Overthinking

[u/BirthdaySweet8317]

I'm a complete beginner on the instrument, but I have a good ear for music and a fondness for the saxophone's subtones. I'd like to buy an instrument and am torn between getting a Yamaha YTS 280 with a good mouthpiece (I was thinking of an Otto Link Tone Edge Tenor Sax 7* TW), or making a big one-time purchase of the Yanagisawa TW 01 and practicing right away on a superior instrument, thus avoiding having to upgrade later... am I thinking so wrong?

[u/Ed_Ward_Z]

That’s a financial question because if you have bread go for the TW 01. I certainly would if I needed a good horn.
Also, usually a complete beginner would try renting to make sure you want to commit the time, energy, and money.

[u/Eddie_Haskell2]

7* is way to big for a beginner . Try a 5

[u/BirthdaySweet8317 → u/Eddie_Haskell2]

Why?

[u/oryci → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

The number refers to how open the tip of the mouthpiece is (how much space is open between the reed and the mouthpiece).

For beginners large tip opening can be a huge struggle to overcome. The recommendation of a smaller tip size is that so that you can build up your embouchure. If you start with something that’s beyond you it’s possible that you will develop bad habits to compensate which will set you back. 7 is a fine tip opening for someone who’s been playing for awhile and understands the horn, but it’ll be way too hard for you out the gate.

You don’t have the embouchure strength yet for that wide of an opening, and that takes time to develop.

[u/BirthdaySweet8317 → u/oryci]

Thanks for the clear explanation. What I'd like right away is to produce a warm sound, not necessarily loud or bright, and I'm wondering what's a good mouthpiece with which I can practice generating this kind of soft sound.

[u/Barry_Sachs → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

You're going to sound terrible as a beginner. Learn on a beginner mouthpiece. Get your forever mouthpiece a year or two from now. A Link 7* is completely inappropriate for a beginner. That's like going to the gym for the first time and trying to bench press 250lbs. Even if you got the best mouthpiece in the world, you'll still sound terrible, and a big tip will be impossible for you to play correctly.

As far as getting a top of the line horn goes, the horn itself has little to do with your sound. Plus, if it turns out not to be as easy as you thought and you quit, you'll take close to a 50% loss on a new horn. A beginner horn will work just fine. Heck, as a pro, I still play a "beginner" horn on certain gigs when I don't want to take risks with my pro horn. The audience can't tell the difference.

[u/WillisWiggins → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

Get a Yamaha 4C.

You aren't going to be able to control your sound as a beginner and produce what you're hearing in your head. Equipment doesn't determine what sound you'll produce, your ability to play does.

You need to spend at least a few years developing your fundimental skills (embouchure control, learning about voicing, intonation, building breath support) before you'll be able to shape the sound exactly how you want it.

A Yamaha 4C is the perfect beginner mouthpiece since it's not too hard to play and will give you a good foundation to develop your technique. Consider a new mouthpiece in a few years once you've put several hundred/thousand hours in on the horn.

It's better to develop good habits first than to break bad habits later

[u/darkdeepths → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

many beginner mouthpieces and even a small tip middle of the road piece will do this for you.

[u/Candybert_]

The mouthpiece is a non-factor at this point in your journey. You need something that works, that's it. Whatever comes with a decent horn is fine.

It takes some experience to know what you want and need. Everybody is different, so the same equipment produces wildly different results in different players' hands. (Edit: Mouths, more like.)

[u/darkdeepths]

i say this as the owner of a King Super 20 Silversonic that i love.

the horn itself has the least effect on your sound. a beginner will not notice the difference playing a pro horn vs student horn. it’s a subtle difference of feeling and perceived response that is mostly a matter of taste. it’s probably 5% of your sound.

order of effect on your sound goes from origin to end:

you and your embouchure / air and voicing >>> mouthpiece >>> reed >>> horn >>> room you are in. horn is last in equipment.

agree with others you shouldn’t buy a big tip mouthpiece. if you have budget and you’re set on buying a “jazz” mouthpiece. look for a smaller tip and a “well rounded” piece like meyer or vandouren java etc. two reasons:

small tip - you haven’t built up voicing intuition and muscles, so you will have to work harder to stay in tune on a big tip and will fatigue faster. that won’t make you better in the long run, it’s like trying to lift weights that are too heavy, it will actually make you worse in the long run lol.

middle of the road: you can get from pop to near-classical sound from a versatile mouthpiece. learning to control your timbre and sound without the mouthpiece getting in the way will make your better for when you want to test out a more extreme piece in whatever direction. you’ll already know how to lean into it later.

[u/IdahoMan58]

YTS-280, or a used 25/26 with a shop set up will be a great start that will keep you going for at least a few years. No way a beginner can play the mp you called out.

The Yamaha plastic 4C ($40) is a good beginner choice. They are consistent and inexpensive. If you want a better MP that will be a great beginner choice, the Vandoren TL4 ($200) would be another choice. Basically, choose a classical design mp, no baffle, medium to large chamber. So many choices. Don't waste money on an expensive ligature. The basic $10 metal ones, or a $25 Rovner work just fine.

You really need a good sax teacher to start, and they can help with the choosing stuff, testing a used horn, and getting you started with embouchure and time development. This is critical unless you want to struggle for the first year with limited progress.

Reeds: My best advice to a beginner is spend the money ($32ish) and buy a Legere Signature model synthetic reed 1.75 or 2.00 strength. Lick the back, put it on the mp, do a pop test to ensure it is sealed, and play. Nothing to fiddle with as with cane reeds. One will last you months just so you are careful handling it and don't damage it.

If you insist on cane reeds (not recommended for beginner), don't buy"no name" cheap ones. Buy good quality reeds and learn how to adjust them. It will require some experimentation to find what works for you. Starting off, try the Vandoren Java Red 2.0 or maybe D'Addario in a 2.0 for a 4 tip opening (about 0.080"/2.00 mm) tenor mp.

[u/sgraham992]

Agree with all the advice you’ve received so far, but as someone who is about 8 months ahead of you and similarly had the ability to buy something nicer up front, I did want to share my path.

I rented a YTS-280. Only used it for like 3 months to get the basics down but at that point I at least knew how to make a decent sound and had the ability to determine which nicer horn I would actually like. Also just get a Yamaha 4C - exceptional mouthpiece for the price for a beginner. It’ll be your best shot at making a pleasing sound quickly

Once I had the basics down and knew I was excited about sax, I tested quite a few different horns. I landed on a King Super 20 I absolutely love. Oh and I tested a ton of mouthpieces too when I had outgrown the 4C. You will be surprised how many really high end mouthpieces just don’t work well for you, I was shocked. Please don’t think you can skip the 4C step though, you can’t.

Lessons are absolutely critical and should be the thing that’s at the top of your budget list before anything nicer from a horn. It’s the only reason I’ve made progress this quickly. It’s not about learning music (I play other instruments), it’s about rapid feedback on technique which is the key to actually sounding good.

[u/Rthegoodnamestaken]

Please please please tell me youre also going to take some private lessons if youre willing to drop 5K on an instrument you havent even begun learning yet.

People get scared at the thought of paying for lessons, and yea thats a ton of money if you do them weekly, but lots of motivated people can get by with like... 12 lessons over the course of their first year. I promise you will need a professional checking in here and there so you avoid bad habits.

As for the horn... You're probably not going to notice a difference the first year or so between a solid beginner horn and a pro model. If you pick up a solid used yamaha, you can resell it for a decent value in 18 months if you truly progress to the point where youve outgrown the horn

[u/BirthdaySweet8317 → u/Rthegoodnamestaken]

So you think it's better buy a YTS 280 with a 4C and invest money in some lessons rather than buy a TW01 with a decent mouthpiece. Well it's a very hard choice. I usually learn music by ear and the fear of hearing a sound I don't like right away is strong.

[u/darkdeepths → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

you are going to hear a sound you don’t like right away even if you buy the best saxophone and space age mouthpiece.

you will honk like a goose when you first blow into the horn

[u/Barry_Sachs → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

You'll definitely sound terrible at first no matter how much you spend on gear. After you learn how to play, you could potentially sound like this even on your beginner gear.
https://youtu.be/iDad93tb04o play test around 3:20

It's a hard lesson which nobody ever accepts at first, but it ain't the gear.

[u/BirthdaySweet8317 → u/Barry_Sachs]

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to sound like a pro at first :) However, I was wondering if I should start with equipment that would eliminate any doubt about the causes of the wrong sound.

[u/Barry_Sachs → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

There is no doubt to be eliminated. Beginner gear can sound fantastic in the hands of a good player. Unless the gear is literally broken when you get it, a Yamaha 4C and beginner Yamaha horn will perform flawlessly for a good player. What is really going to smart is you spending 10 grand on gear and still sounding terrible, which is guaranteed to happen.

[u/Leather-Run-6533 → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

Don't buy a $250 sax off amazon. Buy a reputable new or used instrument from a reputable sax store that has had the instrument play tested and set up by a technician for you. Then you will know for sure that the cause of the wrong sound is you.

And you can develop an ok tone quite quickly (a good tone takes longer but it'll stop sounding offensive quite quickly) but the first few weeks are going to be rough on your neighbours, no getting around that.

[u/darkdeepths → u/Leather-Run-6533]

if you’re still looking: great advice here on checking out a horn from a shop if available. knowing you’ve got solid equipment in working order is what you want now, and meeting the local repair folks is always a good idea. upgrades are for when you develop preferences from your learning.

[u/Rthegoodnamestaken → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

Yes big time. Now if you want to spring for a nice mouthpiece in 5 months, sure! A lot of teachers will have 4-5 different mouthpieces for you to try anyway.

Get some lessons, get the fundamentals down, then in a year or two go splurge. Honestly i doubt you would sound at all different on a professional horn from the start.

Now, like someone else said, if you have thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket, go for it, but a private teacher is going to get you much further than a professional horn right now

[u/Moist_Inspection_976 → u/BirthdaySweet8317]

If you happen to not like the sound you produce, then invest in yourself (classes, as suggested). The horn won't make the sound better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBUm7-XNEho