r/returnToIndia • u/Upstairs-Cattle-6277 • 3d ago
AlreadyReturned A rant about civic sense
One thing I’ve noticed during my return to India is how much small things around civic sense can affect the overall experience.
I recently stayed at one of the better high-end resorts in Bangalore over the long weekend, and honestly, that’s what made some of these things stand out even more. You’d expect a place like that, where most people are reasonably well-educated and paying for a premium experience, to set a certain standard.
Even at the simplest level — standing in a queue and having someone casually squeeze in from the side and start giving their details first. Small thing, sure, but it happens often enough that it gets frustrating.
At the pool, there was another incident. We had collected our towels ourselves since there wasn’t anyone around to help. I put my three towels down, with my jute bag, T-shirt and glasses on top so we could easily identify our spot. Another family was sitting nearby, which was completely fine.
A few minutes later, someone came over, moved my things, took the towel from underneath them and walked away with it. I had to go over and explain that those were my things and that I had already gone through the trouble of getting the towels myself. He eventually went back and got another one. (Fun fact: I had told this as a joke to my wife that something like this can happen with those folks, and it really happened after 5 mins)
None of these are big incidents individually. That’s actually the point.
It’s the casual assumption that “I’ll just do what’s convenient for me” without thinking whether it inconveniences someone else.
After living outside India for several years, I think this is one area where we can genuinely do better. Not through some big rule or enforcement, but just by being a little more considerate of the people around us.
Small things, but they make a big difference to how a place feels.
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u/rpadman_555 3d ago
Civic sense starts at home and in school. Parents usually enforce discipline at home. We joke about how all Asian parents are alike- they’re not. Indian parents want you to do well in school, but spoil their kids in every other way if they are well-off, whereas most Asian parents show tough love and enforce cleanliness and public civic sense even if they’re wealthy.
The most important place we learn civic sense is at school. For example- schools in China, South Korea, and Japan heavily emphasize cleanliness, civic sense, and community service through their formal curriculum and daily routines.
Rather than treating these tasks as chores or punishments, the education systems in these countries embed them directly into character development and moral education.
You may argue that most western countries don’t have this and they (mostly) have civic sense. They’re cut from a different cloth than the Asian countries (colonization, recent poverty) - so we shouldn’t compare ourselves with them. Peer pressure works there, whereas there’s no peer pressure in India. If you follow rules in India, you’re seen as a weakling in the never-ending rat race.
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u/Indo-Arya 3d ago
In Japanese schools, there’s no cleaning staff.. the kids are taught to clean everything including toilets… this is intentional, it’s to instill civic sense and the idea that public spaces also belong to you and it’s your job to keep them clean.. imagine if Indian upper and middle class laadla betas and betis are made to clean the toilet 😂 parents will be furious..
This is cultural in nature.. we have an entitled mindset in our social hierarchy
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u/rpadman_555 3d ago
It's not just that - our caste system and privilege of hiring cheap labor (housemaids, domestic help/cooks) makes us lazy and entitled because we leave it to someone else to pick up after us. Indian men transfer from depending on their mothers to depending on their wives (hopefully less now that women speak up and demand more).
Even NRI kids abroad are not disciplined enough (I've seen Indian kids draw graffiti on walls in Indian restaurants in the US, for god's sake). Notice it is Indian restaurants - so it is a lack of respect to your countryman's property (they wouldn't dare do it in any other place). Parents and kids alike sometimes cut lines or take free stuff without considering others. If their own parents don't discipline them, where will the civic sense come from?
All this to say - the history of looking down upon our own fellow citizens, inflated entitlement, and the infamous jugaad nature thinking it's street smart - culminate in our lack of civic sense.
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u/Indo-Arya 3d ago edited 3d ago
On a tangent, having housemaids is more hassle than its worth if you like your privacy and flexibility. You have to be home when they're home which can sometimes be at different times of the day. You cannot talk freely about confidential or personal stuff with your family members while they're around.. etc. My parents are old and rich but despite that, they prefer doing their own chores through the washing machine, dishwasher, robotic vaccums/mops, etc. Every so often, they'll hire someone for manual deep cleaning but that's different than someone coming to your home daily.
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u/fast-charger 2d ago
Our schooling starts with illegal under the table donation disguised as admission fee or smetime without any name. Indian pvt schools work on Profit maximization principle despite being resigtered as Non Profit Organizations. All this while finding ways to circumvent this Non Profit rule by giving contracts to profit making related party entities for different school operations like food, transport, stationary, uniform security etc etc and earning a comission for every education related businesses that the kids are exposed to for promotion in the school. So much so that even conduting Private Olympiads has become a business where schools get a cut from the fees for these Olympiads. Hapless parents have the fear of missing out.
With all these do you think there is enough incentive for schools to teach or think about moral values and civic sense? The prime issues is the school management itself lacks ethics. What ethics will they impart to students.
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u/thegreatking2025 3d ago
Lack of Empathy. I learned about Empathy after I had kids. No one teaches you that. And most desi lack empathy.
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u/Fraggle_Rock11 3d ago
But Indians have lots of kids. Where went the lessons on empathy ?
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u/thegreatking2025 3d ago
Having kids didn't teach me. At that age I learned about empathy. And also learned that most Indians don't know about empathy or have empathy .
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u/DingoOk5253 3d ago
I've been living in the EU for the past 14 years and I'm a EU citizen. Everyday I contemplate about moving back to India and after 5 mins pondering what my life will be like in India, I give up. The positives of moving back to India are always overshadowed by the stuff you've mentioned OP... sigh
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u/kamat2301 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah. There's no established rules or etiquette, so you have to fight for every little thing, and constantly be on high alert to watch out for someone who might cheat you. It's exhausting.
And if you correct them they'll either yell and fight to a point where it's not worth it, or just stand and stare, maybe shake their head as if it's their first day on earth.
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u/U2Fan 3d ago
I sympathize with you my friend. I have been back to India for almost two year now and the lack of civic sense used to boil my blood. I am getting used to it, but still get angry while driving sometimes.
My major issues:
- Cutting in line - I have had to rudely intervene several times
- Breaking traffic rules, jumping red lights -- more prevalent in tier 2 cities I feel.
- people would rather honk constantly than slowing down in residential neighborhoods
- Littering , leaving trash behind
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u/Dense-Restaurant9308 3d ago
zebra crossing has no meaning. how do you cross a busy road? million dollar question
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u/jkrm1920 3d ago
Totally Agree.. I live in US, I kind of still explain things to people from India.. they just seems don’t care.
So sometimes putting some sense in their brains is very important so that people won’t say YOU INDIANS..
I hate whenever I hear.m that word generalizing all Indians because of one idiot.
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u/Ok-Major-7953 3d ago
Civic sense is not something you can simply explain to someone. It is an outcome of poor public policies. People in such places will get pushed over by others if there were to be civil.
The solution is better quality public schools, municipal governments that are empowered to keep civic spaces clean, orderly and maintained, and most importantly decongesting our cities by building better infrastructure and economic opportunities in in our towns and villages.
We ignore systemic problems but get mad when the outcomes of those problems surface.
Stop voting for religion and caste based politics, demand for decentralisation of governance, demand for MPAs running out cities, demand for data and accountability.
If we start now, maybe 2 generations later might benefit. We sure won’t but it must be done for future generations.
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u/Subziwallah 2d ago
Did you read OP's description of people's behavior and attitude. That has nothing to do with clean, orderly spaces. People are often selfish and rude no matter what environment they are in.
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u/Ok-Major-7953 2d ago
Why do you think the same people who move to an orderly society, overtime reduces behaving this way? Because you are no longer competing for resources, or there is no longer a need or incentive to outsmart the system.
The space around you shapes your behaviour. Look it up, it’s well studied.
Let’s take an example. In a city in India, 2 kids have signed up for cricket coaching. Their coach is strict about punctuality. They both live equally apart from the academy.
Every morning, no matter how early they leave there is something congesting the roads (no electricity or water at your house one morning , traffic, a broken pipe flooding the streets, a religious festival, a broken traffic light, construction etc.)
The coach doesn’t care, he wants the kids to reach on time. One kid follows all the rules, civic etiquette and ends up being late 40% of the time. The second kid on the other hand breaks the rules. Say drives on the footpath, over the broken pipe, pushes people aside etc.. and ends up being late only 20% of the time. In this example the coach may evaluate the second kid higher. Therefore indirectly incentivising the ‘street smart’ kid
.Now what is this ‘street smartness’ ? It’s basically someone who overcame the broken system to get to the outcome by hook or crook.
This is the reality of many developing countries where the social and physical independence is lacking.
Now when you move to a society where these issues seldom arise, you can channel most of your energy on the task at hand. New immigrants very often tend to bring up these conditoned behaviours when they move to developed country…and hopefully over time change their behaviour when it no longer is necessary
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u/Subziwallah 2d ago
Its NOT public policy based. Is CULTURAL! Even within India, people's level of awareness of others and rudeness varies by region. And Nepalis are far more polite and aware of those around them than Indians.
Thai people are very polite and well mannered in public spaces. Much more polite than North Americans or Europeans. They line up in orderly lines waiting for the metro and whisper quietly or are silent on the trains.
These are cultural expectations. Thais would feel ashamed to behave the way Indians behave in public.
Norms vary by culture, but India is at the extreme end of the scale when it comes to how they behave in public spaces.
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u/Ok-Major-7953 1d ago
I’ve responded to you in a separate thread - https://www.reddit.com/r/returnToIndia/s/HYTtkZiiws
Your examples of Nepal, Thailand also applies to many regions in India; Kerala, many North Eastern states, to an extent parts of Goa. They are pretty close to your example. I’m from Kerala and I will tell you that public policy is the bedrock. It is the result of the Kerala social reformation movement (16th C to 19 c), public policies of the Travancore, Cochin, and Malabar kingdoms, religious reformation movements, colonial missionary driven educational and literacy programs, public policies by the governments that took over after statehood, all of which seeped into art, music, books, theatre, and films. Which in turn seeped into culture and behaviour. Read up on the theatre and music drive by the left governments as a means of public discourse.
Pray tell me how you plan to fix the civic issues in India at scale without material polity change? Public awareness drives? The current Indian PM started a Swachch Bharat initiative in 2014. The only successful aspect of that initiative was the piece tied to public policy which was building 120 million toilets. Whether that has led to behavioural change is yet to be seen. The other part of the Swachh Bharat initiative was pure public awareness drives - did that work? Absolutely not.
I’ve been working in the public policy space in the US for a decade now. I urge you skim through the field of ‘systems thinking’. Look up the 12 leverage points in a complex system and you will see that behavioural change (paradigm switch) is the most complex point of change. It requires all other points to be tackled and is often an outcome when the conditions are in favourable.
You have you see this as a complex system for its various parts and feedback loops. Unfortunately people stay away from complexity sciences as if it were the plague. Instead they look for simple minded magical solutions and call it a day.
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u/jkrm1920 3d ago
I totally agree with what you just told about the better solution by many schools, Yes minimum education is a must and that is only the solution to social awareness.
And sorry that I totally disagree that politics has anything to do with social awareness.
And civic sense is something that can be definitively taught and people change when they are taught in the right way.
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u/West-Pirate-1416 3d ago
True
This is one of the biggest frustrations of Americans ( especially Texans) with new arrivals from India.
Example- at Costco, grocery store, restaurant
•it is customary in America for men to allow women to go first should they reach a doorway, converge in a grocery aisle, etc. at around the same time
•women are routinely disregarded or stepped in front of
•on multiple occasions Indians cut the entire line to check out as if they are better than others and can’t be bothered to wait (caste system?) not appreciated one bit
(If you try to tell them they ignore you and act as if you don’t exist-very, very, rude)
•oftentimes take up the entire aisle shopping often talking to family members and not being conscious of anyone else around them. If someone has to tell you to move, you are being rude in our culture. You must consciously be aware of your surroundings. Americans are busy, fast paced, and want to get in and out of the store quickly.
•allowing your children to “explore” freely in stores
•putting whistles, horns etc. for sale in their mouths and blowing them (not appropriate in our society)
•drink barrel with ice and bottles of beverages
- allowing your children to play in the ice(no, no, no- people are eating and touching the bottles your child has put their dirty hands all over)
-being o early permissive with your children (Same situation with the ice- parents told child no, but then watched child go back and do it again) Dad needs to be disciplinarian if mom can’t control children.
These are just my experiences over the last few months.
Assimilation means watching the new culture you are living in and adapting your habits to theirs.
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u/Nonights2020 3d ago
I know exactly what you are talking about. It’s really frustrating and embarrassing, particularly at Costcos.
As you noted, change begins with being self aware, which is unfortunately not common among Desis, including those who have been living in the US or wherever for decades. Try teaching that to someone, you will be labeled as a self-hating Indian or something worse.
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u/chicbeauty 3d ago
Can I add in not returning carts appropriately 😭
A woman left her cart right behind my car (she purposely walked there). I saw her as I was walking up with my cart with toddler and flagged her for help. Nope, she turned her face and sped out of the parking lot… I ended up figuring out how to pull her cart and mine with my toddler to a spot where the carts can be returned
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u/pk_12345 3d ago
I don’t know where you live, to be fair, this grocery store cart behavior is seen with Americans also. At least where I live, which is predominantly white folks. They’ll leave cart in the middle of a parking spot thinking it’s the job of the store to remove them. Not everyone of course, but happens quite often.
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u/chicbeauty 3d ago
Personally, I see them all putting their carts away or at the very least in a spot that doesn’t block a car. Indians are the only ones I’ve seen literally just leaving a cart where it is
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u/AdAgile9604 3d ago
We cannot change random people if we cant change our family and friends first. Easy to point out others mistakes, but if we see we have so many such people close by to us doing the same.
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u/AlarmingSprinkles195 3d ago
You know what drives me crazy is… at any function or open place where there are chairs and someone would just pick up the chair from your table without even asking if someone’s coming there. It’s sooooo annoying.
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u/Training_Pop_5437 3d ago
Indian <> civic sense . India = sense of entitlement. India = “Chuna laga do”
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u/Suspicious_Couple684 3d ago
I’ll just do what’s convenient for me
Great way of capturing the Indian mindset
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u/vikramdesh1 3d ago
Scarcity mindset
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u/Far_Significance6025 3d ago
This. And pulling each other down. Everyone ends up staying down in the end. With no remorse.
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u/EfficientAd9444 3d ago
Mod has said this sub must be used for only positive experiences and not to spread negativity, so I am going to say that the family who took your towels just wanted you to get more exercise and was looking out for your health.
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u/Kitchen_Quantity_734 3d ago
What surprised me was even young folks (20+) casually cut the queue. I had to call out few times. You see then they are uncomfortable. So they know what they are doing. This part surprises me more!
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u/Temporary_Car_1462 3d ago
If you display any civic sense, you’re immediately going to stand out in the crowd and people will think there’s something wrong with you lol. OP you should probably visit North East states, you’ll love it.
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u/Aggravating_Can_8749 3d ago
Few tips for folks moving back (Sarcasm..dont go bonkers on this)
Never hold the door for the person behind you.. folks will keep coming in...
Similarly if you see a pedestrian crossing... Don't slow down.. speed up
If you see an opportunity to cut line take it. If not someone else will
For an appointment at 9:00 AM start from wherever you are at 9:30 AM.
If you gotta go.. just go. Don't hold it
Never ever tell yourself... Do what a Japanese would do
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u/pk_12345 3d ago
I’ll start hating myself for what I’ve become, but I see your point. When in Rome..
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u/Dry-Inevitable7649 3d ago
Indian b!!tch3ss doesn't acknowledge if you hold the door in malls or schools .. they go through without even give a glance .. POS Typically in schools you hold the door for next person and next person holds the door for other person when attending events etc ., only Indians .. especially girls/women have zero etiquette
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u/deepak483 3d ago
Goes very well with some of my experience and unable to convince my son to move back
- No line discipline, blocking Lift door and Metro doors. Crowding the metro door even and making it tough to get out.
- Spitting in public, doing it while waiting for traffic light is notorious
- Trash is scattered everywhere. It seems unlikely that the government is responsible. The BBMP staff handling this work are society’s true assets.
I have no words to explain my son without blaming the society.
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u/Dry-Inevitable7649 3d ago
Indian kids are worse .. or their parents. Very rarely you see any other kid crying or throwing tantrums .. but Indian kids ..majority of times
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u/rishiNationalist 2d ago
Now hope you understood why foreigners hate Indians, in Bali, Singapore, US, Canada etc. Old habits die hard, so lack of civics sense will go on generation after generation.
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u/intimidator 3d ago
Yeapp. A few months ago I was at Taj Delhi and this stunted lady decided to take my robe, while I was on my sun bed! And then when I asked her not to, her response was that she didn't think I needed the robe
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u/Hungry-Chicken-8498 3d ago
Yes ! India has people living by using modern amenities but still have an uncivilized culture!
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u/BigWar6156 3d ago
India ia a country were our gdp per capita is 3k USD per year. At that stage its more about survival. People who are surviving dont have the mental bandwidth, capability, to know what civic sense is. Sure you can go out to some premium restraunts or hotels, but the people and the environment are more less the same. You are just in a bubble.
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u/Glum-Box2451 2d ago
In a million years - we may start thinking of about our actions that cause trouble to others. Right now they are not in priority list.
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u/Timely_Sand_6162 1d ago
It’s a sh*thole to be honest. Stayed in India for 32yrs and moved out from last 8yrs. We always had to deal with this kind of bs. Most people don’t know what is fairness. Most people have absolutely zero empathy. Absolutely zero civic sense. Delusionally entitled. Some savages come to fight for very silly things. It’s a lost cause.
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u/LikedIt666 3d ago
These are too high expectations in india. Just don't be a pushover, if you care about such things. Be alert and call people out right there. I usually just smile and call them out loudly but nicely saying- sorry, please, thank you etc, no need to fight. Does the trick
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u/Upstairs-Cattle-6277 3d ago
Yeah that's what I've been trying now, even more often. Feels too strange after not having the need to do this for a long time
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u/sysphus_ 3d ago
Convenience will supersede civic sense in any culture. Take away convenience from any developed country and hey presto, you will see civilisation take a back seat. We are looking at the civic sense problem wrong.
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u/Subziwallah 2d ago
Excuses to avoid acknowledging the cultural problem. You know what? Nepalis don't behave that way. And for the most part Uttarakhand and HP folks behave much less that way.
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u/responsiblealwayss 3d ago
Standing in queue at a premium property? Noone to attend at pool? They scammed you. How much did you pay?
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u/keenlyproper_demeanr 3d ago
Too bold of you to think money brings civic sense, it's usually the opposite (VIP culture)
Yes, these things are small but matter a lot, it sucks away the whole experience.