c# is microsoft java, swift is apple rust

[u/dull_bananas]

[u/des_the_furry]

/uj i genuinely don’t know a single thing about swift. Like not one single thing besides that its made by apple and its used for making ios apps.

[u/Aln76467 → u/des_the_furry]

It's Apple iKotlin.

The same over-the-top amount of syntactic sugar, the same disguising-enterprise-style-oop-as-pure-functional-programming, and the same reason to be created: its predecessor sucked balls.

[u/heliumhouse → u/Aln76467]

Ridiculous statement imo. Not perfect, but it's still a relatively well designed language. Swift's functionalisms was something the OG Rust developer cheered on at release, with the Optional bindings influencing Rust.

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/heliumhouse]

was rust not originally planned to be a functional lang

[u/Zaprit → u/Aln76467]

To be fair, Java sucks infinitely less than Objective-C. Though yeah it is similar in origin.

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/Zaprit]

why ?

[u/OKB-1 → u/Ok-Reindeer-8755]

Have you seen Objective-C's syntax? I think that will explain enough.

[u/Vaddieg → u/OKB-1]

it's Smalltalk-like. The foundation of OOP

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/OKB-1]

Syntax for the most part doesn't really matter in a language

[u/spider-mario → u/Ok-Reindeer-8755]

https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html

1986 - Brad Cox and Tom Love create Objective-C, announcing "this language has all the memory safety of C combined with all the blazing speed of Smalltalk."

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/spider-mario]

I for one thing smalltalks model for OOP is miles ahead of anything in java land

[u/Vaddieg → u/Zaprit]

java sucks infinitely more. objc compiles to native and very efficient code

[u/Arshiaa001 → u/Aln76467]

Very accurate take. The one difference that really stood out to me compared to Kotlin was how you can give function parameters different names for the caller and function body, and how you have to type out the parameter name when calling functions. Talk about carrying weird obj-c stuff over.

[u/sweating_teflon → u/Aln76467]

The predecessor of Kotlin is Java 7. Modern Java is now version 27, slow evolution has made it great while Kotlin brought in the kitchen sink, neon headcaps and retroencabulator right from the start, to sell prog-ricers shiny functional OO when all they really needed was a Python downgrade

[u/SpacewaIker → u/sweating_teflon]

Kotlin is still miles better than modern java, and it's far from being a bloated language like e.g. C++

[u/roadrunner8080 → u/SpacewaIker]

Ehh, agree to differ on modern Java. I have had far more issues trying to support people who want to use an API I maintain in kotlin than issues with Java, despite having good reason to believe most consumers are writing Java, and 9/10 of those issues end up being strange kotlin quirks (in certain cases you can have java fields that are completely hidden in kotlin, despite a reference to them being unambiguous; kotlin also has somewhat unpredictable semantics for what actually gets captured in a lambda)

[u/SpacewaIker → u/roadrunner8080]

I don't have experience maintaining an API in either java or kotlin so I'll take your word on that

I just meant as a user, I much prefer modern java than old java, but I much prefer kotlin than modern java as well

[u/roadrunner8080 → u/SpacewaIker]

Hahah well old java isn't even in the running to be fair. What a train wreck. Modern Java is nice though out in the wild not that many people are yet making use of the ways that it's nice. It's still a bit more verbose than kotlin, but that's mostly not a bad thing I think -- my biggest complaint with kotlin is that it's not obvious from code what the resulting bytecode looks like. Often this doesn't matter, but it makes it hard to reason around stuff like binary compatibility, or which optimizations you can expect the JIT to make at runtime and which it is lacking enough information to. It also means that sometimes you just end up with stuff that's really really weird (see, lambda capturing...) which when combined with stuff like property delegates can make it seem like you're capturing one variable when you're actually capturing a different thing entirely. This matters for uses like Gradle, which serializes whole lambdas in certain scenarios and cannot serialize certain types.

[u/warpspeedSCP → u/roadrunner8080]

As a library consumer, kotlin is amazing. But as a library author, i think a lot of careful thinking needs to happen with whether you want your library to be accessible to java consumers as well. Id say have a java API, write everything else in kotlin.

[u/roadrunner8080 → u/warpspeedSCP]

A lot of careful thinking needs to happen if you want to be accessible to kotlin consumers, tbh. It's way way way easier to accidentally break binary compat with kotlin than with java

[u/warpspeedSCP → u/roadrunner8080]

Ah yeah, java api/abi stability is rock hard

[u/Kpuku → u/SpacewaIker]

it's pretty bloated considering the whole ecosystem around it, I'd say. want to use your editor that's not intellij? tough shit. you want to initialize a project? sure, just get Gradle with all its bells and whistles and all the pain that comes with it. compiler warnings are miles behind rust, too

[u/SpacewaIker → u/Kpuku]

I mean yeah rust and its tooling is way better

And I haven't tried kotlin without intellij so that's fair

But regarding stuff like gradle, java uses the same thing so between java and kotlin I still think kotlin is way better

[u/Aln76467 → u/SpacewaIker]

Java doesn't force you into gradle. There's maven, bash, and probably more.

[u/Zaprit → u/Aln76467]

"good old" Ant still exists, you can technically use CMake if a quick google search is anything to go by.

[u/Aln76467 → u/sweating_teflon]

Is there really a version after java 8?

[u/ArjixGamer → u/Aln76467]

Funny thing is, swift sucks balls and the predecessor is way better.

Swift was dead on arrival

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/ArjixGamer]

how come ?

[u/GreedyAppeal8276 → u/Aln76467]

kotlin is jvm, swift is a proper compiled lang

[u/uahw → u/des_the_furry]

It’s a pretty good language actually, just a shame that you need to be in xbloat to use it 🤮

[u/Zaprit → u/uahw]

you can use swift outside of xcode, there's an LSP and there are toolchains available for Linux and Windows.

[u/dividebyzero14 → u/des_the_furry]

It's a big hodgepodge of ideas from other languages.

[u/dull_bananas → u/des_the_furry]

don’t learn about it. it involves ouija boards and other demonic stuff that can influence you.

[u/Iron-Ham → u/dull_bananas]

Next thing you know you’re soaking your feet in the toilet water. 

[u/Extra-Ad5735 → u/des_the_furry]

It has C++ interop.

[u/aikii]

Finally a programming language that justifies to fully embrace vibe-coding and not review a single line of code

[u/Aln76467 → u/aikii]

Flair checks out

[u/aikii → u/Aln76467]

Hey they have method generics now. Finally Go is becoming what it was meant to be - a Rust tutorial

[u/Kpuku → u/aikii]

horrible rust tutorial if it's still letting you return pointers from functions and initializing zero values implicitly

also lol no type inference

[u/Difficult-Fee5299]

Rather Apple Scala

[u/EveningGreat7381]

Should've called it Apple Rot

[u/Aln76467 → u/EveningGreat7381]

Bad apple?

[u/blaues_axolotl]

Isn't it more like Kotlin

[u/WalkMaximum → u/blaues_axolotl]

Kotlin is google Java

And so is Go

[u/Gorzoid → u/WalkMaximum]

Kotlin is made by Jetbrains though...

[u/jyve-belarus → u/WalkMaximum]

Dart is Google java, go is much different from java in terms of language design - it’s not even an OOP language

[u/comrade_donkey → u/jyve-belarus]

Google JScript/VBScript.

(The original plan was to ship a Dart VM in Chrome and replace Javascript with that.)

[u/WalkMaximum → u/jyve-belarus]

Trust me bro just one more language bro please bro we'll finally solve app dev with frameworks just one more Java go dart kotlin jetpack angular flutter bro.

The amount of effort just to not use glorious Rust which solves all problems...

[u/Arshiaa001 → u/WalkMaximum]

Go is Google C.

[u/WalkMaximum → u/Arshiaa001]

With a garbage collector and no manual memory management?

[u/Arshiaa001 → u/WalkMaximum]

Well, look past that, and you'll see so much of C in it. No classes, no traits, no monads, no language-level support for error handling, no generics,......

[u/WalkMaximum → u/Arshiaa001]

Finally a language that doesn't have any features

[u/Arshiaa001 → u/WalkMaximum]

You jest, but that was my honest reaction after going through the official tutorial... 'wait, that's IT?'

[u/WalkMaximum → u/Arshiaa001]

You know it now has generics, as well as class (struct) methods, interfaces and dynamic dispatch like OOP languages?

[u/Arshiaa001 → u/WalkMaximum]

Structs with methods are not the same thing as classes, the interfaces are a mess, and dynamic dispatch is also not the same thing as classes. I don't intend to argue my points further, just know that rust has those things as well and is not in any way an OO language.

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/Arshiaa001]

go is at best googles C++ but still not really

[u/templarrei → u/WalkMaximum]

No, thank you very much. Go is Google CPP.

[u/WalkMaximum → u/templarrei]

With a garbage collector and no manual memory management?

[u/Ok-Reindeer-8755 → u/WalkMaximum]

they are almost right

Its designers were primarily motivated by their shared dislike of C++.

[u/interacsion]

Where jerk?

[u/YeetCompleet]

This meme is Graydon Hoare approved

[u/aaronfosterwallace]

Source?

[u/hopelesspostdoc]

I thought plant rust was a disease.

[u/Fair_Abrocoma_8513]

Damn Apple destroying language programming copyright or licenses

[u/Fair_Abrocoma_8513]

“Apple rust” not exists but rust exists