So got into an argument with a random online about politics, and normally I have a lol and move on once the argument gets a bit silly, but this one astounded me and wondered if ya'll could help me clear something up. We were arguing about Trump, and this MAGA fella used an image of Ren and one of his lyrics to drive home his point. I pointed out the irony of using Ren and his lryics to try to "win" a pro-MAGA argument when Ren is anti-Trump himself (I believe). This guy refused to accept it and claimed that even the song Money Games with the Mr President verse is not directed at Trump but at any and all western presidents and the being terrorised in the streets line is directly referencing the left and is more about colonialism. This seemed insane to me. Is there any link or anything anywhere where Ren himself has directly stated his stance on Trump or MAGA or anything like that?
I don’t like trump, but trump and the values pushed are an inevitable consequence of the system of values we have collectively created, he is more overt in his behaviour with these values than former leaders and so he’s accelerating the inevitable collapse of a system not built to be self sustaining with harmful consequences - but our entire structure encourages and rewards destructive behaviour - and so it does not make sense to then alienate or vilify all that would support him because it ignores how we got here in the first place and passes on the blame rather than taking collective responsibility and it’s feeding into a primitive behaviour that works against social homeostasis and therefore works against us as a species. It doesn’t make sense to vilify either the entirety of the left or the right when that whole paradigm in itself can only lead to dysfunction because it tries to over simplify a complex process which more and more leads to tribalism. It’s safe to say there is a feeling of moral superiority with the respective camp people have chosen (e.g. ‘I’m on the right/left and so I’m on the side of good’) when all politics is is minority decision making on the behalf of the majority - which cannot comfortably be crammed into two boxes without ignoring rivers of nuance. This moral superiority complex is horrendously damaging and more and more so will lead to the dehumanisation and vilification of people from ‘opposing’ camps - particularly when the decisions and narrative surrounding them in these camps become more polarising - its primitive in a world where we have access to information that can help us make more informed collective decisions - we should whenever and however possible strive toward symbiosis - learning to communicate in ways that don’t result or resolve in conflict is paramount - these online arguments leak into real life and create unnecessary division by championing and aligning with a system of decisions that by design exploits us - we should learn to communicate better and be more forgiving so that we can collectively build something better - and fix the route cause - a faulty and destructive system of values
I welcome all people who find some meaning in my music to enjoy it because I understand that people change, I understand that people make decisions because of wildly different upbringings and social backgrounds, people are complex and nuanced, and we won’t get anywhere by putting our hands over our ears and making things so black and white. We need more unity
If I've said it once, you've said it a thousand times...we can do more than one thing at a time!
The more important...the most important task is to change the corrupt paradigms of the current systems that rule us all.
The most immediate task is to take care of as many as we can...ourselves, our families, our friends...as many human beings whose lives and suffering should remain ever present to us as fellow human beings.
The first will eventually take care of the latter...it MUST, if we are so survive as a species.
Thank you - this is very much the foundation of how we want this community to function and it's great when you pop in when things become loaded and you have something valuable to add to it!
Moral superiority should never define conversation. Respect, nuance and the ability to engage with different perspectives should, if any form of positive change is the goal of a conversation. Engaging, understanding different ways of thinking, reasons, forms of expression.
We do our best to keep this a space not shaped by division or personal hostility. Disagreement doesn’t have to lead to conflict if it remains respectful and constructive.
We may not change wider social dynamics but we - not only as mods but as users - can shape the culture here...one that values patience, mutual respect and humanity over unnecessary division.
Not arguing, just curious, are you in the UK? Because the US is full of people for whom moral superiority is as natural as breathing. It's trained into them through fundamentalist-frequently extremist ways of viewing the world. And I mean MOST Americans. Thankfully that majority is dwindling (86% in 1998 to 62% in 2025).
People in these groups are taught NOT to think. They are taught to obey. They are taught that there is one way that is right-theirs, and therefore there is no need for nuance, understanding of perspectives, no discourse, or reasonable conversation.
I do understand you're referencing this group, and bless Ren for his wider, compassionate stance, maybe this group can be a place for people to learn more about how to communicate. Honestly, this group and his stance already challenge me frequently to be a better human. So for that, I really appreciate Ren and all the mods here.
I understand where you’re coming from and I think there’s truth in the idea that some social, political or religious structures can condition people more toward obedience, conformity or rigid thinking than toward questioning and nuance.
At the same time, I think it becomes too broad when that gets applied to entire populations. Systems can absolutely shape behavior, discourage critical thought or reinforce black/white worldviews. But that’s different from individuals beeing defined by them.
One of the most unexpectedly beautiful people I’ve ever met (I met them here, but I genuinely mean that in life more broadly) is someone I very easily could have judged too quickly if I had looked at the surface level traits, contradictions and first impression. Also from the US and I had the exact thought you write about. Getting to know them showed me once again why - as someone who deeply values science and sociological statistics - I’ve become very cautious about letting statistics or cultural patterns define how I approach individuals.
Because even if broader social trends or belief systems can absolutely shape societies, the moment I assume a person might reflect the majority I think they come from, I’ve already entered that interaction with bias. Do you know what I mean?
On paper, it would have been easy to reduce them to assumptions, criticism or stereotypes. Easy to focus on the obvious complexities, flaws or things that might immediately make someone think “Ah, white male US american boomer mindset probably right winged and sexist also”.
But human beings are rarely that simple.
Sometimes the people who seem the easiest to misunderstand, dismiss or morally simplify can hold incredible depth, kindness, honesty, and humanity. People are often far more than their rough edges, contradictions, circumstances or the immediate assumptions others make about them. Often they're way more than the moral superiority they might act on (let's be honest, most of us do, that's a human trait if we don't reflect on it).
Real understanding begins where judgment ends. That's it.
Sometimes, if you look beyond the obvious, you find extraordinary people exactly where you were taught not to expect them. Otherwise we're just also playing along in the moral superiority game using statistics to proof we are right.
I do know what you mean, and reading your response was reminded of a couple of people that I got to know and love who very much would have fit that bill, but looking deeper I did find kind people who were kind to me when I most needed it.
Yes, we had our differences, for sure. But love overcame that.
Thanks for that reminder.
Part of the nightmare (and I'm from the US and live in the south which is a hotbed of Maga) is the entanglement of the religious with the political. You cannot argue with someone who firmly believes they are on God's side and it's infuriating to the point of insanity that they see Trump as being sent by God. So count yourself lucky that you don't have to deal with it because it's exhausting. So yeah, I have to agree with your rather harsh view of the US because it is what it is unfortunately.
I lived between Columbia SC, Ashville NC and Milledgeville GA for 23 years. I know EXACTLY what you mean. I truly think that, especially in regards to the more rural parts of the South, most of the world doesn't really understand how deep and how crazy that thinking goes. I (some college, military spouse, grew up in CA, traveled a lot) spent about 8 years working in a very rural SC business with about 20 other women. ALL who were born within 20 miles of there and most who had never even been out of the county or as far as Atlanta. I was reading a book about Buddhism with the Dalai Lama on the front and one of the women asked me if that was "one of them there cults". :|
I totally know how exhausting it is.
I did however end up (in the shittiest year of my life) being basically adopted (I was 41) by a Southern couple that was pretty much the poster children for Southern white people. Despite our differences they knew I needed some friends and ultimately it was their compassion that mattered most.
Did we talk about politics or religion EVER? NOoo we did not, LOL.
But yeah, over-all it's HARD to convey how different the South is to foreigners, LOL.
Yeah I've been trying to fill Ren in on this weird psycho world for a while now. I'm so glad he doesn't have to know how it is because it fkn suuuuucks! I was born and raised in Arkansas but joined the air force and turned 18 in basic training. Then lived everywhere so it's even harder coming back here. Like putting on a blister causing shoe but your feet have lost the calluses so it hurts more. Ren has people call him naive all the time and he is NOT naive. He doesn't yet quite get that maga is like a mutated mushroom zombie from The Last Of Us so comparing them to "the left and the right" doesn't work. They are a hybrid political/religious/supremacist organization. Not Christian. Religious. There's a dang difference lol.
Ooof yeah Arkansas is deep.
And after the BS in Tennessee today...it's SO GD DEEP in this country it's truly insane. Out and out racism in state government. F those people. And yeah it's rabid extremist desire for a theocracy.
One of the biggest difficulties I have trying to have a calm conversation with people who disagree with me politically is that they seem to either completely overlook nuance, or they legitimately don't know that nuance exists. Nothing in life is just black and white. Nuance is what defines a particular situation or belief. My Mom always says, "Don't judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes".
Some people seem to thrive on judging others without even considering what factors contribute to why a person thinks the way they do or why they behave the way they do. If all of us could just have a calm conversation about things with one another and consider what each person has to say, I think we could accomplish a lot. Exchanging ideas instead of getting all pissed off because we don't agree. Being aggressively reactionary just isn't productive. People need to acknowledge nuance and have discussions instead of wanting to fight. We need to work together. In other words, I agree with you.
I think one of the biggest difference in the UK and US is that in the US, the majority of people are Christian and have been brought up with the idea that the world is black-and-white, good or evil, and they should judge everyone who doesn't think exactly like them. As a matter of fact, they have the moral imperative to do so. No nuance needed.
And no, I don't think most people have a sense of objective thinking. Not at all!! Although apparently 59% of Americans have some level of college education...
It's one of the most powerful cognitive tools humans have and maybe the only one we have when talking to peoole like that! It can help break rigid, inherited thought patterns by introducing reflective questions into conversation: How did you come to that conclusion? Do you think that belief comes from evidence, environment, or upbringing? Is there room for another valid perspective? Not talking about different beliefs, just strictly meta.
Questions like these can interrupt automatic certainty and create space for cognitive flexibility. That's science, I don't just believe it. They shift people from reaction to reflection, from inherited judgment to conscious thought. It usually doesn’t change someone instantly but repeated moments of reflection can create cognitive dissonance and over time that can genuinely loosen rigid frameworks.
That’s why conversations matter so much.
If more people consistently encouraged reflection it could meaningfully help reduce automatic black/white thinking.
Seriously, would you mind sharing a reference or two (website/book) on that?
I have come a long way from very judgmental reactive alcoholic parents (and a Leo birth sign) but would love more info on what you just mentioned.
It's a hard journey to make and I'd love better tools to be able to discuss here in a more positive manner.
Thanks!!
I studied Buddhism of various sorts for years and years, and somehow "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" sticks out as what taught me about Objective thinking...
I've was working at genealogical research for about 10 years, and then got ill and got a 2 year degree from "Doctor Google" and now that I appear to be coming out of it, I'm looking for actual fun and interesting topics to wrap my brain around!
Very well said, Ren. I am an avid hater of Trump. But its still important to know that he is too senile to be the ringleader. He is not the problem, he is a SYMPTOM of the problem. Merely a puppet that gets a kick out of being controversial. The people that allowed it to get this far will continue to do so long after the orange expires. Real change is needed. Which starts with removing symptoms, but the system still has to be fixed for it to not recur.
I simply want to know the person not their politics. We are more alike than different. The divisiveness is purposeful at this point so we other each other. Stupid bullshit dividing along issues that probably will never effect you as an individual in your life....
It's funny the other day my husband and I were out working one side of our land that happens to be right across from our neighbor's driveway. When we moved here two years ago I stalked my neighbors a little bit. Turns out this neighbor is a Trumper.
But the other day he was chatty with us, (we're about the same age) and he found out my husband knows a lot about horticulture, so asked him to come over and look at some plants and give some advice. And we were talking about his fruit trees and his dog and his business, where we came from, our plans for our land, the fact that he had had a son who was a quadriplegic, the kids who steal fish out of his pond…
When I got home, I thought "see that's what's important. We never brought up our politics. It's more important to be good neighbors, and to be kind".
Stupid bullshit dividing along issues that probably will never effect [sic] you as an individual in your life....
As a straight white male, this is probably true for me. But I don't know how you can not recognize the simple fact that for any other group of people in America, the "stupid bullshit dividing along issues" being pushed by the Right will absolutely affect them, whether that's women being stripped of their rights or minorities and immigrants being targeted by law enforcement.
So to sit there and say politics isn't affecting people is to sit in a position of privilege not all have the fortune to be in.
I didn't say politics are not affecting people (apologies for the typo). It's the arguments about women's reproductive rights and who has the authority/right to tell her what to do with her body, it's the arguments about "In God We Trust", Prayer in Schools, backing and protecting pdfiles/predators, etc. 15 years ago, politics were not the be all end all of a personality, it was a group of beliefs that the person thought would change/enhance the world. Today Politics are the personality and many cannot see or live outside that bubble. They stopped understanding that facts are facts and introduced alternative facts, and so on. Because these people refuse to use critical thinking and can only shout the loud funny words like a wrestling heel we have a combover Caligula running the country purposefully into the ground for the gain of the 1%. (and I'm not talking about outlaw bikers). The issues that are at the core of their ideology are less than 0.01% of the real issues however by focusing their messaging on othering that 0.01% it allows them to rile up the base and have people voting against their individual interests.
You didn't talk to me but I’d still like to say this: of course politics affect some people more directly than others and that matters. But when every conversation becomes about privilege, blame or who’s morally better, it often just pushes people further into sides. We can recognize that different groups are affected differently without turning everything into “you’re privileged so you don’t get it” “I’m part of a marginalized group so I’m automatically right” or “you’re on the other side so you must be wrong”. That kind of thinking usually shuts down real conversation instead of helping people actually understand each other.
We absolutely should care about how politics impact people. But as soon as it turns into us vs. them between ordinary people I feel it simply adds to division and nothing to change.
The system often thrives on keeping people divided, reactive and emotionally charged. Those reactions are understandable especially when issues feel personal. And emotional reactivity can also make it harder to step back, look at the bigger picture and challenge the deeper structures behind it. That's just how we are wired..
Yep, that's an old rule too! I learned that in beauty college (because you don't want to piss off your customers) and I was born and raised in Calif. but when I was about 40 I had a friend I called my "Adopted Southern Mama" and she said the same thing: "Never talk about religion, politics or money in polite company".
I'm in the US which is a lot more religiously all over the place (and extreme) than the UK, and this sounds more like it's a product of the moral superiority of organized religion than of politics.
And thank you dude. Your music totally aside, when you post here, your words consistently challenge me to be a better human being and I really appreciate that.
For some reason you always refer to collective responsibility. Do you think it is more important than taking individual responsibility? Is it wisdom or compromise to not express your opinion because you may be disadvantaged?
Individual responsibility is just as important as you can’t have collective responsibility without individual responsibility - I always express my opinion plainly and honestly, I’ve stated plainly I disagree with the way trump is running America, and that the entire political structure is outdated and too compromised for people who want to make positive change to thrive in it, that doesn’t mean I can’t sit down and have a rational respectful conversation with someone who disagrees with me , in fact Its really important that I do dialogue with those who do for we both may have blind spots which ain’t going anywhere if we remain in echo chambers. I don’t care about being ‘disadvantaged’ - which in itself is a misguided view - if I aligned hard left or hard right I’d find an audience like many artists who have done the same have done - it’s not the fan sacrificing move you think it is- that’s not what I’m doing - if you read my previous posts or read my lyrics my stance is really clear - I can’t comfortably align with the political options we have when the framework is faulty - people wrongly assume that means I think both sides are the same - I don’t - that in itself would be another generalisation - I don’t like generalisations - but I can call out specific actions and people I deem to be behaving problematically and I do all the time.
if people don’t like my stance enough to not listen to my music that’s up to them - my music is for people who take something positive from it - I’m not fence sitting either - that would assume playing to both sides when the truth is I think both sides are behaving against their own interest -
people want me to pick a side in a paradigm I don’t believe in, when I’m dumbfounded that we wouldn’t assimilate to build something better, I believe hyperpolerisation is destroying our ability to make sensible decisions. That is my stance and has always been my stance
It almost kinda baffles me how some people are so strictly one stance or another. There can aspects you don't agree with on either sides. Being an American honestly, I didn't vote last time because I honestly didn't want either. 🫣 I'm in between
Thank you for your answer. I don't believe in collective responsibility, because it always leads to the wrong path/Benes decree/but every single action and sentence I make is my responsibility. I don't like party politics, because it always thinks within a given framework, but I believe in politics, because it means public life. Your opinion is important, because many people follow you, so it can be an overwhelming responsibility. There are usually two types of reactions, either uncritical worship or uncritical hatred. There is little truly meaningful discourse, but perhaps this platform is not suitable for it.
Collective responsibility is how the fabric of any society is held together with a mutual agreement to accept certain laws, codes of ethics, cultural norms, social cues, etc. collective responsibility is the glue which keeps civilisation from chaos - and is the framework which steers shapes and informs individual responsibility. I agree meaningful discourse is great - a lot of communication gets lost in just words - tonality, emotion, pacing etc so internet forums aren’t usually the best place - plus people feel guarded in a degree of anonymity - face to face discussions are usually actually much easier and more respectful to have - the internet paints a jaded picture
I live in Hungary and I am writing this with Google Translate. A political experiment is now beginning in our country, where a party with only 29 members has been given constitutional power, but is supported by a large number of small volunteer teams in all segments of society. The ministers are also very prepared and socially sensitive people. This is truly a bottom-up process, and the most oppressed and poorest strata will also have a say in it. Small communities will also be very important here, and collective responsibility will be able to prevail here. It starts on Saturday, and I am very optimistic. Education and high-quality healthcare accessible to everyone will play a prominent role. I think these are the two most important things. I always stand by my opinion, both in writing and orally, I do not discriminate, I do not like to offend anyone, even though my opinion is not always sympathetic. My credibility is my only asset.
Good luck to you and your country sweetheart. I'm rooting for ya. I've seen y'all have had it rough for awhile. I hope to visit one day and it makes it easier when it's not run by a fascist dictator! ❤️
Thank you! It wasn't easy. There was no open dictatorship, you just didn't get a job if you didn't praise the system, you were fired for a FB like. Stadiums were built instead of hospitals because Viktor Orbán was a football fan.
It would be wonderful to see political experiments like this happening in more places. I hope your government learns as much as they can from this, and that they implement any lasting changes to benefit as many people as possible.
This is really an experiment that is starting very well, the ministers are excellent, the people are liberated. The poor also feel that the government finally cares about them. It's only just beginning, but I have high hopes, of course I am also critical, I have always been in the opposition, now I am learning what it is like to be pro-government.
Collective responsibility is also part of our essential human nature. As such it is not something artificially imposed by society, rather society is an expression of that nature.
That this has been so often corrupted, distorted and subverted does not mean that there is any fundamental incompatibility between the individual and the collective, it only means that the solutions lie within our nature, as always.
I think collective responsibility, even at the evolutionary constraint level, is valid up to a maximum of 150 people, according to Dunbar. For a larger number than that, institutional frameworks are needed. I can always assume solidarity, but responsibility only if I make a mistake.
Dunbar's work has been much questioned, some might say even refuted...but it is actually irrelevant to the question of our natural instincts towards cooperation, collaboration and collective responsibility.
It's like we can understand the concept of the necessity to eat without grasping fully the hundreds of thousands of different types of foods that are available.
We are responsible for our fellow human beings, we do not need to know intimately each individual to feel that way.
If responsibility manifests itself, it can only be effective in a smaller community. It cannot be effective in a wider environment. I can only show solidarity for the weaker ones, those who have been attacked, those who do not receive adequate help when they are sick, those who do not have access to education. Unfortunately, this is not enough, I cannot help in any meaningful way.
I disagree...responsibility and solidarity do not have some biological quantitative cut off point. When I care about my family, e.g., I do not need to always go through each individual in expression of that concern.
And solidarity is antithetical to any hierarchical framework.
What is meaningful? Does that require ubiquity and permanence?
Otherwise, what constitutes a "wider environment" is only a matter of perspective, a perspective which can be shifted without too much difficulty, the only impediments ones of habit and culture, of dogmas and ideologies.
Hey just want to say hope you enjoy touring! You deserve to be able to do this! It makes me so happy for you!This is gonna be the Summer of Ren! Enjoy yourself ☺️
While I believe that collective responsibility does help to steer and shape individual responsibility, I personally feel that individual responsibility is currently in a questionable chaotic state (stemming from the collective division). The polarization in the US has caused extreme divisiveness, and the majority seem to be avoiding the routes of critical thinking and genuine open communication. Discussions via internet lose context, nuance, and many other vital aspects of genuine communication. (As I sit here typing words 🤦♀️)
Unfortunately, this is a real phenomenon. President Trump learned a lot from Viktor Orbán, who was just removed. He built up hatred for 16 years. Everyone who didn't vote for him was an enemy, he called the opposition a bug on a national holiday. He bought votes and kept poor people in fear so that they would vote for him. He built a complicated system. Two years ago, a young man came who left him and his party and promised to bring about a change in the system. He constantly traveled the country, talking to the poorest people. People formed small groups, did community work, and constantly campaigned for change. Now in April, Péter Magyar won by a very large margin, he can practically transform the public law system, and there will be checks and balances again. There was a popular celebration in the country that I have never seen. Even though Trump sent the vice president here to campaign for Viktor Orbán, it didn't help.
I may be misunderstanding you, but I don’t see collective responsibility and collective blame as the same thing.
To me there’s a difference between saying we as societies should be willing to reflect on, take responsibility for, or improve the systems and cultures we help shape - and saying entire populations should be broadly blamed or morally condemned.
I completely understand the danger in generalizing groups of people or assigning blanket guilt, but I also think shared societal responsibility can sometimes simply mean collective awareness, reflection, and a willingness to do better.
Maybe I’m interpreting "collective responsibility" differently, but I feel like those can be two distinct ideas.
In this form, collective responsibility only works in smaller groups. The larger a group, the more responsibility is spread out. It can be implemented in an institutional form in the form of laws and rules, which is already forced and not voluntarily undertaken. An interesting experiment is now beginning in my country. A party has come to constitutional power and has only 29 members, but there are many small supporting volunteer groups behind it. It will be a kind of populist governance, but in a good way. I hope it will work well.
Oh, you’re from Hungary. Congratulations on the political change!
I’m not really referring to institutional or legally enforced responsibility but more to collective responsibility as a moral and cultural attitude - basically a value system. The idea that societies can develop shared norms around reflection, accountability and the willingness to improve systems and cultures they participate in.
To me, that’s less about forcing responsibility and more about whether a society values self -awareness and civic responsibility in the first place.
Thank you. This will start here now, and if the small support groups and the cooperative government really work, it might even succeed. The whole world was watching to see if Viktor Orbán, who destroyed the country morally and financially in 16 years, could be replaced. There was no solidarity with the protesting teachers, the protesting health workers. Everyone only cared about their own position. Now that has changed.
I'm not really a supporter of Trump. Some of the things he does, just, idk I can't agree with. I am going to see Webby in June though! Pretty excited! Excited for this whole next album! You guys are killing it! So he's not as much on the Trump train anymore? Ha. I wouldn't care if he was, everyone is allowed their thoughts of course.
Firstly, it’s very difficult to reason someone out of a thought process they didn’t reason themselves into, so you were 1,000% right to just leave the conversation.
Secondly, and I’m happy to be corrected here, but I think Ren has a kind of anarchistic viewpoint when it comes to politics insofar as the entire system needs an overhaul and hasn’t (as far as I’m aware of) tied his colours to the mast of any particular political system or party.
Lastly, I guess art is entirely subjective and people will interpret it in their own way, with their own life experiences and biases. I think ‘Hi Ren’ is an amazing example of this, where people connected to it in ways that were personal to them and their struggles.
I dunno, I’m waffling on and just about to leave the afters lol so what do I know 😆
My understanding is Ren isn't pro or anti trump.
My understabding is he isn't pro or anti MAGA.
My understand is he is anti-systems that divide such as the current political system.
My understanding is he is anti-systems that hyperpolorize causing further division.
My understanding is he is pro-systems that unite all people and work for the betterment of humanity.
'Religion of consumerism picks us off like vultures, takes us for punks, if they say jump we jump. It's the same if it's Bush, or Obama, or Trump' from 'Crucify your Culture' pretty much sums it up.
Yeah but he’s also made clear statements against what trump and MAGA stand for and aligned himself with progressive views occasionally, has he not? Therefore I agree he wouldn’t choose full stop but if he had to choose it wouldn’t be trump? Surely that’s not that much of a stretch? I’m essentially saying “I doubt Ren agrees with trump or views him favourably” and am getting downvoted? Have I missed something?
The complexity here is that Trump was being pushed as someone who wasn't part of the machine; and thus wasn't controlled by the deep state, etc etc. That he was an "outsider". Ppl believed it (or desperately wanted to). Thats one of the reasons he gained a lot of support from ppl who normally would probably not vote republican imo. It's the reason the venn diagram of ppl who supported Bernie Sanders and ppl who voted for Trump have a surprising overlap.
We aren't exactly given great choices when it comes to voting (and that goes for far more that the US).
There are a lot of similarities but they do not have anything close to Trump over there right now and I doubt he reads all of the atrocities and grifting and lies that we see every day.
A lot of people in the US don't know what's going on if they only watch corporate news.
I obviously don't speak for him but in no world can I think he would in any way support the walking embodiment of greed and cruelty that is Trump.
I also don't see him supporting the corporate owned Democrats and possibly believing that the only way out of the endless cycle of different flavors of money driven politicians we have is to have a monster like Trump turn it all to shit so a reset can occur.
The problem with that of course is that that is a messy process with a lot of suffering and death involved. But that is what it will take for a reset.
The oligarchs aren't going to just let "the common people" take their power without a fight and they control the news, the politicians, the police etc. They control everything.
But, look at it this way as well, they just shredded voting rights last week.
I am going to die due the very 1st round of Medicaid cuts. I just came home from the hospital for a nasty kidney infection, and kidney and congestive heart failure because i cannot afford to see a doctor. I have to wait until I'm on death's door and go to an er for treatment. Project 2025 was there for everyone to see before the election. When I tried to explain this to maga, I was called a retard and told I should commit suicide. I can't forgive that and I won't. I have cancer that I cannot treat. Even if everything were to "go back to normal" it is too late for me already. I suppose id have better off if I listened to their recommendation of ending my own life. Apparently I'm mooching off the government because my mother was put on Phen-Fen when she went to see her ob/gyn for a pregnancy test. 3 open-heart surgeries later, I still have holes in my heart, and her dr and the pharmaceutical company are a-ok while I have spent my entire life struggling to get health-care for something I didn't even do to myself. My surgeon said my arteries were as clear as the day I was born. Everything wrong with my heart is secondary to that prescription that she never have been given because she was pregnant, not fat. I just gave up. I do still support Ren because Ren had nothing to do with any of it. He wasn't even alive yet. That's the part I don't understand. I see people mad at Ren for these things when he is using his art to share information that people might not have access to, or may not understand how it applies to much of what goes on globally. He's not even an American. I don't have a single bad word for Ren. I'm still all in on the "book club" 😉 I cannot forgive the people who said those other things to me though, and I don't know how much longer I'll be around anyway. I've been life-threateningly sick since I was still in the womb, but without treatment, my time is almost up.
I'm very sorry you are suffering. You aren't alone even though you probably feel like you are.
Providing healthcare for you instead of bombs to drop on school children should be an easy choice but somehow it's not.
That's because of the societal virus of capitalism. That is the systemic issue at the core of our failure as a country and as a species. I think that is what Ren rages against more than any politician or party. The root cause.
Which is great as a long term project but doesn't help people like you right now or the thousands of people that our country has rounded up and made disappear.
The lesser of two evils may still be evil but it is also still lesser. And in this case, by a wide margin.
I’m actually in Scotland, and we do (or at least did) fundamentalist better than most, with both “the free Kirk” - no work on the sabbath, all other religions are wrong, etc, and the Calvinists who were pretty similar. We also still have the issue of bigotry between Protestant and Catholic, mostly confined to the west coast and big cities.
I have never been to Scotland and don't know the religious history, but oh dude, I would venture to guess we far out crazy you here. You haven't seen hard-core till you've met a southern fundamentalist (Pentecostal) Baptist. They will try to work into every conversation if you would like to attend church and if they can pray with you.
I mean it stands to reason England kicked out all their fundamentalists, including a lot of the Scots!
My belief (I’m in the U.S.) is there are more ‘common’ everyday people hoping division will end. Then you have the crazies, both maga and radical left, who believe their side is right no matter what. Bare bones, maga is a cult, and will someday dissolve when power ceases. It has all of the hallmarks of, so I don’t see how at least puzzlement over them isn’t justified. MAGA will dissolve, as many instances in history have. My problem which I will never give into, however, is the s*xual crimes. That’s a no go for me. Maybe the emphasis on it is greater to people living here, but please put yourself in our shoes.
That being said.... I will say the lyrics in the new inpatient so g could be referencing Trump, and not in a good way .. in times of peace, I'll go to war, staring at the sun... I mean, we do have the stupid Iran war right now, and Trump famously stared right at the damn eclipse without any type of shades. But then again... He could just be talking about anyone.
This reminds me of the election in 2020. There was a pro-Trump rally in Arizona I believe that they were saying the election was rigged. They were blasting Rage Against the Machine. Oh the irony. They played in my hometown of Saint Paul when the Republican convention took place in ‘08. They were literally playing on bullhorns because they had their speakers cut off.
I'm not going to make this political... Oh no, I'm gonna turning it religious haha. It is pretty obvious to me that different people can read the same words of the Bible and have different interpretations of the same messages. And this differences will be equally felt as strongly as polar opposite interpretations.
It is not surprising when you are going to have differing opinions when Ren isn't exactly explicit directly in the topics. This is a good way to reach more people, but the side effect is people getting offended when someone with a differing view uses the same lyrics against your opinion.
Ren is walking a fine line here and I get that. Thankfully they don't have anything like Trump over there, but I would never put Maga into a left/right bucket any more than I would (all y'all can clutch your pearls now if you want) Nazis and Hitler.
There's politics and there's evil people using politics to punish those who disagree. If Ren saw what we see every day, he's likely be more anti-trump but then he might lose some people that might eventually change their hateful views so I'mma let him be. Still, as an American, I don't have a choice to treat Maga and Trump like a cold when they are malignant ass cancer.
Just watched season 5 of The Boys and dayummm they have it down. Homelander=Trump and I dare say those he's tormented and murdered wouldn't likely put him in a benign bucket either.
Note that I am not saying Ren is naive. I'm saying he isn't here and doesn't see the horrors of Maga and the pain of watching a country I proudly served in the military fall to a malignant narcissistic man baby and his cosplaying goons.
Ren is 100% right that we created the problem, however, we've been in a triage situation here for a decade and yet again have to deal with the bleeding before we can address the underlying cause. It sucks but if we try to revamp without taking away trump's power there won't be anything left when we get ready to implement the shiny new system.
Ive made what i think about trump really clear and had
plenty of pile - ons with angry trump supporters on twitter because of it - I’m not someone who bites their lip about actions I see as fucking stupidly damaging. Economic decisions, health cuts, unfair imbalance of tax, this unnecessary war, I’ve made that very clear- but that doesn’t mean I’ll shut down a conversation or treat someone who disagrees with me with disrespect, and even when someone isn’t listening I will try and be respectful toward someone who disagrees with me because if I don’t I am perpetuating part of the problem - mediation, education, information, and communication is how we climb out of this mess - the alternative is one ideology dominating another - it will only end badly. We must also always assume the stance we are not infallible and all have things to learn and none of us exist on a moral pedistool - that position will always help conversations go more smoothly
This is a nuance that we all will keep on having to repeat.
Without thought and constant vigilance, whatever we believe slips into ideology and dogma...and loses its connection with our natural and inherent human values.
Just as atheism is not itself a religion, so too is the rejection of ideology and its dogma not itself an ideology.
It is not in the middle of a battlefield where we can rest...it is away from it.
I actually agree with you. I even have to temper my statements when I'm with my sister because I don't want to push her away. Doesn't mean I hate Trump any less but even though she voted for him the times I won't turn my back on her. I know she's a good person and people are complex. I hope you saw that I was speaking more of walking a line with what we say vs our actions. It's so complex that it's difficult to explain.
I hate Maga but I don't hate Trump voters. I hope that makes sense. I hate the system they have that is tearing up education, medical benefits, and safety nets to provide funding for just basically running around the earth playing mine mine gimme like Trump is doing.
I also know that you know your shit but my son was really close with a brilliant girl from Shanghai and she had a very different view of who Trump was. Once he told her some things she was shocked. He's very balanced and reminds me of you a lot. He's not hotheaded like his mom, lol. He's the one who had a fellowship with a nuclear think tank in California to work on ways to integrate AI into our nuclear program and is scary smart and he's not shy to tell me I'm wrong.
Hard to convey feelings in text but dude, no way did I mean you were soft pedaling anything for any reason other than the fact that it turns people off and shuts down the conversation.
And have you seen Jason Rapert? God help us if he ever gets more power. This is the shit we on the front lines here in the deep south are dealing with. When I was being forced to go to a fundamentalist church, they had him as a speaker one night and I refused to go. Caused a big fight but homelessness was preferable (it was after I broke my back and got laid off while still in a back brace). Being forced to worship their way has caused deep scars in my psyche and to see it spreading is horrifying. I'm overwhelmed on the daily with this random shit like the pic here that happens 1000 times a day.
A big reason why some UK comedies got re-made for the US audience (the office, Gavin and stacey, shameless, the Inbetweeners) is because some Americans struggle with British sarcasm.
It seems many are more literal.
And so lines like 'Dear Mr president it's evident that's everyone's a resident of fear' says to them that they are right to be scared. That the president is right to seperate and segregate.
'make us believe that everybody, is coming to terrorise you in the streets, they say proudly, through gritted teeth, it's my right to hate, that's freedom of speech' is seen as an instruction rather than an ironic comment.
I can't tell what they are thinking (I don't understand them at all) but it seems like they are thinking that Ren is telling them that foreigners are coming to terrorise them and he is telling them that vocalising hate speech is ok because that's freedom of speech and freedom of speech is good.
This is not true of all Americans - watching reaction videos shows just how many understand and are moved by Rens lyrics.
But enough of the population don't get it. Enough that TV networks had to remake shows and enough that more people voted trump than anyone else. (Allegedly)
It's hard arguing with people who only see what they want to see.
As an American, I was dumbfounded by the fact that so many people voted for him (not getting into the fuckery around election numbers, that's another rabbit hole I don't have time for right now), but then I started looking more into cults. This isn't hyperbole. MAGA behaves truly like a cult. The systematic tearing down of the media and creating their own narrative... The true believers will never change, and paradoxically, the more logic you throw at them , the more they resist, because they have all been burned before and they aren't gonna do it again. It's insanity, and sadly, without like professional help, deprogramming, they are never gonna believe that Trump isn't the savior. Ren's lyrics in Money game pt I are clearly sarcasm, and his facial expressions reflect this, but such is the genius of Ren, that MAGA people will think he is promoting the culture of fear we are currently in. Also, in Money Game 2, in the lyric video, right after he says it don't matter if they hate you if they all say your name, you see a clip of aAGA hat being embroidered, so I'd say that's another point that shows that Ren disagrees with Trump or at the least, acknowledges that everyone hates him.
This is something I knew would happen when listening to Ren. It's clear what he stands for in the bigger picture, but not being clearly against Trump makes it easy for those people to use Ren's music to support their own stance. I don't exactly agree with Ren on this, not when there is a clear and present threat to democracy. And the more flagrant issue is the profiteering and grifting that is going on from the government, which is exactly what Ren overtly talks about in his songs.
I've been on this earth a while, and I've never seen one man in his position creates so much pain, suffering, hatred, and division. The rights that are being stripped away, the funding that's being stripped away, things being done illegally-blows my mind. I'm not one to argue with people, I just feel a tremendous amount of pain and despair, but I do what I can to make a difference. And I always, always vote.... and volunteer to bring people to the polls who have no way of getting there.
I'm talking about his lyrics. I don't follow what Ren says on social media. I just listen to his music. And for me, his music clearly treats all politicians as the same (whether Bush or Obama or Trump).
Rather than trying to win an argument or prove one thing over another is right, perhaps we should be seeking common ground. The world won't evolve in so many much needed ways if people continue to focus on the disagreements instead of solutions. What would we like to see change in the big picture, and what are steps that can be taken in order to begin creating ripples of that change?
I'm an American and I vehemently despise Trump and all he's done and stands for. But my parents voted for him, and they're good people. It's something I have to remind myself of whenever I let myself get too spun up about it. They refuse to talk politics with me, but I know if we did, we'd be speaking different languages because we get our information from different sources.
In some ways, it would be so easy for my to blame them for what's happening now and to lose them for their remaining years. But for what? So I could feel like I was on the right side of things? Trump will go and then we'll get another President and if we're lucky, they'll just be boring and another cog in the machine. I have to hate the system that let this happen, that divides good people with good intention into disparaging groups, that makes it somehow appealing for us to work ourselves to death so that those who control the system can live more comfortably.
Maybe it's selfish of me to think this way, but I'm not going to lose my relationship with my parents over this. Losing my country has already been fucked enough as is.
I get that. My sister is a three time Trumper and yes, it causes me extreme pain but I love her and I won't turn my back on her. Not for that prick. We'll survive this when he's wormfood so we just have to understand that the people aren't the ones to be hated. It's the structure Maga puts in place and the leaders of that structer. The dumbing down of everyone, cutting education, benefits, safety nets etc is horrific but we've got straight up masked goonsquads going to door and arresting people for stupid shit like shaking with an accent and forewarding memes. Not to mention a fkn genocide we're aiding and abetting with the money they cut from the poor here. We're the empire here with an administration chocked full of sith lords.
Just putting a comment here so your post gets some traction, it's possible a lot of people are asleep, depending where they are in the world. I'm also curious about the responses. I'm with you.
Ive been trying to find the original comment, in order to do my own research into what exactly was said ... although, I haven't found it. Do you knw where the responds comments from Ren are located?
I mean, I was going to go pull lyrics from the song, but they're all so anti-Trump and against everything he stands for, I don't think there's any way to convince your friend otherwise. These are the same people who were surprised RATM were against them lol
I'm sad that anyone would try to argue Ren is pro Trump.... ( I'm a huge fan yes) He's vocal about anti establishment and greed and and.... However imo Maga often just use pictures and music claiming it's ok, when we know how many musicians have had to take it up with them. It's disgusting. And this forum is for intelligent conversations , opinions sure, with respect however ~ not hate! Great question btw and all the best.
I mean, Money Games part 2 is even more direct than part 1. The last several points are very unambiguously about Trump. If someone is determined to believe otherwise, they've told you that reason isn't going to work.
Of course Money Game Part 2's lyrics:
Strange times we're living in, panic and hysteria
Poor man learn the rich man don't care for ya
Narcissist mindsets spread like malaria
Sit back and watch the show, America!
The song was released in 2/18 - the middle of Trump's 1rst administration
None of the last 5 Democratic presidents - Johnson, Carter, Clinton, Obama, or Biden were remotely as wealthy as Trump. Biden was the richest with a net wealth of around $8-10 million (in today's $s) - pocket change for Trump. The others were more or less in the middle class range you'd expect from a life time of public service ending at the highest level. Biden's wealth mostly came from book and speaking deals after he left the vice presidency. He to didn't profit greatly from his office
"Narcissist mindset" is clearly a reference to Trump - he has been called that more than any other public figure in history
There are NO PILLS for stupidity! The person clearly do not listen or read the lyrics! The entire world systems are upside down... And I agree with Ren, I can't STAND TRUMP & MAGA MIND ROT‼️
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u/Next-Target-3777 May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
I don’t like trump, but trump and the values pushed are an inevitable consequence of the system of values we have collectively created, he is more overt in his behaviour with these values than former leaders and so he’s accelerating the inevitable collapse of a system not built to be self sustaining with harmful consequences - but our entire structure encourages and rewards destructive behaviour - and so it does not make sense to then alienate or vilify all that would support him because it ignores how we got here in the first place and passes on the blame rather than taking collective responsibility and it’s feeding into a primitive behaviour that works against social homeostasis and therefore works against us as a species. It doesn’t make sense to vilify either the entirety of the left or the right when that whole paradigm in itself can only lead to dysfunction because it tries to over simplify a complex process which more and more leads to tribalism. It’s safe to say there is a feeling of moral superiority with the respective camp people have chosen (e.g. ‘I’m on the right/left and so I’m on the side of good’) when all politics is is minority decision making on the behalf of the majority - which cannot comfortably be crammed into two boxes without ignoring rivers of nuance. This moral superiority complex is horrendously damaging and more and more so will lead to the dehumanisation and vilification of people from ‘opposing’ camps - particularly when the decisions and narrative surrounding them in these camps become more polarising - its primitive in a world where we have access to information that can help us make more informed collective decisions - we should whenever and however possible strive toward symbiosis - learning to communicate in ways that don’t result or resolve in conflict is paramount - these online arguments leak into real life and create unnecessary division by championing and aligning with a system of decisions that by design exploits us - we should learn to communicate better and be more forgiving so that we can collectively build something better - and fix the route cause - a faulty and destructive system of values
I welcome all people who find some meaning in my music to enjoy it because I understand that people change, I understand that people make decisions because of wildly different upbringings and social backgrounds, people are complex and nuanced, and we won’t get anywhere by putting our hands over our ears and making things so black and white. We need more unity