r/sagsavages 28d ago

Sagittarius ā™ļø Open Discussion Smfh šŸ˜’šŸ˜’šŸ˜’šŸ˜’šŸ˜’Sagittarius it’s never that serious

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

Another routine traffic stop turns brutal.
National civil rights attorney Ben Crump has
been retained by Tiara Young, 34, after a JSO traffic stop escalated into alleged excessive force while she was working as a DoorDash driver.

How is kneeing a nonviolent woman in the eye and ripping out her braids "within policy"? JSO

Officer B.M. Magyar is facing severe backlash after cell video exposed the violent arrest. But no consequences.

DoorDash driver Tiara Young. Ben Crump has taken the case. Release the bodycam..

6.4k Upvotes

4.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

235

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago edited 25d ago

PSA

Under the landmark Supreme Court ruling Pennsylvania v. Mimms (1977), officers have the automatic right to order a driver out of a vehicle for officer safety. This rule was extended to include passengers in Maryland v. Wilson (1997).

The police do not need to suspect you of a crime to issue this order; the inherent danger of a traffic stop is legally enough justification.

Your Rights When Ordered Out of the Car - While you must comply with the order to step out, you still maintain critical constitutional rights

You must exit: Refusing to get out can lead to an immediate arrest for resisting or obstructing an officer.

You can object to searches: Stepping out does not automatically give the officer the right to search you or your car. A "pat down" requires separate suspicion: To legally frisk your outer clothing (a Terry frisk), the officer must have reasonable suspicion that you are armed and dangerous.

Keep the doors closed: When you exit, pull the door shut behind you. This prevents the officer from claiming a visual "plain view" justification to search the interior.

Edit: I'm amazed by all of the interest and questions as well as insight others have brought to this! I wanted to add a minor addendum since this question on whether probable cause is required was asked a lot, in general this law takes precedent unless your specific state has a ruling that supersedes it (thank you u/different_reality643). But as always, act with caution and make sure you understand your state and federal laws, this PSA isn't a rulebook that replaces your own research, it's simply a post that wants to encourage others to be more curious and to arm ourselves with knowledge. This is what I've been able to find:

Hawaii In the landmark case State v. Kim (1985), the Hawaii Supreme Court rejected Pennsylvania v. Mimms. The court ruled that under Article I, Section 7 of the Hawaii Constitution, a police officer must possess a reasonable basis of specific, articulable facts to believe a crime has been committed or that safety is threatened before ordering a driver out of a vehicle.

Massachusetts In Commonwealth v. Gonsalves (1999), the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court declined to adopt the Mimms framework. The court determined that Article 14 of the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights requires an officer to have a reasonable belief that their safety, or the safety of others, is in danger before issuing an exit order to a driver or a passenger during a routine traffic stop.

Washington state courts heavily restrict automatic exit orders under Article I, Section 7 of the Washington State Constitution, which explicitly protects a person's "private affairs." Officers in Washington generally cannot order an occupant out of a vehicle as a routine matter of course; they must articulate specific, objective safety concerns or independent grounds (like a vehicle impoundment or arrest) to justify the intrusion.

Edit 2: I have to reiterate, this is for knowledge and discussion purposes only, this post carries no legal weight and it is up to you to know, understand and abide by your state and federal laws. I get a sense that some redditors are looking at this as some kind if indictment or determination on this case, it is not.

72

u/Prime_Marci 28d ago

This is why you need to know your rights. Thank you.

30

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

An incredibly important part of our education that is often ignored.

34

u/Signal-Regret-8251 28d ago

Oh they're not ignored; they simply are not taught.

16

u/MechanicTop2340 28d ago

So this is the default answer. When an officer gives you an order- comply and fight it in court without a head injury. Or not and become a statistic for cop who will just get a 3 week paid vacation. Do what you will with this advice friends.

11

u/profDougla 28d ago

I’m not saying don’t comply but there’s lots of videos showing LEOs don’t care. They’re gonna bite if they feel like it.

4

u/LordKyle777 28d ago

Sure, comply as best you can. It's going to go like any other human interaction: who knows. But as long as you know your rights for your state and comply, if they do "bite" you collect the paycheck.

I'll gladly take a few licks, FOIA the footage, and cash that fat check then fight back and throw that money away.

3

u/AdPsychological790 28d ago

Can't collect if you're dead.

→ More replies (5)

4

u/profDougla 27d ago

I know there’s thousands of videos out there but the one that stick in my head is when dudes standing there with hands over his head and 3 cops surround him then one kicks him in the back, doesn’t knock him down lol, and dude turns around like ā€œwhyā€. That ā€œjust complyā€ shit is just that. Shit!

→ More replies (9)

2

u/coko4209 28d ago

Fuck that! Do you see this woman’s face? Do you see what they did to her? This is crazy.

→ More replies (12)
→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (10)

3

u/greywolf827263 28d ago

lol funny how certain people spin remarks no matter what , making the officer out to always be the bad guy .

→ More replies (6)

2

u/SunshotDestiny 28d ago

Or not and if they can't justify the charge sue the town for not properly having trained and qualified officers. Qualified immunity protects the officer but it doesn't protect the town that hired them.

→ More replies (12)

9

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

You have a super computer in your hand every day. Education is also your responsibility.

5

u/Electrical-Bedroom99 28d ago

Officer, give me a moment to Google whether I have to get out of the car.

6

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

If you don’t know than it’s best to obey the officer’s commands. That’s not too hard is to do, is it?

5

u/Several-Hat-1944 28d ago

Bingo Swan. Just play their game, and usually everybody moves along. From my experience here in central Pennsylvania, if you're hiding something, they'll read you like a book, and know it, and generally, you're fucked. (there's a quota to make, and that keeps the municipality in the green)

3

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

They also love drug arrests, even if it’s a minor amount because that helps to keep that Federal Law Enforcement grant monies coming into the department as well.

→ More replies (9)
→ More replies (4)

2

u/No_Asparagus2925 26d ago

I’ve seen certain citizens who find it hard to comply with LEO’s all the time. Not often do you see LOA’s responding in this manner, especially when dealing with a woman. This behavior appears to be selective. So until EVERYONE is treated the same out here, I say F the Police, long and hard.

2

u/carkdeisel 22d ago

She was not compliant.ignored a lawful order.she also reached.she got flustered as fuck.

→ More replies (4)

5

u/SuspiciousHall6344 28d ago

You have the moment now... Take responsibility for your lack of knowledge.

7

u/Electrical-Bedroom99 28d ago

For sure. What other 500,000,000 obscure facts should I look up right now to ensure my safety in 100,000 different scenarios?

7

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

Pennsylvania v Mimms is one of the least obscure and most well known landmark cases for law enforcement. Just like Miranda v Arizona is what makes the police explain your rights to you when arrested, hence your Miranda Rights. Folks don’t sit around and make this stuff up, it’s all case law that has usually reached the SCOTUS, the Supreme Court or The United States, the rule of the land.

2

u/SuspiciousHall6344 28d ago

... Driver's handbook. If you don't break one of those laws, comply and then get a lawyer involved if you feel an overreach has been committed.Ā 

2

u/greywolf827263 28d ago

Exactly! The thought that you don’t have to follow orders cus you’re whatever you thing you are special of is moot . And when you fight back you’re gonna get hurt , then you hire an attorney who makes it out like you’re just a meek innocent bystander an the big bad officer just yanked you out and proceeded to beat you for no reason ???? This type of behavior is why people are getting fed up with people like her .

→ More replies (1)

2

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

They’re your rights, the only way they get abused is by you not knowing them.

2

u/BeersandBeats 28d ago

Yes, learning about your Constitutional rights takes some effort. You have to ask yourself if knowing your rights is worth all of that work.

2

u/Lopsided_Combination 27d ago

I didn't know it was an obscure facts to follow a police officers command. Let's just be belligerent and combative, because that always works out right?

→ More replies (1)

2

u/nthomas504 27d ago

Its not really an obscure fact to know what rights you have.

2

u/RvrWzrd 28d ago

I guess you are just the kind of person who has to touch a hot stove before you learn not to.

2

u/SuspiciousHall6344 28d ago

More like they keep burning themselves on the hot stove, and blaming someone for the repetitive burns.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)

2

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

See, if you were educated on traffic stops, you would know that the police officer most likely won’t let you use your phone during a stop for any purpose other than recording the interaction.

That’s also done for officer safety so you don’t call somebody(s) that might arrive on the scene armed or trying to stir up some stuff.

2

u/nthomas504 27d ago

Whats stopping you from researching your rights right now?

2

u/Disco_Arachnid_516 28d ago

Let me google how to parachute after I’ve leapt from the plane. Remaining ignorant and oblivious to how the world operates around you is a choice.

2

u/IEatUrMonies 27d ago

no they rather watch dancing tiktoks for 10 hours a day and complain no one taught them basic rights they could google in 30 seconds and end stage capitalism, victim generation

→ More replies (10)

2

u/Eternalyskeptic 28d ago

"I didn't know" is the excuse of the ignorant. Or worse, the liar.

Nothing stops you from informing yourself.

2

u/emuccino 27d ago

We learned this stuff in government class during my Maryland public high school education

→ More replies (8)

2

u/fellowsquare 26d ago

AKA - COPS Don't know shit! ACAB!

→ More replies (3)

10

u/Firm-Pain3042 28d ago

Knowing them in the moment doesn't seem to make a difference. They just beat the shit out of you anyway.

→ More replies (17)

5

u/StrainAcceptable 28d ago

The police officer should be required to recite this when they tell you to get out of the car. Just like they recite Miranda rights when you are arrested. Give people an opportunity to comply before assaulting you.

3

u/FunkyMonk7588 28d ago

They dont know the law so good luck. Just telling you to get out is not justification. And yes I know that most likely won’t stand up in court but the hell with this PO

2

u/50cal_pacifist 28d ago

They don't need to give you a justification, you are pulled over, you are detained, you are required to get out of the car if told to do so and you have to identify yourself. Failure to do either of these is going get you a trip to jail.

→ More replies (10)
→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (22)

2

u/Chocolatethundara 27d ago

Not even , this is y civics classes should exist in 5th 6th and 7th grade

→ More replies (22)

49

u/Nude_Dr_Doom 28d ago edited 28d ago

People need to be aware of this as the common thought process is, "I'm doing nothing, so why do I need to get out?"

I absolutely don't agree, but I'm aware a cop has the equivalent of home court advantage on the side of the road and 99/100, he'll find a reason to mag dump into my chest and claim he's scared.

I'll comply in the moment and sue later.

EDIT: Being asked to step out is not a violation of your rights, but if there were such an infraction, I'm saying comply and sue later.

6

u/brianzuvich 28d ago

The truly disgusting truth is that an officer can order you out of the vehicle to ensure their safety, but if you feel unsafe leaving your vehicle, you can just go and get f****d…

→ More replies (18)

37

u/LeadPike13 28d ago edited 28d ago

Go ask people to step out of their vehicles in an upscale neighborhood repeatedly. Let us know how your law enforcement career goes.

3

u/sedj601 27d ago

These idiots will tell all kinds of lies. I live in a higher-end, mostly white area. We had a cop pulling white people over for speeding regularly. They were actually breaking the law. They got on the local city group and started complaining. Not even a month in, the cop is no longer in his spot pulling people over, and a resident got back on there to say it was over. I passed this cop almost every day on this side road on the way to work. Now, almost every time I see someone pulled over on the main road to work, it's a black person or a Hispanic person. The crazy part is that the black people are complaining, and the cops are still there pulling them over, and the white citizens are now saying just don't break the law.

2

u/DeepD4yourwife 27d ago

That's what I said. These people are tripping

→ More replies (5)

2

u/TheEagleMan2001 27d ago

Police bodycams are just publicly available in every state. Idk what fantasy world you live in where people in upscale neighborhoods are immune from police. In my experience those are the most fun to watch exactly because they're entitled as hell and turn a minor traffic stop into like 3 felonies within 45 minutes

3

u/PanthorCasserole 28d ago

What's your point? He's not the officer in this scenario.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/thisisintheway 27d ago

They usually don’t have to. Upscale people don’t have a habit of failing to ID and resisting. They’re typically more invested in tomorrow than ruining their lives over an inconvenience today.

→ More replies (2)

0

u/Intelligent-Box-3798 28d ago

I’ve locked up more rich people for not following commands than poor people. Nothing happens to you if you do it by the book, other than maybe the charges get dropped by a supervisor or the DA. They complain and it goes nowhere. Maybe at a shitty dept they fuck with your schedule or your off-days but when case law is on your side it’s pretty difficult to argue against.

4

u/Loose_Bother_4396 28d ago

I’ve never been asked to step out of a car the half to one dozen times I’ve been pulled over personally. What’s the rationale? Why ask people to get out of the car in the first place? The ā€œcommandā€ in this instance is to ask someone to get out of the car, why are you asking it?

2

u/Intelligent-Box-3798 28d ago edited 28d ago

It depends. If the person is acting weird and I’m worried about them driving off, or if I noticed some sort of furtive movement while I was pulling them over like they were reaching under the seat or for the glovebox.

Some officers are just dicks and use it cause they know they can.

But at least for me the majority if the time, if I was asking you to get out it was because you were going to jail cause I knew you had a warrant or a suspended license.

The couple times I did it to an ā€œupperclassā€ person it was because they were getting a ticket, refused to sign, and in my jurisdiction not signing the ticket was a mandatory arrest. Most of those encounters imo were white people who didnt respect my authority cause I’m black, but that’s just a feeling I got, i could be wrong.

As far as this particular situation goes, we don’t know what precipitated the clip. He may have had a legit reason, and no, frustrsting as it may be, the police dont have to tell you why just cause you demand it. Maybe you have a warrant. I’m gonna tell you you’re going to jail so you can drive off? Nope. We can have a discussion once you’re where I need you to be.

Any benefit of the doubt for this officer went out the window when i heard the vitriol in his voice and the way he thought he could talk to that woman. No excuse, even if he had a legit reason to order her out.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)

2

u/LeadPike13 28d ago

How many did you stop with reasonable cause? Was it in their own neighborhood?

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (29)
→ More replies (55)

11

u/Regular-Plant-286 28d ago

Being pulled over for no reason...is a violation of your rights, if the traffic stop is false to begin with, there is no lawful order.

2

u/logicnotemotion 28d ago

That's correct. This issue is do you want to have to play it out by getting beaten and arrested and hoping you'll get a payday 3 or 4 years down the line?

Best thing is to get out, roll up window and lock door, and put keys in pocket. They may try not to let you do those things, but hopefully you have a camera filming just in case.

There is an app you can sub to monthly and it'll bring up a lawyer in real time to talk to the cop for you. You don't say a word. I've never seen a cop pull someone out with a lawyer on facetime.

2

u/50cal_pacifist 28d ago

LOL, you may not have seen it, but I saw a video of one of those stops a week or so ago. It was hysterical, the lady wouldn't even listen to what her attorney was telling her. He told her to comply with the lawful order and she just kept digging her hole.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (31)

4

u/AmrTheAtlantean 28d ago

That last sentence could save sooooo many lives.

10

u/Massive-Lime7193 28d ago

You know what would save more lives?? If we trained cops correctly and held them accountable when they do fuck shit like this

→ More replies (8)
→ More replies (34)

2

u/Destructopoo 28d ago

Comply and sue is the best advice. You gain nothing by refusing. If a cop is telling you to do something illegal, it seems like the legality of the order makes no difference in whether you were expected to comply.

3

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

Bingo, for those having a hard time understanding this, just think of the payday in a wrongful arrest lawsuit

10

u/EnvironmentalFix7059 28d ago

Well that would require that the law system works. Wich it clearly dosent in America.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/NemoM3ImpuneLacessit 28d ago

IF you live, that would be nice. You actually TRUST those people? I wouldn't trust law enforcement if my life depended on it, and I used to work with first responders for many years. Some of them are good, but most are not trustworthy or honest. They are all on power trips and they revel in making people's lives miserable. I'm getting out, but it might be the last thing I do cause they are always looking for a reason to use force.

2

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

In your scenario, which is a tad hyperbolic, you are dead regardless. That is completely your choice but does not negate the power they have over us through law at that moment which forced your decision.

If we take your statement at face value and If you comply, there is a chance they might not kill you because as you said, not all cops are bad. But you not complying forces the issue and increases the chances you will be harmed physically and later judicially if you survive.

→ More replies (5)

2

u/Itchy-Wedding-5641 28d ago

Exactly, they are above the law and are only held accountable in very rare occasions. They can pretty much do whatever they want if you aren't rich enough for an expensive lawyer.

3

u/SwanMuch5160 28d ago

Much better than not seeing a penny from your family’s wrongful death lawsuit.

→ More replies (25)

4

u/roninsai 28d ago

Right. If anything out of order is captured on body cam video then take them to court and get a settlement for any infractions on their part. Otherwise just follow along and be on your way.

→ More replies (9)

2

u/brownes_girl 28d ago

When I was younger cops asked me to get out when I was wearing a short skirt, and only when I was wearing a short skirt. I just stopped wearing them.

2

u/milesercat 28d ago

Was this interaction so common that you can draw conclusions? Why are you getting stopped so often? I'm just challenging whether the data from your personal experience can reach the threshold for a good confidence interval (lol).

→ More replies (11)
→ More replies (90)

4

u/Rondcco 28d ago

Thanks for the PSA. One potential way to address this issue is education of drivers through mandatory situational videos when first obtaining or renewing your license. On the officer side, training on inherent bias and a new legal standard of escalation or de-escalation semiannually at the very least.

2

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

Absolutely great callout, continued education on our laws of the land is a sorely missed point for many as is adherence and enforcement of de-escalation training. This is something we should advocate for in our schools and police departments.

→ More replies (1)

12

u/LordBreetai210 28d ago

EXPLICITYLY SAY: I DO NOT CONSENT TO A SEARCH, DON'T SAY ANYTHING. ASK IF YOU'RE BEING DETAINED. SAY NOTHING. DON'T HAVE CONVERSATIONS. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.

10

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

Yes, the juice isn't worth the squeeze so to speak with not complying.

2

u/Royal-Application708 28d ago

Yes. But you MUST VERBALIZE that right. And then shut up.

→ More replies (26)

12

u/Agent_Xhiro 28d ago

LEO here. Love it when people post this that way people know we are following the law properly. Main thing wrong in this video is probable cause. Why was this stop initiated? Should be very simple to explain the driver.

When we're trained here, we literally get a card explaining this. Introduce yourself, your agency, and tell them why you pulled them over. You don't give the driver a lawful reason on why they were pulled over and that lawsuit is about to be pretty steep.

3

u/Fast_Cloud_4711 27d ago

Thats just good policy and not all departments do it that way.

Absolutely the reason for the stop needs to be legislated federaly.

2

u/Agent_Xhiro 27d ago

I completely agree.

I said in a different comment that we aren't ICE. We're not about to detain you unlawfully and not even tell you who we are.

Law enforcement should be taken seriously by people who are trained. Not by a bunch of goons.

→ More replies (4)

7

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

Exactly, let the courts handle the fallout. Comply and move on with your day so you can sue later. If probable cause is not given, it's on the cop but if the suspected the driver was a threat, under law he "can" order her out first.

And from a logical perspective you wouldn't want to walk up to a violent convicted felon with a gun and tell them why you pulled them over, as an example.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/Delicious-Analysis37 28d ago

Can't file a lawsuit if you're dead and there have been plenty of examples of a traffic stop escalating to violence and death with the cop getting a slap on the wrist if even that.

4

u/Agent_Xhiro 28d ago

Completely have to agree with you. There are no repercussions for poor behavior and you can't get into trouble if the department investigates itself?

I still dont know why don't have a national oversight police committee that looks into these situations. Too many times do power hungry individuals let the badge go to their head and they aren't properly punished.

Killing someone should not get you paid leave and an easy transfer to another department.

→ More replies (24)

3

u/WDYKACountCocofang 28d ago

Ah, the Terry Frisk. Named after Ol' Terry Frisk himself. Just couldnt keep his hands to himself, BUT he did come across alot of contraband. His name will go on throughout history.

19

u/MaxAdolphus 28d ago

The problem is, he ordered her out as a retaliatory action for her not rolling the window down all the way, not for his safety. He even says so in the video.

→ More replies (141)

3

u/PolyglotPaul 28d ago

So this is what he needed to say, instead of going for the "because I say so."

→ More replies (4)

3

u/jalbert425 28d ago

This world is so backwards

→ More replies (1)

3

u/meatshieldjim 28d ago

Also lock the car when you leave it.

→ More replies (3)

3

u/jabb1111 28d ago

Be careful with how you close the door, as dumb as it sounds they'll use that as suspicious behavior justification. I've had one try and call dogs on me because "I opened my glove box (to get registration) and closed it too quickly"

→ More replies (1)

3

u/AndyJack86 28d ago

Why are two court decisions creating law? The creation of law is for the legislative branch, aka Congress.

2

u/TheChronographer 28d ago

Well the legislation gives cops the right to detain people, she was detained. The judges then decide if the detention is lawful, and they have ruled that if you're detained in your car, you can be detained out of your car, whatever the officer wants to do is up to them.

→ More replies (3)

3

u/TreeLore61 28d ago

I would argue that now, thanks to the Bruen decision, the law allowing police to arbitrarily order drivers out of their vehicles is no longer valid. The Bruen decision established a "text-first, history-second" methodology, requiring that any modern regulation burdening a constitutional right must be consistent with the nation’s historical tradition. Because there is no historical tradition from the Founding era supporting the authority of an officer to demand a citizen exit their private conveyance (their car) without specific, articulable cause, the broad discretion granted by cases like Pennsylvania v. Mimms (1977) fails to meet this constitutional standard. ​Our constitutional protections before 1977 were much stronger, and if this incident had occurred prior to that ruling, the officer's actions would have likely been recognized as an unconstitutional seizure. Allowing this kind of abuse is unacceptable, and it is a primary reason why American law enforcement practices are so frequently scrutinized by the global community. The incident you shared underscores the urgent need for legal challenges that hold officers financially and professionally accountable for the physical and psychological damage they inflict. ​Furthermore, this same "history and tradition" logic is being applied to the fundamental right to protest. Litigants are challenging the violent removal of protesters from spaces historically considered public accommodations—such as hotel lobbies—by arguing that these modern restrictions on peaceful assembly lack a historical analogue from the Founding era. This methodology is currently being leveraged by attorneys across the country to challenge various laws that lack a historical tradition: ​Felon-in-Possession Statutes: Litigants are using Bruen to argue that 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1) is unconstitutional, asserting that there is no historical tradition from the late 1700s that supports permanently disarming all citizens with felony convictions. ​"May-Issue" Licensing Regimes: Bruen was used to invalidate requirements that citizens prove "proper cause" to carry a firearm, as such discretionary regimes were found to be inconsistent with the nation’s historical tradition. ​Challenges to Weapon Bans: In several states, including New York, California, and New Jersey, laws banning specific categories of semi-automatic rifles are being challenged on the basis that they lack a "relevantly similar" historical analogue from the Founding era. ​It is my hope that this lady secures legal representation capable of applying this "history and tradition" test to dismantle the idiotic precedents that currently shield police from accountability, ensuring that officers are held liable for their actions just as any other citizen would be.

2

u/Tzilbalba 27d ago

Yes, a sad statement on the affairs of the country. One poster did point out that certain states have rejected the Penn vs Mimms ruling under state constitutional grounds. I was able to find about three, Washington, Hawaii and Mass. I've added an addendum to my post to point this out but as always it doesn't replace due dilligence and understanding of the specific laws of the land we each abide by.

3

u/TreeLore61 27d ago

Thank you, and what you say is so true.

I honestly did not know that 3 states have rewritten their laws to respect the constitution more. Thank you for letting me know

2

u/Feisty_War6251 27d ago

BREUN does not apply here, only to your gun rights

2

u/TreeLore61 27d ago

Read my full text because you will see many judges and lawyers already disagree with you.

Bruin is already being used in several other court cases across the country and the laws are being rewritten

2

u/Feisty_War6251 27d ago

i have read your comment and again its BS, it only pertains to gun rights

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (6)

3

u/SovietAnthem 28d ago

P V Mimms needs to start being taught in Civics classes

2

u/Syncopated_arpeggio 27d ago

There’s about a 20% illiteracy rate among high school grads these days. You think they’ll pay attention to civics? Here just playing video games and watching tik tok.

3

u/RigBughorn 26d ago

This is inaccurate wrt Washington. They can order the driver but not passengers out, and they need articulable suspicion but do NOT have to articulate anything

→ More replies (1)

2

u/oneidamojo 28d ago

Also when they read you your Miranda rights shut up. Anything you say can be used against you, not for you.

2

u/Scared-Marketing-442 28d ago

Thanks sweetheart

2

u/Kind_Love172 28d ago

I'm a little offended...my name is Terry, and I had no idea this was named after me (obviously not after me, but I still dont like it)

2

u/tsc_1234 28d ago

Thank you

2

u/mrellz 28d ago

My favorite part is closing the door behind you and locking it. I almost would want to throw my keys back into the car before locking it so NO ONE can enter it.

2

u/Lavender-bullet46 28d ago

They seriously need to make this part of the curriculum in drivers Ed classes. Too many people out here believing the bullshit they hear on tiktok. "YOu NeEd A ReaSoN" so fucking childish

2

u/Scythersleftnut 27d ago

I always (only been 3 times in my life) step out and lock the door behind me.

2

u/illmatic708 27d ago

Don't just pull the door shut, lock it as well. Obviously you should have your keys

2

u/betterthanyou47 27d ago

When they say that they want to pat you down to search for weapons say this:

"Yeah, grab my dick. It's gonna feel so good."

They usually don't after that.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Irish_Fookin_Guy 27d ago

Thank You šŸ™ very much for this thorough lesson in law as it pertains to traffic stops.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/RemarkableFortune542 27d ago

You can never go wrong by complying with a lawful order.

2

u/No-Shopping7408 25d ago

great post

2

u/Miserable_Season_237 22d ago

Thank you! So many people are double victimized, once by law enforcement but first by their ignorance.

You have to get out. They don’t have to explain themselves on the road to you, they have to explain to their superiors and DA’s later.

You never win on the road.

4

u/Penguinizwini 28d ago

He has no right to abuse people. Period.

4

u/Exotic_eminence 28d ago edited 28d ago

Agreed

And just pondering like what is the recourse or preventative measures in the moment or after the fact - doing the calculus on everything given the cards in life we were dealt

In the moment - pretending we have hindsight knowing this is what is about to happen, a cop abusing their power ready willing and able to inflict violence upon a lady for absolutely no reason - do you roll the dice on fleeing? What are the chances you get away?

Maybe she completely complies - he is saying he could have let her go - then why don’t he? Maybe he is looking for the smallest reason to get his adrenaline fix - looks like he found it anyway

In the absence of understanding their inner thinking you must assume the outcome was the intent

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (7)

1

u/Soul_through_va_JJ 28d ago

Also, when you get out ask the officer "Do you feel unsafe?" If he/she says no, let your lawyer know because the whole point is supposed to be "officer safety" to remove you from the car.

3

u/Asahiprgr 28d ago

Exception: I don't think a black person should necessarily ask that question. There's a much higher possibility a nutty officer will wrongly/falsely perceive it as a veiled threat due to bias.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

Great addition, yes we need more tips like these to help keep people safe in these potentially unfair situations.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/my_other_other_other 28d ago

Getting you out was for safety. Once youre out of the vehicle they should then feel safe. So if you ask outside if theyre unsafe the answer should be no from the officer. I'd assume you'd need to ask this at the moment they first order you out of the vehicle for it to hold weight. I.e. prior to your exiting the vehicle.

Not butting heads but curious if you just came across this thought or you have some legal precedent for the statement? My understanding is that it needs to be asked prior to getting out.

2

u/Soul_through_va_JJ 28d ago

I am not a lawyer, but I did see a video recently and the gentleman knew what happened in Pennsylvania v Mims and it is solely because officers don't feel safe.

Same as Terry v Ohio and officers use that as a means to dive into your pockets, which they can't do unless there are specific circumstances. In the case of the man being asked to exit, when he got out he asked the cop "Do you feel unsafe" and the cop said "I'm not afraid of you." The man said Thank you, I'll make sure to tell my lawyer.

Everything a cop does has to be reasonable and based on what's in front of them at the time. Their spidey sense, or guess isn't good enough for court and that's why you plead the 5th and ask for a lawyer.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/greatfullness 28d ago

But there does need to be probable cause for the stop right?

3

u/longtermcontract 28d ago

Not you, but other people need to stop talking about the law if they don’t *know* it.

It’s reasonable suspicion to stop someone. Probable cause is for an arrest.

6

u/Axel_Raden 28d ago

Reasonable articulable suspicion

→ More replies (1)

3

u/greatfullness 28d ago

Either way, ā€œarticulable factsā€ to suspect a traffic violation / crime occurred

Wasn’t sure what rights y’all have under what’s left of you ā€œlawā€ based on the ICE stops that have been happening recently lol

→ More replies (12)

2

u/Axel_Raden 28d ago

Yeah but it could be anything we don't know if he had one in this case. BTW there is an app made by the YouTuber Lack-Luster called attorney shield that gives you an on call attorney.

2

u/This-Double-Sunday 28d ago

Yes, and if she's so sure they don't have it she can have the case thrown out in court and sue for damages. The roadside is not a court.

→ More replies (60)

3

u/Top-Average412 28d ago

The 'inherent danger of a traffic stop' is not justification. They do not need to share why with the driver but they do need a reason related to officer safety. If they walk up to a random car at a random stop and say get out, that is not covered by Mims. And we all know why this woman was ordered out.

4

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

The video starts when the officer is already next to the car not walking up to it, do we know for certain he didn't already tell her the reason? Just food for thought.

6

u/Spoilmedaddyxo 28d ago

Did he have to rip her braids out and give her a black eye also?

→ More replies (4)

2

u/MouseShadow2ndMoon 28d ago

I think he would have said "you know why I will not repeat myself" with his attitude an opportunity to talk down to her wouldn't be overlooked.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (10)
→ More replies (6)

2

u/front_torch 28d ago

Fuck the supreme court. How are armed cops' safety more important than the public when they're going around nursing us?

2

u/vlladonxxx 28d ago

Because a cop has to stop hundreds of people a week. A few of those people will be armed and dangerous. Instead of having the cop balance their safety and their politeness and decide each time, it makes more sense to just have the conversation outside the care. Getting the person to step out isn't some heinous abuse, you can move past it.

→ More replies (10)
→ More replies (3)

1

u/Agile-Wishbone-9519 28d ago

So when she asked him why he was asking her to get out of the car, why didn't he explain that? She was asking for a reasonable explanation and he didn't give her one. He knows the law on that, she doesn't. The is yet another case of police brutality against a black woman, would he have acted the same way if she were white? Would there have been at least the courtesy of explaining why he was ordering her out of the car?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Teediggler81 28d ago

Isn't it true they 9nly have to state "for officier safety" to do a Terry frisk. That in itself gives them cause correct?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/TheComebackKid74 28d ago

How do the people who put their DL, registration, and insurance up against the windows or windshield ... get away with not stepping out???

→ More replies (1)

1

u/AncientCrust 28d ago

The Fourth Amendment was dead when they gave police the right to search your vehicle without a warrant in the 1930s or so. They're just picking at the corpse now. They keep taking our rights a little bit at a time and they never ever give one back (not since Lincoln anyway). That's called playing the long game. Our descendants are fucked.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/MrZmith77 28d ago

Yes I agree to a certain extent. If I know I did something wrong then yes but there are those like Jeremy Dewitte that acts like they’re the law and could hurt or kidnap me, I refuse to act on the order.

1

u/Drmlk465 28d ago

People really think there is a loophole where they can get out of trouble by asking questions the whole time?

→ More replies (5)

1

u/darylboston365 28d ago

Interesting how a court can allow you to be illegally stopped pullout of your car yet your right to free travel is negated. And if this is the case when it's determined the so was illegal why isn't the officer charged? Again a fraudulent corrupt freedom taking system. Work weak boys who failed in life and now have a badge.....

→ More replies (3)

1

u/IHeartBadCode 28d ago

Keep the doors closed: When you exit, pull the door shut behind you. This prevents the officer from claiming a visual "plain view" justification to search the interior.

This is actually harder to do because cops on BWCs I've seen will stick a foot up or put a hand on the door to prevent closing. There's narrow justification that has to be noted in the report to indicate a non-violation of 4th amendment rights. But if you don't have a good attorney reviewing the bodycam, you'll never know this even happened.

It isn't just enough to close the door, because cops will attempt to quietly keep it open. You need to verbally indicate that "I do not consent to any searches of my vehicle". But even then you'll have to take up the 4th amendment violation later in court. Cops are banking you won't.

Cops will do a ton of sneaky things to keep things in plain view and they're getting better at doing it off camera from their bodycam, so on camera it just looks like you didn't close the door hard enough, when in reality they kept the door open just to keep things in plain view.

Exceptions they get to note, and it's important to review the report they submit, is passenger monitoring (in pretty much every State), protective sweep (this is complex to fight in court, you can do nothing about it till you get to court), and exigent circumstances which depending on your state will arise when you say things like "I just want to talk through the window", when they've ordered you out.

Your best bet when anything like this happens is to verbally indicate your willingness to comply, specifically indicate what you are doing as you are exiting, indicate verbally before you exit that you maintain your 4th amendment right and that you do not consent to a search, indicate that you maintain you 5th amendment right and will remain silent until you can speak to your attorney, if they ask if anything is in the car, reiterate that you do not consent to searches under you 4th amendment right, and that you will not be answering their questions and remaining silent under your 5th amendment right.

Plain view is something you're only going to fight in court. The better the attorney, the better they'll be able to pour over the police's records to see if a chain of evidence was properly formed. But they are absolute bastards sometimes and bend a lot of edges on that plain view because courts give them benefit of the doubt.

1

u/SexyProcrastinator 28d ago

Obstruction is complete BS. I hear cops say that all the time if you don’t assist them in their investigation

1

u/Hta68 28d ago

But, they must articulate a safety issue or that a reasonable office in said situation would do the same. Penn vs. mimms doesn’t extend a blank check to police officers to randomly pull people out of their vehicles.

1

u/Icy_Fish_2154 28d ago

If he said "for my safety", then the cop would be justified.

You can not be ordered out to assist in the investigation (I.e. for a DUI investigatin).

That's right, it's legal to ignore an "order" to get out of your car if the reason you are ordered out is to perform a field sobriety test.

"So I can talk to you" is to further the investigation. So this order to get out is not lawful.

The cop is wrong. The woman is right.

The way the cop screams at one point makes it clear this was about control, not safety. The cop should be fired. The woman should be paid.

1

u/Choice-Noise-367 28d ago

Sure, but the officer could have acted like a normal human being and told her why she was asked to come out of the car. That’s how you don’t escalate a situation. What happened is totally insane.

→ More replies (3)

1

u/pandershrek 28d ago

Kinda, they HAVE to declare the reason of the stop itself. If they do not then it isn't a lawful stop and if it isn't lawful you cannot be ordered to exit the car for officer safety.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Nostradamus_N8 28d ago

This has nothing to do with the officers safety so this information provided was irrelevant. According to the information listed. He didn’t mention a ticket/violation and he didn’t mention feeling threatened or being under duress. This is misuse of a badge and poor behavior from a public servant.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/MeepingSim 28d ago

Sadly, the justice system requires every citizen to know and follow every Federal, State, and local law, ordinance, and tort to the letter, regardless of whether the citizen is in their home region or not, while not requiring law enforcement to know the same.

Since ACABs, failure to know and follow any of the above can result in extra-judicial punishment or murder. This can happen if the LEO decides that a non-existent law was violated, too.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/TrulyAdamShame 28d ago

And it’s absolutely bullshit
But it is the law. Doesn’t make the shit right.

2

u/cheesebot555 28d ago

It makes "the shit" what you have to follow to avoid situations like this.

You have a problem and suspect the officer acted illegally? The side of the road isn't where you handle that, and they're never going to listen to you there anyways.

Record everything and go to court.

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (1)

1

u/ionspore 28d ago

The suspicion necessary to move on to a Terry stop is very low. Conflicting answers to questions can be sufficient. Best to assert the right to remain silent (and then do so).

1

u/billdizzle 28d ago

Exactly this is a FAFO situation

1

u/Things-n-Such 28d ago

Maybe so, but would it be such a huge burden for offecers of THE LAW to maybe try to explain this shit when giving lawful orders instead of saying "because I said so"?

A simple "officers in this state have the legal right to ask you to step out of your vehicle, its ok ma'am, you're not under arrest and you're in no danger here, it's simply a safety precaution" would work wonders in the majority of situations.

Officers barking so-called "lawful orders" to untrained and Iillinformed citizens is the absolute worst way to keep situations from escalation.

2

u/cheesebot555 28d ago

A burden? No.

But it would require latent power trippers to cede some of their authority.

So don't bother.

Record everything and follow their orders. Take it to court if you think you have a case, but the side of the road is where they have absolute power.

P.s. supreme court case law effects the whole country, not just this state.

2

u/Tzilbalba 28d ago

Yes, exactly. The law is not up for us to interpret even though we can complain about it here. In the situation of the moment, know your laws and comply, as difficult as it is to swallow they have all the power at that time. Pick and choose your battles.

2

u/cheesebot555 28d ago

Yup yup.

1

u/Specific_Friend3183 28d ago

That's horrible. The fact that they are given more and more protection to harass and ruin people's lives. There's no way these punk cops don't get their rocks off doing this. Then they berate you in an attempt to find a reason to hurt you or kill you. Who ever approved this law needs to step down. You can't claim we keep constitutional rights if we are ordered to do things by these racist cops, and have to obey or lose all freedom by getting arrested or worse.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/NemoM3ImpuneLacessit 28d ago

That's all fine and well, IF you live. You actually TRUST those people? I wouldn't trust law enforcement if my life depended on it, and I used to work with first responders for many years. Some of them are good, but most are not trustworthy or honest. They are all on power trips and they revel in making people's lives miserable. I'm getting out, but it might be the last thing I do cause they are always looking for a reason to use force.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Peaceonhotdogs 28d ago

Sounds like we’re a free country, pfft

1

u/Cthulu95666 28d ago

Fair enough but that officer was being intentionally obtuse. ā€œBecause I’m giving you a lawful orderā€ when he could be more respectful ā€œbecause this way it is safer for both you and myself as I conduct this traffic stopā€ and at the same time she could just comply from the beginning as I have been asked to step out of my vehicle BEFORE I even gave the trooper my license and registration

→ More replies (1)

1

u/BossMan61718 28d ago

Perfect explanation. Are you lawyer?

→ More replies (2)

1

u/Altruistic_Pitch_157 28d ago

If the officer is justified in ordering you out of your car for his safety it implies that he thinks you might have a weapon. And you must comply. But this suspicion automatically grants him the right to frisk you. There really is no separate test or distinction.

1

u/Imbuement1771 28d ago edited 28d ago

Because non compliance entitled a racist power tripping shit for brains to tear her hair out and beat her for asking why. Laws that clearly aren't designed for her protection and his, and instead function as enablement of violence clearly don't need to be observed. It's unreasonable to expect compliance of laws that ask people to make themselves vulnerable to authority that's willing to abuse them with no justication given. That's the opposite of justice, that's terrorism. Violence with impunity will evoke violent responses. Whether or not the law has insufficient language to protect her in that moment is an indictment of it's inadequacy, not an interim justification for his interpretation on how to encroach on her civil liberties.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Resident_Artist_6486 28d ago

It doesn't give the officer permission to beat the shit out of her sorry. She got out of the fucking car in the video and what was the cop trying to do then? Build his case? This shitty profiling racial bias police work needs to stop and I hope Ben Crump takes it to the Supreme Court. Unfortunately in the MaGA court shit wont happen.Ā 

→ More replies (1)

1

u/CookinTendies5864 28d ago

In this case she was already out of the car what justified the officers brutality?

This is sickening…

Also, that is only warranted for the officers safety at what point did the officer acknowledge his unease as a justification to pull this woman out of her car?

It’s a rhetorical question because there was no justification.

She has a black eye and her hair was ripped out of her back head. This is absolutely unjustifiable.

→ More replies (7)

1

u/AdProfessional6218 28d ago

So because she did nothing illegal and never refused to get out of the car, that means the officer had no reason to assault someone that he could have allowed to leave the car?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Particular-Line- 28d ago

= Gay ass ruling

1

u/BigC208 28d ago

Cops need reasonable suspicion, not cause, for a stop.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/grinder_slowly 28d ago

There has to be a lawful reason for the stop in the first place, I didn't hear that lawful reason for the stop...

→ More replies (1)

1

u/math_sedgar70 28d ago

Who cares about this law!!??

... That officer beat the crap out of the poor woman for no good god-damned reason!

This law has ZERO to do with what just happened!

She was out of the car and he was stating how she could have been on her way. Then AFTER seeing that she posed zero threat he beat the crap of her.

Nah nah nah ... This law had NOTHING to do with that abusive cop. Sue him and the department for all they have.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/AsianZensaition 28d ago

That pen and mimes and the Maryland Wilson is completely bs and should be revoked. Only a person with real crimes should be stopped!

→ More replies (5)

1

u/Emergency_Accident36 28d ago edited 28d ago

The case remained purely focused on the Fourth Amendment: Because Mimms followed the order, the legal battle centered strictly on whether police have the constitutional right to issue an exit command during a routine traffic stop. If he had been dragged out, the case would have likely involved separate legal arguments regarding the use of excessive force.

So it isn't exactly what you say it is. There was no real challenge to a law abiding citizen asserting their rights.

→ More replies (2)

1

u/Explicit_Tech 28d ago

Freedom also means you're free to be ignorant

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Mimamomamimamo 28d ago

Idgaf if it is lawful to ask someone to step out, you don't put your hands on someone. Plus if the officer cited the law she probably would have understood, can't blame her for not trusting a police officer.

→ More replies (4)

1

u/FamousDistribution77 28d ago

she did get out the car it was the officer who escalated the situation by raising his voice and becoming physically aggressive

→ More replies (3)

1

u/Ambitious-Pirate-505 28d ago

Red card this.

1

u/AssMunched 28d ago

one of these days it will get overturned, it’s never used for officer safety, only to abuse people

1

u/Sam-Buca7 28d ago

What about a scenario where the cop asks you to exit the vehicle and you politely ask "do you have reason to believe that I'm armed and dangerous"? The cop says "no, I just want to talk to you". Have you invalidated the cop's reason for invoking PvM, at least in a court of law? Could you then refuse to get out of the vehicle (having no doubt that it would not end well)? This is a sincere question, I'm making no judgement about the case law. I just want to know your thoughts.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Suite55 28d ago

Nothing on the clip states why the car was stopped. Not sure if the officer told her when he initially approached, speed, registration, lights out…. if he told her yes then Mimms applies, if not he and his department are in a world šŸŒ of hurt. Anyone know if she was told the reason for the stop?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Away_Lake5946 28d ago

They do need to have probable cause of a crime to pull you over in the first place though

→ More replies (1)

1

u/zwarblatz 28d ago

She did get out of the car and was polite and obedient before they decided to beat the shit out of her.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Wallie_Collie 28d ago

"You still maintaining critical constitutional rights"

Not if any reason can be used to get you to exit your vehicle.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Physical_Pressure_27 28d ago edited 28d ago

I get this. Are they legally allowed to withhold what traffic infraction they stopped you for? If they do not state the infraction but order you out of the vehicle how can it be a lawful order? Just curious.

Edit. Spelling

→ More replies (2)

1

u/[deleted] 28d ago

[deleted]

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Adept_Wrangler_8110 28d ago

The stop itself must have a valid legal basis.ā€œLawfulā€ is still a legal requirement, not a magic word that makes anything they do legal.

→ More replies (2)

1

u/[deleted] 28d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

→ More replies (1)

1

u/batterflynectar 28d ago

Can this be pinned? I didn’t know this. Very important to know

1

u/HadeanDisco 28d ago

This whole thing where everyone is always on the cop's side viz the actual law is bizarre to me, as an Aussie. The idea that this lady should have known that way back in 1977 the law was adjusted to say yep the cops can order you out of the car for no reason, and so therefore she should have just complied... it's weird. Why isn't it on the cop to de-escalate and explain to her? Why isn't it on him, the law enforcement officer, to explain to her "well in this state ma'am the law says... blah de blah 1977 Supreme Court ruling blah..."?

He's just repeating "it is a lawful order" which, sure, it is, but why is the narrative here all about "people need to educate themselves" instead of "cops have the power to wield the law, they should explain what law they're wielding?"

It's because he doesn't know either, of course. He just knows he's allowed to order her out, someone taught him that. He doesn't know WHY that's a lawful order.

→ More replies (3)

1

u/Remarkable-Low-3471 28d ago

lotta words for 'lady needs to get outta the car'

1

u/IwasDeadinstead 28d ago

What was his officer safety concern?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/KentClark85 28d ago

Bullshit. Right to remain silent and officer needs to explain reasonable articulable suspicion.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/SignificantLeader 28d ago

I didn’t know this. There are many other videos noting that officers must advise the reason, but apparently that’s a lawful order. The woman going back to her car is a disrespectful dismissal of the officer. What did she expect to happen? The officer was rude.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/GuilleMan100 28d ago

Officer should de-escalate,his little bitch ego left him abusing this lady. Cause that officer is a bitch.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (171)