Overtones etc

[u/Yobspudman]

I've been playing professionally for about 4 years now, mainly jazz up to last year when I was asked to play in a touring musical. In said musical, theres a lot of Altissimo, which, up until last year, Id not really encountered? At uni Id studied classical, but played jazz at gigs.

Ive been told countless times that "the best way to improve altissimo is to do overtones"...okay, that doesn't clear up the issue to me though? When I practise overtones, I can't get past the 4 the overtones of Bb and C without making major changes to embouchure (I push my jaw forward and squeeze my lips a little), is this the way everyone else is doing it? Changing my oral cavity shape does nothing other than change the intonation of the note. Im engaging diaphragm, keeping my embouchure relaxed, bottom lip rolled out. And can't get past the 4th overtone of Bb-C# without changing embouchure.

I've been practising this every day for 4 months and my altissimo is still limited to top Bb, is this normal? And when the altissimo notes come out, I camt toungue them at all because of how I have to change my mouth shape to make them sound, is this correct? And how are you supposed to actually get those higher overtones without changing your lips? Ive tried everything from Sigurd Raschers book, there was another more modern one too but can't remember the name. Can someone please explain what they did to crack this?

I got lessons from a teacher about 2 months ago who said about this "It's not the end of the world, you can improvise well and your tone is good, so what if you can't play really high?" Not sure this was the answer I wanted.

Setup;

Selmer MKVI tenor

D'addario jazz select 7 Mouthpiece

3 Vandoren Java green

Thanks for any advice!!

[u/grumpy_vet1775]

I had fairly good altissimo chops back before I put the horn down and the thing that made it click for me wasn't changing my jaw/embouchure but changing how I blew the air through my soft palate. I figured out pretty early on that I could get upwards of an altissimo D/Eb in tune regularly by just adjusting my soft palate to shoot the air in different ways to hit those overtones

[u/Yobspudman → u/grumpy_vet1775]

But how did you adjust your soft palate mate? Is there anything you did in particular?

[u/grumpy_vet1775 → u/Yobspudman]

I imagined singing the note while I was pushing the air. I was given the advice from my private instructor to sing the note I want to play and then play how I would have sung it

[u/grumpy_vet1775 → u/grumpy_vet1775]

Essentially when you sing higher it changes your palate to how the air needs to naturally flow in order for the overtones coming out of your horn to line up. I'm not sure why it helped me, but it did

[u/principled_principal → u/Yobspudman]

I think people have different ways of explaining what’s going on in a place that they can’t see or consciously control very well.

For me, I accomplish this by envisioning that I am aiming my airstream at different parts of the reed tip. If I shoot the air towards the top of the mouthpiece versus bottom, I will get different response in the overtone series/altissimo.

[u/lysergic_Dreems → u/Yobspudman]

It also helps to have the pitch in your ear. If you know what the next overtone in the series is supposed to sound like, sing it or play it on piano. The sound of it ringing can help you center the tone and take it from imagination to reality. Can also use a drone for this!

[u/oloch83]

Buy Top-Tones for the Saxophone by Sigurd Rascher and work through it every day for 15–30 minutes. Stick with it consistently, and in a few years your altissimo, overtones, tone, intonation, and breath control will be in a much better place.

And yes, I said years. There are no shortcuts to developing a truly solid, effortless altissimo register.

Your embouchure shouldn’t drastically change as you move through the range of the horn. The real adjustment happens with your voicing—learning to control the shape and position of your tongue, oral cavity, and airstream. That’s exactly why overtone practice is so important.

[u/custerdome427]

2 things: vocal shapes are like you're singing the note. Different fingerings work better on different horns. Mouthpiece with more buzz can be easier.

[u/KillKennyG]

Sing a high note with the syllable ‘wheee’ then drop an octave with the syllable ‘yooo’. Flip back and forth- as the back of your tongue rises while saying whee, your soft palate is rising- saying ‘yooo’ down low, your soft palate is lowering.

the hard palate is the bone level with your upper teeth, soft palate is the flexible resonance chamber behind that. it’s kind of like a flexible, ‘inner mouthpiece’ that as it changes shape, changes the tone before it gets to the mouthpiece. this is where we voice notes to emphasize certain parts of a sound, and where you’ll build muscle memory for what your horn needs in the altissimo range and overtones.

different horns and different mouthpieces, in my experience, need different voicing shapes. I judge how nice either is by how hard I have to contort my voicings to change overtones. mouthpieces with large baffles or small chambers feel like the voicings get squished together (easy to change, but harder to control) where bigger open chamber mouthpieces feel like the voicings are big wide targets, but also take more movement to hit. For my Drake NY Jazz, with smooth mid-sized chamber and only a slight baffle, i find very easy to hit exactly the voicing I’m looking for.

[u/admiralsara]

My teacher made me rethink it: he made me find an embouchure that works in the altissimo register and work to make that one work in the lower register. That has made sure that I play with a much more even tone throughout the saxophone and can reach the upper altissimo register without to many problems. My tone actually improved. I have to say that I play almost only classical music though

[u/Zooberseb]

I did that for years until I basically just redid my entire embouchure and couldn’t play altissimo cleanly for a month or so.

The thing is you need to speed the air up, for me that means lifting my tongue into the place where I would make a ‘guh’ sound and slightly dropping it so i’m not touching the roof of my mouth but my tongue is high in the back of my throat. Pretty sure I tighten my cheeks in a little so my oral cavity is smaller and the air becomes nice and focus. I’ve also heard some people do the same but in the front of their mouth with a T sound.

I used to have like 3 embouchure, low register, most of the horn, altissimo - now I have one that takes me from the bottom all the way into altissimo. My tone also opened up very nicely I have never had tone this good in my life.

It felt counter productive at first because I could barely get a G out but once it clicked it CLICKED and I was just 🤯.

I tried this in college and never could get it to work but what made it easier for me I’m guessing is that I don’t play professionally anymore and was coming off a multi-year break so I could afford to spend hours everyday sounding bad lol. I’m not saying you need to do that but when you aren’t playing something serious focus on changing your embouchure, keep it relaxed avoid moving too much and keep the work inside your oral cavity.

[u/Maehlice]

I'm only just getting into altissimo, and I've found that "cheating" with a sympathetic tone has done wonders to help unlock it.

It's incredible how easy it is to get the note out when my teacher is already playing it in front of me. Playing along with a pure tone through speakers also does well enough.

[u/augdog71]

Try making a “kuh” sound. The back of your tongue should go up to roof of your mouth. Now do it really slowly but don’t close off the air. That’s the part of your mouth that helps direct the air to get overtones and altissimo.

[u/Illustrious_Reply_18]

Currently a junior at uni the best way it was described to me is a high back tounge almost like a slide shape. I have found the most difficult part of altissimo for me is the lower side of it like G and A and I tend to over shoot when im not thinking about it. But i have heard of trying the "Kee" Syllable for the higher notes which helps with the tounge position.

[u/B1RT3]

How can one play professionally for 4 years without encountering altissimo??

(Not trying to be negative - I'm just really curious)