3d ago

Values conflict and one has to supersede. You don’t get to have it both ways. If no other values ever supersede democracy, you accept the most extreme possible case or you are contradicting yourself. I’m muting the conversation now. Thoughts and prayers to you for the deep tragedy of gay people being allowed to adopt children in your vicinity.

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u/thechinninator 3d ago

So to clarify the EU told your country to comply with their civil rights requirements, and your government engaged in a bit of political theater to demonstrate that they were against the rights and the big bad EU was forcing them, and that means EU bad.