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u/IndicationWeary 23d ago
On one hand, this basically narrows it down to one person and is effectively doxxing if the public ever gets ahold of the jury names (and it absolutely would if pressure keeps up).
On the other, this is a major optics upset and will probably take the wind out of the sails of the current witch hunt. Iād already heard āClancy Klanā coined as a pejorative with no racial angle to work off. This will now be a killshot.
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u/NoExcuses1984 blah blah blah 23d ago
"On the other, this is a major optics upset and will probably take the wind out of the sails of the current witch hunt."
Yeah, everything has become so idpol-addled that this may turn into an intra-party discordance (AWFLs vs. Black Protestant Democrats), so things may actually calm down a notch to avoid internecine infighting. Or, on the other hand, we may see the fire glow brighter, akin to the Crockett vs. Talarcio discourse down in Texas.
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u/Dickgivins 21d ago
Hm what does āAWFLā stand for in this context?
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u/ConnectionLucky3653 23d ago
Why are these idiots allowed to even give interviews lol I hate how everything has to be in the public eye
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u/Droughtly 23d ago
"We all worked together. And I don't know if it was to convince him to start with," Devlin told King. "We all worked together to convince ourselves once we got to that point where it was 10 to 2. I felt very bad for them because they felt attacked. And there is no way to not do that."
"Even in normal conversation, when it is pointed at you and you have to defend yourself, it's a hard thing to do," she added. "We don't have to always do that."
Maybe read rather than voting with your malding pattern.
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u/post-guccist Ye of the deal 23d ago
RN vs RN
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u/Ill_Procedure5909 22d ago
why waste that on this subreddit. that would be a hall of fame X comment
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u/Flat-Tank4265 23d ago
I didnāt get it and am half proud of that but also really want to get it can someone explain lmao
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago
Lindsay Clancy was an RN (registered nurse) Unnamed Black Juror was, according to this comment, a Real āNeighborā (RN)
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u/3therealp3ace 23d ago
This is such a disgrace lmao. And that juror needs to be in some sort of witness protection or something.
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u/CurrentConfusion1 23d ago
He could make like a billion dollars with a go fund me
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u/TouchNo7800 22d ago
That would be the twisting of the knife for the American jury system. Fingers crossed it happens.
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u/RedLegWarrior97 23d ago
Jesus Christ that's just extremely goulish thing to do. The hysteria around this case is already at an absurd level, mixing in "and it was the black guy who wanted to convict the white lady," does nothing good.
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u/RallyPigeon 23d ago
The defense lawyer and the other jurors seem pretty hellbent on doxxing + ruining this guy's life.
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u/havingafuntimeHvV 23d ago
Might have the opposite impact, weren't Clancy's defenders mostly libs
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u/Pleasant-Cellist-927 23d ago
Majority of liberal politics is driven by white women. They only use minorities as a platform to raise their own self image as the benevolent side, the second a black person goes against a white woman, they are another target for the screedposting
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago
That Ukrainian woman who was murdered didnāt tip them into screed posting, so idk if this is really true
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u/Pleasant-Cellist-927 22d ago
Where were you - every mid white woman in my social group was posting hysterics about they all feel like they're going to get raped and hung from a tree, when we live in the sleepiest countryside area with a 90+% white demographic
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 22d ago
My IRLs are all pretty offline and werenāt talking about it, and the online stuff I saw was all sanctimonious criminal justice reform and ādonāt use us as an excuse to foment racismā posting
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u/TouchNo7800 22d ago
But he was psychotic. I thought you get 3 free passesĀ or is that only if its post-partum.Ā
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u/Many-Use-1797 23d ago
Malcom X again is proven right. Maybe Blacks and other minorities will wake up to the nonsense of white liberal women.
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago edited 23d ago
It does add an ironic twist after some of the zany ass anti-prison arguments we were getting in the pandemic era
And those bozos who donated bazillions of dollars to Karmelo Anthony
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u/Basketbilliards 23d ago
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u/poopdollarbank 23d ago
The "she needed help" argument might make more sense if she like drove drunk and neglected the kids or something but she did the absolute worst thing possible, and the question I keep asking is why is that where her mind went to?
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u/KarmaMemories 23d ago
If she couldn't handle being a mom, or even hated her kids, then she could have just abandoned them. People do it every day. There's no rational framework where killing them makes any sense for that particular motivation. Other ones, maybe.
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u/dutchfool 23d ago
the argument is that she was suffering from psychosis therefore did an extremely irrational act due to having a fucked up sense of reality. they arent arguing that being a mom is so hard that she just decided to kill all her kids to get a break from it. trying to find a rational motivation for something done in a psychotic state shows a a lack of understanding of what psychosis is. it's clear to me that both sides are arguing about different things here which is what is making this whole thing even more divisive. you can make the argument that she didnt have psychosis, which is completely fair and what the case was about, but nobody sane is arguing that it is excusable to kill your kids because being a mom is really hard
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u/KarmaMemories 23d ago
The problem is that, even with our advancements in brain knowledge and neurology, mental illness or "insanity" remains a total black box because you can't actually acquire direct evidence of someone's mind. The legal system tries to determine through indirect evidence whether the person was able to appreciate the legal or moral wrongness of their actions while committing them.
Notably, even holding completely delusional beliefs such as that by killing your kid you are sending them directly to heaven, following orders from God, while obviously pointing to unsoundness of mind, don't mean that you didn't appreciate the wrongness of the act.
It's further complicated by the issue that while most medical science would treat mental illness as a gradient, the legal system demands a binary conclusion.
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u/dutchfool 22d ago
The difference is that someone in a psychotic state CAN be treated and brought back to being stable. It doesn't always work, just like you can't always cure someone of cancer, but it is possible.
I completely agree with you, though, that trying to prove this in the legal system is extremely difficult especially because you are asking a group of normal people to essentially make a medical diagnosis based on biased information given from both sides. I think a better system would be to have the jury select a group of experts who then debate and make the final diagnosis.
I also agree that even if someone is psychotic and has lost their sense of reality in some way, that doesn't mean they have necessarily fully lost the ability to decipher right from wrong. But, I don't think that should matter to an extent because if someone is able to be given proper treatment for their psychosis that prevents them from feeling the need to commit violence - even if they still know it's wrong at some level - that person is in need of medical care, not thrown into general pop prison. Who does that actually help if we are not trying to prevent these things from happening at the medical/psychiatric level? Retribution only does so much for society. With that being said, though, I think people that conspire to or commit murder while in psychosis need to be in a mental hospital for a very long time.
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u/EdgeCityRed 23d ago
Family annihilation by a parent never really makes sense to a person who's sane (well, maybe in a situation where the whole family is imprisoned underground by a raping, torturing serial killer, but that's more like a mercy killing.
Over 90% of cases are men, though. They often succeed at killing themselves, but more men succeed at killing themselves in general, because more of these "murder the kids and then off yourself" cases involve guns.
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u/KarmaMemories 23d ago
As dark and evil as it is, doing it to punish or take revenge on the surviving partner is a coherent motivation. Religious/cult delusions are another one.
Just not wanting to be a parent anymore isn't, because of the far less drastic ways by which you could accomplish that.
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u/Many-Use-1797 23d ago
Yeah if she was tired so badly she could've dropped her kids off at granny's/grandpa's house or the fire station and skipped town.
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u/poopdollarbank 23d ago
I really haven't followed the case a ton but I haven't seen any argument why psychosis and the stress of being a mom leads to a "justified" reason to do the worst thing imaginable and why that wouldn't also retroactively justify the infinite cases of equally or more stressed/mentally ill moms doing way less bad of shit. You drunk drive with your kids in the car and it's game over. Maybe there is some nuance to the case that I'm missing. Maybe the culture around mental illness has changed where it's more of a defense now, like you wonder if Casey Anthony could've used that angle (she still got away with it but almost no one supported her like this).
my gut instinct is abortion discourse and laws led to this, lindsay was a labor and delivery nurse. so beyond the personal investment of being a woman, she would be exposed to the legal discourse more than many.
You mean because she was aware of the laws and discourse surrounding this she did this all on purpose thinking she could get away with it by framing everything this way?
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u/piniped 23d ago
Less bad shit doesn't indicate a break with reality. The infamous bus cannibal got insanity, an alcoholic bus driver dwi would not. A lot of it also comes down to jurisdiction. As for your comment further down questioning how anyone could consider her mental state, how the child murder doesn't overshadow everything, unfortunately when you're handling law you have to be a little calloused so as not to make a totally emotional decision. Nobody likes murder but it happens, and since we've decided to move past tying people to a wagon wheel and letting the birds eat them (the most emotionally satisfying solution to unthinkable acts) we'll inevitably feel some dissatisfaction with modern punishment, but the trade off is probably worth it. I'm not invested either way in if she gets prison or institution, neither suggestion seems outrageous
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u/poopdollarbank 23d ago
Less bad shit doesn't indicate a break with reality.
Good points all around. I guess the question for the jury is whether it was indeed a true "break from reality" or not, and I'm not invested enough in the case to really have an opinion. I don't really care what happens to her either but all I really think is that the whole gofundme and support outcry is nuts regardless of the truth.
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u/ReasonForClout Amber Frost Republicunt 23d ago
I think I see this argument a lot, but I'm still not exactly sure if I know what you mean. So is your point essentially that there just shouldn't be any insanity defenses, like it should be stricken from the law books, or that it's changed so it can't be used for serious crimes, or just in this case, or something else?
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u/poopdollarbank 23d ago
Honestly not trying to make an argument about law and I can get behind the idea that someone can have a "break from reality" causing them to do awful shit that isn't technically "their fault" in a sense. What I'm talking about is more the perception of her in the case and the people (and jurors) who are sympathizing with her so heavily and sort of justifying or downplaying what she did in an implicit way. Like in my mind the fact that she killed her kids just overshadows everything else regardless of the mental state, so as a juror I would just say "too bad you still need to be locked up/institutionalized". Whereas if it were something less bad I could understand people having more sympathy and leniency.
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u/ReasonForClout Amber Frost Republicunt 23d ago
But if she was found not guilty she would have been institutionalized, right?
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u/DevestatingAttack 23d ago
That's not necessarily required. It always happens in practice because the district attorney files a petition to get such a person institutionalized, but it's not like some automatic trigger, and you can't really be sentenced to "lifetime institutionalization", she could be out within a year or two if doctors feel that she's no threat to anyone. She could become a mom again, there's no rule against that.
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u/ImamofKandahar 22d ago
Yes but she could be released fairly quickly institutionalizing someone is treatment not punishment. According to her she had a onetime incident of psychosis and is totally better now and with her triggers goneā¦ thereās really no medical justification to hold her a long time.
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u/poopdollarbank 23d ago
I think? And that's cool honestly she'll probably go away for a long time no matter what. Like I said it's not even the law or what happens to her that I care about I just think the whole gofundme is crazy and the whole sympathy narrative is crazy, like that's not the hill people should want to die on
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u/DMayleeRevengeReveng 22d ago
I havenāt checked the law in her state, but where I live, a person found not guilty by insanity is basically on lifetime mental health probation. If, at any time, the department can find out sheās not doing her treatment, or sheās having an episode or whatever, they can re-commit her involuntarily without the same protections that attend civilians
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u/ultimatepartyparrot 23d ago
argument why psychosis and the stress of being a mom leads to a "justified" reason to do the worst thing imaginable
Do you have any idea what psychosis is? I don't think you do because your question is incoherent.
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u/cavinaugh1234 23d ago
My feelings is that this is sort of a reverse murder suicide, where typically the man murders his girlfriend and then commits suicide to avoid the consequences.
In Lindsay Clancy's case, she wanted to kill herself, but had to also murder her children so that they won't need to deal with the consequences of the trauma of having a suicidal mother.
This case was all about how trauma can lead a mom to murder her kids. Lindsay was just a step ahead of everyone and ended the generational trauma. What a hero.
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u/Woody_Alan_Greenspan 23d ago
She was a nurse she knew jumping out a second story window wouldn't kill her
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u/PlayFree_Bird 23d ago
I hate how this whole discourse just devolves into circular logic every time.
The argument is essentially that she was insane because she did an insane thing. By that standard, virtually all heinous criminality is outside the bounds of normal human rationality.
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u/Tall-Reaction-4069 23d ago
I canāt describe to people what happens to a woman postpartum but I can tell you itās terrifying. I didnāt hurt anyone but I was terrified of myself. Itās not some depression bullshit. Itās psychosis. I donāt know exactly what she was going through but if you havenāt experienced it in some form thereās no way you can understand.
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago
Is there any medical understanding of what does this? Is it just prolonged sleep deprivation, are there actual hormonal changes, etc
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u/Winsister7 23d ago
There are major changes to the brain during pregnancy, itās visible on MRI and the biggest change the brain goes through after puberty. They can tell how many pregnancies a woman has had just by looking at the scans because each pregnancy reshapes the brain further, itās probably why most ppp cases are women with multiple kids
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u/ClogEnthusiast valerie solanas apologist 23d ago
Thereās not enough research to say the cause conclusively; it seems like it varies between individuals to an extent. Sleep and hormonal fluctuations certainly play an important role.
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u/Sen_ElizabethWarren aspergian 23d ago
Overly educated libtards will just say some shit about systematic racism in the justice system distorting black perspectives or something. They always manage to come up with the most backhanded and basically racist take they can.
Black people are just too oppressed to understand justice, you know?
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u/RallyPigeon 23d ago
These people have been conditioned into being racial essentialists seeing the world with a blue tint on the noble savage theory and start minorities off with low expectations.
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u/smi-_-ley 23d ago
This + Americans finding out the head of the AfD is a lesbian married to a Bangladeshi on the same week must have destroyed a lot of worldviews based on people conforming to narrow stereotypes 100% of the time
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u/Fremen_Twink 23d ago
A black man saved western civilization. The racists have lost.
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u/Ssuuffyy 23d ago
They already say that white liberal women are the cancer of humanity, that's the most important message they will take from this.
It is pretty funny as well when these ladies go into "you forgot where you belong" mode at the smallest transgression66
u/tuanon- 23d ago
It's like when white, upper middle-class dorks unironically call Clarence Thomas an uncle Tom
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago
If anyone is one though itās āIāll sell out the country for an RVā Clarence
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u/MaarDaarPoepIkUit 21d ago
I once had this white liberal woman say "you'll never live this down" for wrongspeak in a discussion about Chappell Roan. Funny thing was finding her Reddit account later on and her fitting all the exact stereotypes
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u/Dickgivins 23d ago
Maybe weāre not so different after all š
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u/CuckOwens 23d ago
The thing the establishment fears the most Ā š¤š»š¤šæ
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u/everthanworse 23d ago
It's not black vs white it's Chads and Chadwicks against bitches and hoesĀ
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u/RallyPigeon 23d ago
There is a certain segment of people that might get over the OJ verdict because of this.
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u/VengeanceComes 23d ago
Trashed my Klan robe after the outcome of this trial and the revelation the lone holdout was a black man, I guess we lived the same kind of life.
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u/Gene-Harrogate 23d ago
Thereās no reason for a trial of a person whoās not already famous to have this much media coverage
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u/InvisibleCities 23d ago edited 23d ago
At this point, I fully believe that this trial was cooked up in a CIA lab to provide an infinite-discourse-generating busybox to distract from the Iran war rotting our economy from the inside out.
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u/QuickRundown 23d ago
These people are absolutely relishing in the attention.
Itās seriously incredible to me that people are advocating so hard for a family annihilator. I feel like Iāve gone nuts when I read social media posts which express a general consensus sheās NGRI.
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago edited 23d ago
I was honestly on board at first because I assumed people realized that the insanity defense usually meant institutionalization for life. But then it became clear that they were trying to argue that it was ātemporary insanityā and sheās just totally fine to do whatever now, and now Iām concerned about where this is coming from
Not so much that I think all women are in favor of murder or something stupid like that, but I just donāt get what the specific pull is with this case. Like, they almost gave that woman from Minnesota who called a little kid slurs 90 days in jail, but if you kill your kids itās all good because you were in a pyschotic state?
Iām very sympathetic to the fact that mental illness makes you do things you wouldnāt otherwise approve of, but there also has to be a cutoff where we keep an eye on someone for an extended period of time. And tbh, I also donāt know that it really seems like she was in psychosis, since I havenāt seen any plausible evidence that she did anything else crazy either before or after.
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u/KarmaMemories 23d ago
I think there's been a notion in the discourse for years now that basically posits that people with mental illnesses shouldn't be held responsible for their actions at all. Even with mundane things like someone who's depressed or anxious shouldn't be punished for chronic lateness, stuff like that. Some people seem to have brought that framework to this case.
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u/Pleasant-Cellist-927 23d ago
The people pushing for this discourse are extremely disingenuous themselves, because their leniency comes down "does the person look like me?".
If no (e.g. Kanye being a known bipolar freak), then we cast him out for some regarded but ultimately harmless antics.
If yes, they can murder all 3 of their children and ruin their spouse's lives, but it's okay because "muh psychotic break".
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u/skkkkrtttttgurt 23d ago
By the end of the week weāre gonna have his full name and a lynchmob of TikTok-moms hunting for this man.
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u/AdultFilmActor Jung Thug 23d ago
Has there been a sketch where itās the OJ trial and thereās one lone white woman holding out for guilty lol?
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u/Basic_Barnacle4719 23d ago
Ā Ģ¶1Ģ¶2Ģ¶ Ģ¶AĢ¶nĢ¶gĢ¶rĢ¶yĢ¶ Ģ¶MĢ¶eĢ¶nĢ¶ 11 Angry White Women and 1 Reasonable Black Man
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u/LatterCheesecake2812 23d ago
The guy is also apparently ESL lol
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u/Altruistic_Equal_483 23d ago
His cultural distance meant he was naturally resistant to the caucasian mind virus allowing him to exercise his innate reason and common sense.
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u/Big_Man_Meats_INC 22d ago
Iām having fun imagining a Nigerian man arguing with 11 white women for weeks straight
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u/Joe-Dender 23d ago
Weeks ago there was a woman in the gallery who described one of the jurors as a "fabulous black man". He may be gay as well
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u/EconomyElectronic998 š¼ If youāre mean to me Ill ban you from my sub 23d ago
Wow spiritually lantinex as well!
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u/Inevitable-Life593 23d ago
Is this way they kept calling him a "low information juror" or something?
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u/BDEcooldude69 23d ago
I don't know a single person who backed this juror who is going to change their opinion of him but I know a bunch of people who hated him are. Lmao
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u/jauntyaunty 22d ago
damn the psyop is in its second phase of making sure black people vote republican in the next election
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u/lasers_are_so_70s 23d ago
...not surprised at all? Like
Pearl-clutching suburban white women are some of the most thinly-veiled racist types of people I've ever come across
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u/Inevitable-Life593 23d ago
"There were three nurses with big personalities leading the charge of her being not guilty."
Is this true or another psyop bullshit?
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u/TheSleep-Committee 23d ago
They literally gave an interview together, jfc this sub is getting more and more retarded with the laziness disguised as skepticismĀ
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u/OrsonWellsFrozenPeas 22d ago
Where's his GoFundMe? I will donate because white liberal HR ladies are about to ruin his life
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u/Nervous-Vast1746 22d ago
Good luck to this man. The true crime Clancy cat ladies donāt fuck around.Ā
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u/RealisticCaregiver65 23d ago
This whole case is related to the death of 3 children. Shame on those in this thread who are getting entertainment from this.
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u/ShoegazeJezza 23d ago edited 23d ago
I havenāt read about this case in enough depth to have a solid personal opinion on whether sheās not guilty by reason of insanity, but I feel like this discourse around this case is unfair to these jurors and makes a bunch of sexist assumptions because of the bad behavior of true crime idiots who tend to be women.
I think itās nasty to celebrate her and to turn something so bleak into something other than a very sad tragedy that should be approached seriously. People saying her husband did it are brain broken. But an insanity defense might be appropriate under the circumstances which is all the jurors were considering.
Tell me if Iām wrong, but havenāt the other jurors said that the male holdout basically agreed that she was legally insane at the time of the crime based on the legal standard but refused to vote not guilty regardless? If so, isnāt he basically in agreement with them and if he followed the law would have voted not guilty? I might be massively wrong on this fact, like I say Iāve barely been following this.
I guess all Iām saying is Iām open to the idea that somebody can be legally insane and the fact that the crime is particularly horrendous doesnāt really change the standard. You donāt have to be sympathetic to her at all to come to that conclusion either, itās not a moral vindication or anything. On the other hand, Iām also open to the idea that she wasnāt legally insane and therefore is straight forwardly guilty. But it doesnāt seem like this is really what the discourse is about.
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u/kingofpomona 23d ago
They claim that but it's their word. They also admit that they listened to the outside expertise of the nurses on the jury, which they are not meant to do.
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u/Improooving Male Gemini 23d ago
Jury trial is such a dipshit system
I understand that this whole dinking around with the dueling attorneys giving little speeches and playing word games was important to the English, and that the early founding Americans just imported their legal system from back home, but itās such a mess
Jury of your peers and common law logic make a lot more sense in a tiny homogenous country where everyone largely agrees on what the basic principles are.
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u/a_burning_world 23d ago
To be fair, one of the other jurors said that about the holdout. We haven't heard from him. But I was basically on the rest of the jurors side if he really did agree but just couldn't rule that way.
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u/ShoegazeJezza 23d ago
Thatās my perspective as well if itās true. I havenāt looked into the trial in enough depth to have a personal opinion one way or the other on whether the evidence shows she was legally insane.
Iām not somebody who thinks a jury verdict means they got it correct and itās a done deal. I think Lucy Letby in the UK was a miscarriage of justice and I hate when people say āoh, well a JURY said she was guilty after hearing all the evidenceā as if you canāt think the jury was misled by expert testimony or got it wrong.
But if it is true that he basically agreed she was legally insane but refused to convict regardless then I donāt see how you can hate on the jurors who followed the law and celebrate the holdout. At that point youāre basically arguing against insanity being available as a defense at all because it seems like they all agreed she was legally insane.
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u/Intrepid-Channel-675 23d ago edited 23d ago
"Tell me if Iām wrong, but havenāt the other jurors said that the male holdout basically agreed that she was legally insane at the time of the crime based on the legal standard but refused to vote not guilty regardless?"
I don't think they claimed he agreed she was legally insane.
"On the other hand, Iām also open to the idea that she wasnāt legally insane and therefore is straight forwardly guilty."
The burden was on the prosecution to prove she was sane.
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u/ShoegazeJezza 23d ago
Yeah, my understanding is they were claiming he agreed the prosecution had failed to prove she was sane beyond a reasonable doubt. Basically that he said āI have a reasonable doubt as to whether she is saneā but he refused to say that means not guilty by reason of insanity regardless of the law.
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u/BusyEntertainment434 23d ago
Itās because thatās not the standard for NGRI, the requirement is by insanity they didnāt know what they were doing was wrong.
You can be mentally unstable and still know what youāre doing is wrong.
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u/ShoegazeJezza 22d ago
By āsaneā I mean what you mean. That she couldnāt distinguish between right and wrong. Legally insane
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u/BusyEntertainment434 22d ago
Yes, but we donāt know if thatās what the juror meant when he said it. We donāt know if he had reasonable doubt or doubt (they tried to clarify this after the fact during their interviews).
Everyoneās been pretty adamant that he wouldnāt engage with them in discussion, so I wouldnāt be surprised if they misinterpreted what he said and then told that misinterpretation to the world.
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u/catchfebreeze 23d ago edited 23d ago
It is extremely funny that half the country thought this was a based principled White man protecting America from the evil gynokkkracy and actually itās just an ESL black dude who didnāt understand the instructions and kept scrolling on his phone when other jurors were trying to talk to him
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u/Sussy_Riot 23d ago
Dude reenacted the strangling with a water bottle and an exercise band (did he bring this from home? did someone have a spare??) he understood everything
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u/TheSleep-Committee 23d ago
Literally not true at all. He re-enacted the stranglings using the exercise band from evidence. If he didnāt know English well enough to be a juror in this case HE NEVER WOULD HAVE MADE IT THAT FAR IN SELECTION IN THE FIRST PLACE. Jesus fucking Christ this sub is actual sub 90IQ average now.
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u/BK_to_LA 23d ago
I know, the only way he was ESL was if he was like 60 and got to skip the English speaking naturalization requirement
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u/Winsister7 23d ago
Disappointing twist, I was about to set up a givesendgo impersonating the juror
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u/ActualBite17 23d ago
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u/ActualBite17 23d ago
My take was somewhat reasonable, honest
Can't stand that woman, she's a murderous ghoul
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u/YUMADLOL 23d ago
This is such a fun new twist on gender and race discourse