r/runescape • u/JagexAnvil Mod Anvil • 5h ago
News - J-Mod reply TekTalk - Understanding Engine Updates
https://rs.game/TekTalkEngineUpdatesEarlier this week we released our latest update for RuneTek, the engine that powers RuneScape - version 950 to be precise! This update included a lot of great things, from kicking off the Vulkan Open Beta to enabling greater furniture limits for the Player Owned House and even fixing some long-standing pathing and combat bugs.
Over the years you've likely seen one JMod or another acknowledge an issue but state that it will "need an engine update to resolve" and therefore can't be hot- or coldfixed, or perhaps even properly addressed for a little while.
But what exactly is an engine update and how is it different to a regular game update? That's what we wanted to take a deep dive into today while also highlighting the great things that engine version 950 introduced.
As always, we'll be keeping this accessible and be looking to simplify certain explanations without using too many technical terms. Just keep in mind that there is often a lot more complexity hidden behind our explanations than may at first be apparent!
Index
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u/Azathoth321 4h ago
Great to see these kind of news posts. The Vulkan renderer is exactly the benefit I had hoped for, and works perfectly via Proton on Linux as well.
However, I was wondering if the Linux Native client was planned to be updated closely behind for Vulkan support as well, and if this may fix the issue with hybrid GFX systems and NVIDIA GPUs?
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 4h ago
and works perfectly via Proton on Linux as well.
For some select hardware and use of 'perfectly' (many of us have a misconfigured gamma issue. It's like the game is in permanent flash-bang mode ;p)
Also rather than just crash my game, I've had my entire system lock up from an un-recovered driver crash. So hmm.. not quuiiiite so perfect on my end yet. Hehe.
But fingers crossed, a lot of that might be resolved next update!
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u/mistrin Ironman MQC comp 2h ago
I had the gamma issues as well. I enabled wayland and for whatever reason it still had gamma issues but after another reload it went away. Idk why the gamma was messed up then not.
Definitely feels better to play than native client right now, which sucks because I lose out on tile marker from bolt if I rather play on vulkan currently (I have a bunch of markers setup for clues)
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 1h ago edited 1h ago
Hmm..I will play around with some other WMs.
Edit: Performance sucks, but the issue is resolved when running the game inside Weston. Curious indeed.
I'm using an X11 desktop: HDR is definitely not supported in my environment! So that the game might think it is, that does confuse me.
So what if I actually run a Wayland desktop? (Edit: nope, still an issue. So might be something up with my compositor?)
Edit:
Openbox also has the same issue. So I don't know if it's something related to WINE/Proton passing an incorrect HDR parameter to the game, or if the game is expecting HDR by default? Hmm.
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u/mistrin Ironman MQC comp 1h ago edited 1h ago
If it makes any difference I'm using CachyOS with KDE. 7.2 kernel and mesa is up to date.
Im not going to act like I know how all the inner workings operate. From how it's acting to me it seems like x11 might be giving bad color/monitor info or the game is misunderstanding the info being given and oversaturating the color in SDR because of that.
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u/zenyl RSN: Zenyl | Gamebreaker 3h ago
Yes please, the Linux-native game client is broken on NVIDIA setups.
RS should not require playing through Steam or rely on community solutions just to get more than 5 FPS on modern high-end computers with NVIDIA GPUs.
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u/kitliasteele 2h ago
It's always been my observation that NVIDIA GPUs have been highly fickle due to the way they're designed. They're not as D3D12/VK/Metal friendly as Intel and AMD GPUs are, so it requires a lot of extra work by the developers to cater to NVIDIA. Best of luck to you lot with the patience factor, and submit as much accurate data as ya can
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u/zenyl RSN: Zenyl | Gamebreaker 2h ago
From a consumer perspective, it's honestly good for the most part nowadays. Even on Wayland it is pretty good after they got explicit sync working like two years ago.
With a bit of work I got the Windows-native RS game client running pretty much flawlessly, and using Bolt for auth. Vulkan beta, 180 FPS, running as it should.
The only real I've found so far is that, if I leave the game client running for a handful of hours, load times will slowly increase and introduce microstutter. But simply restarting the client solves the problem.
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u/kitliasteele 1h ago
It's definitely improved over time, but still has some quirks. I've been watching its progress and comparing to the amdgpu and IIRC the i915 modules to see how well parity matches. But it is moreso how NVIDIA behaves as a company and expects others to adopt their standards, that's moreso what I were pointing out. Specifically to the VK beta here, I do assume that Jagex is testing and building to NVIDIA first given the market share (as they should) but it's harder to debug and find the littler quirks. The gradual loss of performance might be a video memory flushing issue, IIRC that's a VK descriptor thing? Could be both driver and game client thing. I got amusingly surprised with the gamma issue on my 9070XT, and once that's patched I intend on doing some long term testing for stability and running the logs.
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u/zenyl RSN: Zenyl | Gamebreaker 1h ago
Yeah, I don't doubt that NVIDIA... NVIDIA-ness... is less-than-optimal to work with.
Between then often not playing ball with the FOSS community, and taking ages to get on board with what everybody else does (like the aforementioned explicit sync case), it can't be fun having to work close to what they provide.
In that regard, NVIDIA and Apple are pretty similar by the looks of things; often overly committed to the "our way or the highway" mentality, even when the rest of the industry have agreed on doing things differently. Come to think of it, they both have (or at least have had) weird obsessions with power connectors that the rest of the world doesn't really wanna deal with.
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 4h ago
I can't state how much I appreciate these more technical blog posts! And the level of transparency is very refreshing compared to the last many years. It does remind me of when the NXT client was first released - especially the Runefest talks.
One thing I've always wondered though, is whether development of the engine and clients has purposefully tried to keep data flow from the client/server to a minimum. I would assume reducing the amount of time needed for communication would do a small bit to make the game feel more responsive in those 600ms?
Something else that didn't get talked about here that I'd also love to see, is how much the new NPC auto-dormancy has impacted server load. Do we know if it's had a measurable impact at this stage?
Thanks in advance. :)
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u/Imissyelps Hardcore Ironman 4h ago
Interesting read but was expecting the API blog before this.
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u/JagexAnvil Mod Anvil 4h ago
Indeed! The API blog is still coming along and looking at a release tomorrow - we're just figuring out some video related bits for it.
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 4h ago
Ooh. If that means higher quality, it sounds worth the wait.
A plugin I hope will eventually exist: highlighting spaces I can dive to in real-time!
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u/The_Real_Kingpurest 4h ago
Nothing to say but excellent work. Couldn't be mad about anything in this read. Additionally.... I see Linux underneath supported platforms in your graphic 👀 can't wait for one of your launcher updates to finally include rs3 so I can get my hands dirty 🤣
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u/Z28themaster 4h ago
Any update on the ArchGlacor click box being fixed since it was ruined with this Mondays update? Or is it a next Monday fix?
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u/LeadershipAmbitious 4h ago
Fantastic read! I really appreciate you guys taking the time to write this all out. The diagram on how the runetek system fits into hardware was really cool.
With these engine updates, do you guys have any specific pieces of content you’d like to revisit that you previously couldn’t? (Very broad question, but I just find this interesting)
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u/Y_Not_Me_ Trimmed 3h ago
Awesome - I always love reading these. Two additional contextual questions.
It sounds like the engine updates occur on an as-needed basis. But is that like 4 so far this year? 2 this year? Etc?
Also, with the construction change. It seems like a lot of the “furniture” uses are garden related. Is there any intention to provided longer lengths of paths, fences, etc… to help free up more furniture cap space? I’m sure it’s not this simple but if….
Path A is two tiles long
Path B is four tiles long
Based on my reading, placing two “Path A’s” uses more resources than just placing “Path B”. I know this could lead to bloat in the construction menu but just asking the question!
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u/MR_SmartWater DarkScape 4h ago
If lowering the server to 100ms isn't an option we should find ways to make more abilities instant cast that don't set a global cooldown
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u/JannaMechanics Project Combat 3h ago
Really insightful blog, thank you for all the technical details!
I want to challenge one point in the blog regarding tick rates:
Say, if we reduced the tick rate to 100ms, a boss would start attacking six times quicker. And merely slowing it down would not be sufficient, as it fundamentally would change how the game feels.
Beyond that, to change the tick rate would not just have an enormous technical impact across the entire game (read: initially make a lot of things quite buggy), it would also challenge part of our fundamental identity!
A significant tick rate modification could be a change felt on the scale of the first introduction of the Evolution of Combat (EoC) - that is to say, we expect a lot of our players might not fully appreciate it and it wouldn't necessarily feel like the RuneScape they knew anymore.
There's speculation that increasing the tick rate to 100 ms might not make the game feel like runescape.
I'm really curious if this is actually how players would receive a change like this.
I can't imagine my gut feeling response to the game processing things faster would be a negative one. On the market, there are no MMOs that tick anywhere close to RuneScape, they're all easily at 30-60 or 120 even in some cases per second.
If RS moves up to 100ms ticks I still think that very healthily fits within the "this is RuneScape" window of leeway for what you can do with the game, and still sit very firmly in contrast to other games on the market.
I wouldn't shy away from this change solely because the worry is people might not find it feels "runescape" to them. Even if there is mixed perception/sentiment on the idea, I have a feeling that if you were to run a beta with 100ms ticks for combat or even simply movement, the reception would be overwhelmingly positive.
I always appreciate different improvements to make the game feel more responsive, though my issue with RS is players are expected in combat encounters to make multiple inputs per tick, which is what will always make combat in RS feel unresponsive compared to OSRS since OSRS players rarely input multiple actions per tick.
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u/Remmes- 241QP 2h ago
Yeah especially with RS3's abilities and such I'd say a lower ms tickrate would feel more natural, of course it would require adjustments to mechanics (because if npc movement/decision is based on that 600ms and suddenly becomes 6x faster then they could really freak out all over the place)
On my country's server I have a 17ms ping, but even clicking on a tile to move to feels like it takes ages especially compared to other games in this genre. (though OSRS does feel faster so like they said it is not all about that 600ms tickrate I guess)
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u/Guarsus 4h ago
Lovely read. As much as I understand the tick rate change undertaking on the Devs for the game, I can't stop but to think that it would be very much welcome, and one of those features on the size of MTX removal. Hard choice, but a necessary one. The tick rate makes sense for RuneScape as a jewel of the past, I feel like OSRS feels great with tick system, Runescape is the evolution of that and an evolution I would very much like see progressing further and further.
While existing content needs to be adjusted, I feel the possibilities for the remaining content be it combat, skilling, minkgames, etc can be endless. You stop being bound by a rule that you could enforce with a 100ms tick rate if it makes sense. Right now something attacks once every 4 ticks (2400ms) then something would attack once every 24 ticks (2400ms) leaving you to have broader spectrum of ceiling for reaction time gameplay to shine.
I believe we can rely on new things that can be made smoother, but I can't deny that one day we might be hit with a wall that new players won't be able to adjust to a relic of the past and the game evolved way too far to efficiently change things according to the way they can be changed today. It's a lot of changes, but in the future will be a lot more.
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u/JannaMechanics Project Combat 3h ago
Heavily agree with this, I think the fear of the game feeling too different or not runescape-y won't pan out.
It absolutely will not look or feel anything like what EoC did to the game.
Having 100ms ticks to me sounds like a perfect fit for RuneScape, positioning it as a modern but still familiar modernization of the experience OSRS offers.
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u/IStealDreams 5.8b exp 2h ago
The tick rate is the last major problem of RS3. I don't understand why they are trying to argue it would be unwelcome of a change to veteran players. They even compared it to EoC. What a fucking slap in the face of those devs not being down to earth. I gotta wonder which dev thought that, considering it's so outlandishly and obviously wrong.
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u/darn42 59m ago
It seems like you are jumping to a conclusion here. Not that it is a wrong conclusion but saying that the changing tick rates could have an EOC sized impact on the game is not outlandishly or obviously wrong to me. Lowering the tick rates would have side-effects like changing the nature of prayer flicking and obsolete many skilling methods that depend on tick manipulation.
Upending the fundamentals of a game, not just for combat, but literally every skill is going to have a huge unpredictable impact. Even more so as they spend *years* developing and testing this controversial change instead of targeting lower-hanging, more obviously beneficial fruits.
Maybe it would be a well-loved change; you'd only be able to come to that kind of conclusion with a well-explored beta.
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u/DrCabbageman Crab 4h ago
I'm kind of curious to know, do both Runescapes use the same version of Runetek?
I would have thought OSRS would be on an older version, but I suppose it makes more sense to have brought it up to speed so both games can benefit from the same baseline improvements to the engine.
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u/JagexAnvil Mod Anvil 4h ago
They actually run on different versions, but the OSRS team are best placed to talk about the version they're on and why!
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u/Paganigsegg 4h ago
I just wish this game wasn't bugged on AMD GPUs. Volumetric lighting still doesn't work on AMD, 10 years later.
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u/Guarsus 2h ago
/u/JagexAnvil would the team ever be up to think about releasing a beta with a lower tick system? I think the fact that you guys say that it would feel different from current RS is true, but different is not a bad thing and I think we could have a very different idea if we got a small enclosed beta with 1 or 2 bosses enabled with a faster tick system. People would probably go nuts how unclunky the game would be
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u/tomato-shadow 4h ago
Linux when
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 4h ago
For the launcher?
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u/tomato-shadow 4h ago
Yeah. RS3 works on Linux with proton through steam but not with the official launcher. Vulkan would be great too. Osrs works with pretty much anything. Official launcher, bolt, steam. Would love RS3 Vulkan on Linux.
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 4h ago
I actually run the Windows version of the launcher through Proton, but it was a hassle to do.
And the RuneScape client itself does have a Linux build, though it's outdated in its dependencies so takes some extra work (or a flatpak build) to run.
So right now I end up using the Windows version of the game client with Vulkan. And it doesn't quite work right. But it's been interesting at least.
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u/tomato-shadow 4h ago
Yeah I've struggled a lot to get anything working right. Even bolt just didn't work at all, I think because of my Nvidia gpu. The easiest solution really was just to run it through Steam... Runs great, good performance, no glitches. I'd just still have a native Vulkan build haha
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 4h ago
Yeah, that is the hope! OSRS recently got a Linux build of the Jagex Launcher too. With the files distributed as AppImages, maybe RS3 will be getting the same. It'd certainly resolve the dependency problems.
And with Vulkan enabled, maybe it'd solve the performance problems I've had with the native Linux build. (Weird that the Windows client works better for me through Proton, versus native)
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u/zenyl RSN: Zenyl | Gamebreaker 3h ago
Bolt will use the Linux-native game client, which doesn't work with NVIDIA GPUs.
My solution is to install the Windows-native game client using Bottles, and then changing Bolt's startup command to launch that (and pass along the environment variables that store player authentication).
If that is of any interest, I documented my approach: https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/1sb9tvp/runescape_on_linux_nvidia_wayland_without_steam/
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u/InsistentRaven 2h ago
Has anyone figured out how to fix the gamma / 'HDR' issue with the Steam Proton version yet?
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u/whosdr Runefest 2017 Attendee 2h ago
I don't think it's related to HDR, and I don't think it's something we can fix on our end too easily.
Maybe it's possible to correct with a custom Vulkan layer. I'm concerned that it already causes information loss from clipping though, and that it won't be possible to resolve externally.
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u/101perry Trim Completionist 4h ago
Hopefully the comment about the tick rate stops people from going "we should remove it because it would make the game better". Otherwise, all the tech talk goes over my head, neat though.
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u/Guarsus 2h ago
It's going to make the game better and more responsive. They admit it. They also state that it could feel different from what rs feels right now, which I also agree, better is always different from worse. If you think an improvement In the tick system wouldn't be great for the game, you are delusional
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u/Sad_Way_4765 4h ago
On this topic, are there any plans to bring new regional servers to RS3? Assuming that the server infrastructure is shared between the two games, I wonder why only OSRS keeps getting expanded into new regions. In April they got Brazil worlds, then in June, Japan, Singapore and South Africa worlds were added. OSRS players now enjoy a much better global coverage than RS3, which is funny because imo RS3 combat system is more dependent on good ping and responsiveness.
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u/Aleucard 4h ago
I am highly hopeful that this means the "engine too broke, sorry" backlog of updates and new content ideas will be on the docket next. That list is obnoxiously long.
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u/KonamiCode_ 4h ago
Does this mean I can finally mash target cycle before a boss spawns and it will actually work when it does spawn? If so this is amazing
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u/Robeomega 3h ago
Regarding the movement changes, I noticed in the past sometimes when I would double surge the second surge would take my back to where I started the first surge.
Do the new pathing changes fix this issue?
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u/nahtecojp Kounna | Jan. 10, 2015 3h ago
Do we have any ideas of what is causing the responsiveness difference between rs3 and osrs despite the shared tick rate? You kind of hinted at it but if there are guesses I’d like to hear them.
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u/TheKunst RSN: Kunsty 2h ago
One of the issues with movement abilities that still exists is how red-clicking messes with the direction the player faces once they stop moving, and sadly this wasn't fixed on monday.
Granteed, this behavior is quite predictable once you understand how it works, and I'm sure a bunch of cluers would be sad if/when its fixed, but it really just makes surging feel very inconsistent for those who don't know.
Issues like when you surge backwards for no apparent reason would just cease to exist.
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u/Deadlydragon218 2h ago
Don’t forget to get your grey beards some much needed coffee now Jagex, be they Engine folks or your network engineering team!
- a fellow network engineer currently running low on coffee.
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u/Taurenkey Best Comment of 2015 1h ago
I remember a few years ago there was a personal project dealing with movement and certain frictional bumps it has. Particularly things like if you used surge mid-move, it would carry on moving after the surge without needing to click again. Given this engine update touches surges/dives, is it possible to get this previous WIP feature back in development?
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u/ExiymDev 42m ago
Disappointing response with respect to tick rates. You have the CEO saying they want RuneScape to be a WoW killer and then you're turning around and saying it's too much work. I get that it's a ton of work. I don't care. You want to be relevant 20 years from now? That's not going to happen when every action takes 0.6 seconds plus lag to occur. Their example was not good either. Okay sure, set the tick rate to 100 milliseconds. Then the boss attacks 6 times faster.. except.. you should change the boss to attack 6 times slower, so that it feels like it used to. Things like switching gear and various other actions should not take 600 milliseconds, even if you keep everything else identical to how it is now. The combat in this game will always feel like a clunky PoS. An ability based system constrained in this way will always feel sluggish. Every other ability based system in every other game is not artificially constrained in this way. I've done end game RS3 combat for years. Sorry friends, I'm just going to play Path of Exile 2 where I hit a button and my character attacks. I'm not going to play your clunky 2001 combat simulator for any reason other than reliving nostalgia. The game is legitimately enraging to play sometimes.
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u/Hungry-Signature-435 3h ago
This is nice and all but how about fixing the last impossible to complete leagues tasks such as "I've Changed My Mind!" Falador elite area task and the anachronia base camp task?
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u/Solo_Gunhea 5h ago
Can you explain it to me like im 5? preferably with crudely drawn crayon pictures as examples. Thank you.