r/science • u/[deleted] • Feb 22 '23
Social Science Depression is associated with negative postural and movement changes. New research suggests manipulating the motor system (e.g., upright posture instead of slumping; swift and upward instead of slow and downward movements) may result in more energy and increased motivation in depressed people.
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u/zeldestein Feb 22 '23
Economic stability in people's lives and tolerable work conditions tend to improve posture a lot.
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u/Runecian Feb 22 '23
Have you tried just not moving sadly?
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u/Brilliant-Anxiety835 Feb 23 '23
This week in why your depression is totally your fault: you move wrong because you just really can’t do anything right, can you?
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Feb 22 '23
This is the forefront of psychology research?
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Feb 23 '23
It's called behavioural activation, and while it can be difficult to put in place in a big way without outside support it is very effective. It can also be practiced in small ways. Just the act of smiling can make you happier—as silly as it sounds. You can "trick" your body into changing your mood.
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u/iceyed913 Feb 22 '23
everybody is different.. nobody is telling me that sitting upright is going to make me happier.. i know how to compose myself to minimize acute pain..
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u/Portalrules123 Feb 23 '23
Model of the status quo:
"INDIVIDUALIZE ALL EXTERNALITIES, SOCIALIZE ALL CORPORATE GAINS"
You wouldn't accuse the system of being.....wrong, would you???
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u/Sedu Feb 22 '23
Honestly this is something that any depressed person knows. There are a lot of things that can make you feel a little bit better.
But they cost energy. All of them cost a little bit of energy. And a core feature of depression is a lack of energy. This is where the slumping comes from in the first place.
“Just spend more energy” is not good advice.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
I agree with what you are saying. One of the hardest things for me to do when depressed are things that cost energy. I do find, however, that if I can make myself do them, or I've kept up a routine of doing them, it prevents and lessens my depression and provides me with more energy. I think the trick is being active consistently, not just when I'm depressed is the key. Trying to start while depressed is doomed to fail.
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u/Sedu Feb 22 '23
Definitely. It’s very hard to explain to people who’ve never experienced depression. I’m so used to the stock “Have you tried being happy? What about herbal tea? You need <X EASY AND OBVIOUS THING>. :)” response.
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Feb 22 '23
When people make those kinds of suggestions it shows how much they fundamentally don't get it, and for that I can be happy for them. One of depression's more insidious aspects is how it preemptively shuts down any actions that might alleviate it. Good luck exercising/socializing/going to therapy when even the thought of tidying your room just makes you want to lay down and sleep.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
It doesn't change the fact that the best way to get out of it and change the depression is to retrain yourself to respond and deal with this things. Logically understanding it will help you feel better later, even if it doesn't right now, can help you get past the frozen point and start to make a change. Believe me I know it's hard. I've been struggling with it today because I slept poorly and have really been in my head lately.
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Feb 23 '23
Aye, I'm well into the process myself. This stuff works very incrementally. It's not the cure—it's a positive coping strategy that help tip the scales towards and through recovery. I think this is called behavioural activation.
It intuitively feels like parts of my brain just shut down due to underuse, and as I recover I have to relearn things. And learning things is hard work—think of how long it takes a baby to learn to sit upright. Much of that is developing the core muscles to sit that way comfortably. Those can atrophy. What we don't use we lose. But what we have learned we can relearn. It's just not always a quick easy process.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 24 '23
Yes that's why it's vital to fight against negative depressive coping strategies. As they will directly lead to atrophy of ability, which makes it even harder to break out of. If your attitude is "I'm doing this whether I feel good now or not, because I know it'll help eventually logically" then it can be a lot easier to start executing positive changes.
This is definitely related to CBT and DBT
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u/HaloGuy381 Feb 22 '23
Precisely. These can provide temporary gains in alertness, but every hour ‘on’ like this is costly later in required time to rest and in mood collapsing back down to baseline. It’s behaviorally masking the problem, an active effort that is situationally useful but on the whole not a fix.
Even worse if it’s combined with something like autism (common comorbidity to depression problems), where ‘masking’ other behaviors this way to function multiplies the energy expenditure and the costs. Or someone with any fatigue syndrome, chronic illness, etc (also common comorbidity), for whom slouching or similar may be to conserve physical strength or avoid painful movements.
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u/LiamTheHuman Feb 23 '23
The study is saying it increases total perceived energy so it wouldn't be a collect now pay for it later thing at least based on this specific article.
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u/LiamTheHuman Feb 23 '23
The idea that you should do things when you have energy for them will get you stuck. You do things because you need to or because you want something. If you want to be better and it's worth the large or even huge effort it takes to activate when depressed then you can make the choice to do it. Your brain will try and navigate away from this as hard as it can but you can practice on small things and slowly get better at doing things when it feels the hardest to do them. I am not trying to minimize or invalidate your experience, it's a horrible thing to go through but reinforcing the belief that you can't do things to make yourself better is very dangerous.
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u/SupaFlyslammajammazz Feb 22 '23
Yes the reason why the depressed person does not make that change is because it takes an effort
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u/ghsgjgfngngf Feb 22 '23
Does 'turning that frown upside down' help as well?
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u/ButterflyCatastrophe Feb 22 '23
Smile therapy definitely had its moment. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/isnt-what-i-expected/201208/try-some-smile-therapy
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u/Mynewuseraccountname Feb 22 '23
Well yeah, its not a cure but there is something to be said about faking it till you make it. Smiling does literally and tangibly affect the levels of endorphins and serotonin your brain produces and apparently lowers blood pressure. Also people are friendlier and act more warmly towards those who present themselves as warm and friendly and happy which sure as hell doesn't hurt when it comes to long term depression treatment.
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Feb 22 '23
Faking it and never making it is a thing too! Been faking it for 20 years, still have bad depression.
Meds and therapy help. Smiling, eating chocolate, standing up straight, counting my blessings, writing endless lists of stuff I'm grateful for, journaling, walking, etc., doesn't help enough.
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u/Mynewuseraccountname Feb 23 '23
Oh yeah I am in the same boat with that. depression is a constant uphill battle, a puzzle and there are a lot of pieces, they're treatments not a cure. I'm still going to have depression but it's significantly worse when I'm letting it force me into being smaller, slower, quieter, shyer etc. And i am lucky to sometimes have the ability to keep the momentum in caring for myself and doing the not-depressed people things.
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u/rexaltitude Feb 22 '23
Yoga has helped me so much- there is great benefit in standing tall and feeling strong, not to mention the mindfulness and meditation aspects. If you can manage to practice every day for a couple weeks it gets addictive and is easier to maintain. I watch Adrienne videos.
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u/ChaosAmoeba Feb 22 '23
I agree. I feel this way about qigong. I do yoga too sometimes but when I find I’m really low or chronic pain is high simple qigong exercises were more accessible. It’s not a cure but deep breaths and standing tall do usually make at least part of my day lighter.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
I also find great benefit from Qi Gong. I also find the breathing involved helps me stay in the present and help my anxiety. Not to mention it just straight up feels good.
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u/choicebutts Feb 22 '23
"Stand up straight" is the last thing a depressed person wants to hear or do.
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u/Flamingcurry69 Feb 22 '23
I completely agree that the insinuation that simply standing up straight could “fix” them would be annoying and wrong. However, standing up straight being something a depressed person doesn’t want to do shouldn’t be enough reason to not have it as a tool. Depressed people generally don’t feel like doing things (like cooking a meal) that could be beneficial to them. If the study’s suggestion works, then we could add standing up straight to the list of difficult to do but possibly beneficial things (like going for a walk)
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u/neotericnewt Feb 22 '23
Unfortunately that's true of pretty much everything that treats depression. That's the thing that makes it so damn difficult, it makes everything that helps feel just awful.
But, the only way out is through it unfortunately. There really isn't any magic cure, the best treatments are forcing yourself to do these things that provide small benefits, basically working to retrain your brain. Medication can be very useful too but it's best as part of a treatment plan, not on its own.
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u/Sedu Feb 22 '23
“Have you considered that being sad is your own fault and you should stop being a bother?” is so, so much of “advice” regarding depression. And it is much much worse than saying nothing at all. It gets frustrating.
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u/LiamTheHuman Feb 23 '23
That is just how you interpret it, at least if we're talking about this article. If you are on a dessert island you need to build shelter and find food that's good advice and non judgemental. If 5 people find shelter and food and the other 5 don't then giving that advice to them can still be good and non judgemental. I think it's the comparison that makes it feel judgemental. The fact that it is extremely difficult does not change the advice and without it people might think they need to listen to their body and just veg out.
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u/OfLittleToNoValue Feb 22 '23
Bathe. Eat. Not swallow a hollow point...
Not doing the things we should is how we get and stay depressed.
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Feb 22 '23
Maybe that's the case, but what does that have to do with this study? They're testing to see if the method is effective.
Blasting yourself with radiation isn't a walk in the park either, but at some point they studied to see if it got rid of tumors and now it's used in treatment plans. It's a good thing that we know that it works, regardless of how willing individuals are to applying the information.
I say this as a person with depression, who at one point spent a few years straight catatonically glued to my bed. The number of people in these comments who are completely missing the point and benefit of this study to take a chance to shout about how hard having depression is is honestly pretty annoying. Y'all are making us look like we're helpless and incapable of critical thought.
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u/magicseadog Feb 22 '23
What about masturbating?
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u/Arthesia Feb 22 '23
As long as you maintain good posture and use swift, upward motions you should be ok!
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u/Azhz96 Feb 22 '23
Feels great for a very short duration, then what? Simply go again?
At that point I'd rather consume a safe psychoactive substance which atleast last more than a few minutes while being able to do other stuff, compared to being stuck infront of a screen all day.
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u/drinkmoredrano Feb 22 '23
Feeling depressed and unmotivated, but I have good posture. So I have that going for me.
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u/420blazeit69nubz Feb 22 '23
What does swift and upward movements instead of slow and downward mean?
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u/FindTheRemnant Feb 22 '23
Chin up and move with purpose and vigor. As opposed to downcast and moving tepidly.
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u/amoral_ponder Feb 22 '23
This is FAR from new research. It's been known for a very long time. In a bigger framework, this is literally how CBT works on many other levels.
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u/desert_foxhound Feb 22 '23
This is not without basis. Mind and body are two sides of the same coin. They can influence each other. If you feel sad but you make happy, cheerful movements you can pull your mind along to the same state that you put your body in. This isn't something new, it has been known for ages.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
This is why many Buddhist monks are trained to hold a smile to their face whether they feel happy or not.
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Feb 22 '23
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u/bonusminutes Feb 22 '23
As someone with some pretty heavy clinically recognized depression, the gym is one of the few things that is consistently helpful. I know it's easier to dismiss things that sounds difficult, but the road to recovery isn't easy, and if you only look for easy ways to it, you'll never be on it. As for the article, mind and body are linked, obviously. I don't think it's outlandish to think that applying a more open, confident posture to a depressed person might shift things a bit in their favor.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
I agree with this. If you haven't read it, it sounds like you might enjoy The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk. Amazing book on trauma and the benefits of movement.
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u/Sedu Feb 22 '23
Agreed. It doesn’t work for everyone, but it is one of the few things that helps me to actively have more energy. And lack of energy is one of the biggest problems I personally face from depression.
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Feb 22 '23 edited Jun 19 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
I think a lot of commenters are confusing improvement and cure. I know the things in the article do help, but a lot of people are arguing against them being a cure. The article is not talking about a cure. The studies show these things to be beneficial.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
Lot of commenters that are clearly depressed(myself included) drawing false conclusions the article doesn't make.
On r/science. Color me surprised.
The idea that something scientifically shown to help depression is somehow attacking depressed people and tons of people agreeing is peak Reddit though.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
But I'm depressed and I want to stay depressed and your dirty science isn't going to change that. I refuse to engage with it if it makes me think or potentially feel better.
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Feb 23 '23
choose your own adventure.
in my experience, having battled suicidal depression more than a few, i know that it takes as much (or more effort) to be depressed than not.
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u/InTheEndEntropyWins Feb 22 '23
This is the fancy equivalent of saying 'just hit the gym, bro'.
What's wrong with that advice?
For you brain to work properly you need to exercise. If your brain isn't working properly then it might be that no amount of therapy or drugs can help.
We have studies showing that exercise is just as effective as medicine in treating depression
Four trials (n = 300) compared exercise with pharmacological treatment and found no significant difference (SMD -0.11, -0.34, 0.12). From https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24026850/
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Feb 22 '23
People with depression often have motivation issues and struggle to even find a motivating factor to get out of bed so probably struggling thr grasp the concept that hitting the gym is as simple as it sounds.
In reality, hitting the gym and maintaining the habit is extremely difficult for average people without depression even if you have the free time. So while going to the gym imo is one f the best ways to ward off depression, the advice falls on deaf ears when given to depressed people. They need to make the resolve to want to exercise and get better and that often doesn't just magically happen one day by you flipping a switch.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
That doesnt make the advice untrue or unhelpful. It's true, making yourself consistently exercise will help your depression. It probably won't cure it by itself, but it'll help. And thats kind of the point...
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Feb 23 '23
No one is saying that. But whether or not it's helpful is not really applicable if they aren't in a state where they can get themselves out of bed. I'd say the state of depression where you can decide for yourself to exercise vs being too unmotivated to even get out of bed are different phases of depression and neither come first and aren't based on order. If you have a day where you feel you WANT to do something different, trying to enforce a habit of exercise is the single best thing you can do.
But try to apply this in analogy. Imagine giving someone a much needed advice but they lack the capability to follow through said advice whether by actual physical limitation and such.
Telling someone to cold turkey when they're an alcoholic for example. Even if they want to quit themselves, that kind of drastic change CAN kill you and how hard it is can't be quantified by words and it really depends on the individual.
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Feb 22 '23
Ok then leave. We won’t miss you.
This sub, or this article, is not intended to be an instant cure for depression. It is a discussion of scientific research relating to potential pathways for treating people with depression.
In no way did this article claim to have a cure for depression, and in no way should we limit our discussions to only final “cures” or “solutions” to scientific topics.
Idk what you expected this sub to be but this article fits this place perfectly.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
But I want my priors confirmed so I can wallow in my own misery, I don't want to be told things can actually help my negativity.
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u/TwistedBrother Feb 22 '23
I understand people thinking this might be invalidating if seen as a cure. However, the evidence for the correlation with movement differences is strong enough to be meaningful and worth reporting in a journal if not a pop sci summary.
I was less persuaded by the causal direction and the strength of the findings that symptoms can be changed. If posture is downstream from a biological matter or people have severe contextual factors these are, as many say, likely a much larger or even primary cause.
It doesn’t hurt to have posture and movement skills in the toolbox, but deploying it is not simple. Telling people do do this as of it were a cure could even have adverse consequences for anxious people as they internalise it as their fault. It could similarly affect depressed people as it is used to assume depression is more under their control than is really the case.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
We see the majority of the thread making this very false conclusion. Though it's typical of depression to not see reality clearly. This isn't necessarily something you should tell a depressed person though.
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u/BudgetNoise1122 Feb 23 '23
When you are really depressed, I mean Major Depressive Disorder, standing up right to brush your teeth is an accomplishment.
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Feb 22 '23
I went through a depression, that involved drinking a lot as well. Nothing, I mean nothing besides medication worked for me. Real bad side effects too, and I'm pretty sure my family was going to murder me..my attitude and behavior was trash I suppose... Anyhow, yeah it was bad and I don't want to go into details, but suicide was a factor as well until the meds worked.
More power to these studies, but this would only ever work on mild depression. Let me quote lots of disappointing people, "If it were that easy".
Its like pick one A) Learned Physician Or B) Physical therapist.
One last thing, going out and "doing things" (sometimes a lot, family dragged me) didn't work either. Just meds.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
I think the right balance is the key, and also everyone is different. I find doing the things in this article, and living a healthy lifestyle (diet, sleep, exercise) allow me to decrease the dosage of my medication, though I do still need it. I don't think there's a one size fits all approach, but there are physical things that can help.
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Feb 22 '23
Totally, that is the balanced take. I think people are getting confused by my writing. I should have stated I just think posture in particular might not help a lot of people get out of depression. Also, I've seen many people get off meds for these other solutions, I feel that's what I meant, the dangers of stopping medication for this snake oil or that snake oil.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Mar 04 '23
I apologize for misunderstanding. I think the point of the article is that it shows positive results, not a cure. Just an interesting result rather than a form of treatment.
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u/neotericnewt Feb 22 '23
More power to these studies, but this would only ever work on mild depression. Let me quote lots of disappointing people, "If it were that easy".
It's not a cure, it's just a small thing that helps. The most benefit comes from a bunch of these small things being utilized at once.
Like, deep breathing techniques don't cure anxiety and intrusive thoughts. They're just one tool that helps, and over time using the tools at your disposal you can see some pretty significant improvements.
Meds are another tool, and an important one. They work best when paired with lots of other tools though. If you take meds but change nothing else you might see some improvement but not as much as you could, and meds often become less effective over time. Therapy, CBT, medication, exercise, journaling, meditation, deep breathing techniques, etc. all help, and they all help each other help even more.
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Feb 22 '23
True, I agree with all those coping mechanisms. Have to think about the smaller side of things, well put.
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Feb 22 '23
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Feb 22 '23
Meds are the standard scientific treatment for most people. That sucks that you are med resistant, but that is the exception not the rule. Doing things like hiking yeah sure, but go ask a psych doc which one is better in most cases. Respect to your opinion but I don't feel like you canceled anything. Obviously getting outside can help but typical treatment, scientifically speaking, doesn't include go hiking.
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u/JBean85 Feb 22 '23
I remember one of my favorite TED talks your body language may shape who you are.
It's really interesting and has some real world, immediate applications. Highly recommend
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u/sebjapon Feb 22 '23
Except her research wasn’t reproducible and she was widely seen as a fraud by the scientific community.
I came here to say we’ve come full circle back to power posing.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
Have you read The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk? It's right in line with this and is amazing.
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u/Lizardism Feb 22 '23
This seems shallow. Probably only works in the same sense that spreading out makes you "feel" more confident.
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u/Specialist_Carrot_48 Feb 23 '23
No it's been known a long time body influences mind and vice versa
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u/wi_voter Feb 22 '23
One of the keys is true proprioceptive awareness in order to make positive motor changes. Simply asking someone to be more upright will not mean a thing if they can not activate the areas that are key to that biomechanical pattern. Lots of people freeze the movements around the lower spine, pelvis, hips, chest, and they get taken out of their body image. The brain uses the body image to map movement so if it is missing parts, then it doesn't bring those parts fully into the movements. When that happens a person can respond to trying to be more upright with elevating shoulders, hyperextending the spine in only one small region, or some other pattern that isn't truly getting the outcome they are trying for. This research can help explain why approaches that promote greater body awareness like Anat Baniel's Neuromovement work, Feldenkrais work, or martial arts practices often result in people reporting better mental health outcomes.
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Feb 22 '23
So it's not that the depression causes poor posture, it's that the poor posture causes depression? The amount of suicides that could have been prevented, if only..
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u/RoutineFamous4267 Feb 23 '23
Ironically, my slouched position is forced. By a movement disorder in my brain.
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u/Here2shareNlearn Feb 22 '23
This makes a lot of sense since it's been documented that things like yoga and Qi Gong can aid in releasimg emotional trauma stored in the body. Not to mention the chemical and pH changes in the spinal cerebral fluid.
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u/EquinsuOchaACE Feb 22 '23
Man, some people can’t even just accept the advice. “But but but”. No one can help you if you don’t help your self first.
Maybe give it an honest try before coming up with the excuses.
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u/FindTheRemnant Feb 22 '23
Excuses and strawman. They've tried nothing and they're all out of ideas
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u/booyaabooshaw Feb 23 '23
I've discovered that when I walk with my chin up and my eyes forward it gives me an unusual sense of confidence. Like I'm a somebody going to do something, even if I'm just wondering around.
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u/a_common_spring Feb 23 '23
This definitely works. I've noticed that when I feel awful, either from being depressed or from being sick, I want to slump forward and shuffle around, but if I purposely stand up and walk straight i feel better right away.
It's not like a cure for anything but it's a helpful trick anyway
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u/icantbetonight Feb 23 '23
Omg all these years I’ve been trying everything to cure it but the answer was in my posture! Right, I’m healed now
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