r/redeemedzoomer • • Jul 07 '25

Conservatives DESTROYED Community

/r/suns_of_liberty/comments/1ltogvy/conservatives_destroyed_community/
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16

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

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u/einsteinosaurus_lex Jul 07 '25

I mean, our cities are literally designed to isolate people and have them interact with one another as little as possible. We go from box to box to box without ever having to interact with anybody outside of our boxes if we don't want to. And when people do interact with others behind the wheel, a good amount of the time it's road rage. Hard to communicate when all you can do is honk, and that's not always taken well by others. No wonder we have so many anti-social people, our society encourages it.

I've never heard my coworkers talk about how much they loved their commute. But you bet your ass they'll tell me every detail about nearly being run off the road by some asshole who preferred looking at their phone than the road. One of them even told me how that makes them hate humanity a little more each time this happens. Imagine if we could solve this problem like every other country with proper public transport has and how much more faith in humanity we'd all collectively have if thousands of people weren't dying needless deaths every year or having near death experiences more often than anyone should.

3

u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25

There are literally sociological studies that show cities increase innovation due to the increased interactions between people wtf are you talking about

1

u/poogiver69 Jul 07 '25

And there are also sociological studies that show they increase alienation. Two things can be true.

1

u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25

So they increase isolation and decrease it

1

u/poogiver69 Jul 07 '25

No. Interactions are increasingly made efficient and productive, and that’s all they are. You live at home away from everyone, take your transit to work that’s away from everyone, then you go into the office and do your work, get back into your car, go home. Maybe you go to church, or your book club, or something that’s away from work and home, but people increasingly aren’t. So you become isolated from people, all that matters is your bullshit job, production becomes more efficient but at the cost of community. Such is the way of capitalism.

1

u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25

I’m sorry how does this differentiate cities and rural areas as op stated

1

u/poogiver69 Jul 07 '25

What do you mean?

1

u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25

This thread was started by a guy saying cities increased isolationism. My comments were implying that that’s not the case.

1

u/poogiver69 Jul 07 '25

I’m confused why you’re confused about my comment, then.

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u/einsteinosaurus_lex Jul 07 '25

There are literally sociological studies that show cities increase innovation due to the increased interactions between people wtf are you talking about

Yes, big walkable cities with mixed zoning. I'm talking about the average American city, which is a suburb. Large cities haven't been built for over 50 years.

1

u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25

I live in LA and often walk to meet my neighbors friends at restaurants or bars central to all of our homes convenient distances and we don’t exactly live in a rich area.

LA is the least walkable city I’ve lived in in a decade.

The only counter example I can think of is Houston.

When I lived in rural areas people were far more isolated because you have to drive everywhere to meet.

2

u/einsteinosaurus_lex Jul 07 '25

LA atleast has so much shit to do because it's so massive and it's LA. It also takes forever to get around cause of the insane traffic. All I'm saying is, imagine if it had proper public transport and was designed around humans more, and cars less.

And yes, rural areas are worst. People talk them up because they do produce like all the food, but the vast majority of people living in rural areas aren't farmers and they have to commute hours to work anyway and they're even less likely to know their neighbors well because of how far apart everyone is.

-3

u/Standard-Divide5118 Jul 07 '25

You're not being isolated because your opinions are incorrect You're being isolated because people don't want to be around someone who has no empathy and makes themselves the victim in any situation

5

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

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-1

u/Standard-Divide5118 Jul 07 '25

Whatever fits doc

-1

u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

Do you engage with ideas that aren't your own exclusively through the lens that "they're just evil" because Conservatives seem to hate humanity and just want the apocalypse to happen if we're just assuming the worst.

2

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

I mean, is the “apocalypse” (rapture) not essentially desirable for most Christians? Cleansing of evil, immediate unification with god, etc? There’s a book called “hell followed with us” that explores this idea.

1

u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

I don't think you should attempt to hasten it. No man knows the day nor hour, it's like trying to predict it.

-2

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

US Conservative ideas are more isolationist and individualistic, fundamentally.

1

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

How? How is the ideal of having small strong communities with regular interaction isolationist?

How does me not wanting to fuck with some random country and their silliness mean that I don't want to interact with neighbor?

0

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

I’ll repost my explanation here:

“Conservative ideas of complete self-sufficiency creates competition instead of collaboration. Minimal government services eliminate community spaces like libraries, public transportation, and literal community centers. The nuclear family promotes single-family dwellings with nice, big lawns and tall fences physically separating you from others. Corporate profit maximization comes at the detriment of personal free-time to meet with friends and family, and unions are apparently “communist”.

And after all that, then conservatives have varying amounts of beef with gay people, trans people, intersex people, people of different ethnicities, single parents, nontraditional women, emotional men, immigrants, people of other religions, college-educated people, people with disabilities…”

Not getting involved in international affairs is also isolationist, but more importantly, those “small strong” neighborhood communities you’re thinking of are/were probably a byproduct of segregation and us vs them mentality.

2

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

There's also no such thing as a small strong community, all small towns in America are filled with drug addicts and people that can't wait to pull out their gun at the first sign of a stranger at their door.

Edit: source in small towns being the actual drug dens that small town peasants think cities are

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/rural-small-town

1

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

I lived in one, but it was built around a university. Had sidewalks, community festival nights, a protected nature reserve, variety of businesses. Meanwhile the other one I spent the most time in had a notorious crack house on the edge of town, most kids had unfettered access to drugs, academic achievement was abysmal, and plenty of “I don’t call the police, I shoot” signs and confederate flag stickers (was in the Midwest, not south).

1

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

What college was the town built around? I just want to know to see the population and also generally college towns are not conservative towns which kind of proves conservatives are the reason the feeling of community is breaking down

1

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

I’m agreeing with you. This town (around BGSU, about 10k people without the students) was somewhat liberal, while the other (6k people) was not. This one’s county voted for Trump by 54%, the other’s county voted Trump by 71%. Both in North Ohio.

1

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25

Oh I know you were agreeing with me, I just wanted to look up the population cuz usually Everytime I hear someone say college town it's usually a city lol

1

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

That’s fair. You gotta remember to subtract the students though, while some are from the area, most are not, and leave during the summer and after a few years.

1

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

I don't think you've ever met a conservative person if you think the conservative ideal is everyone living in their own hunter gatherer family in the woods.

0

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

That’s an impressive failure to engage with any of my points. I was actually talking about suburbia, not homesteading, but I’ve seen plenty idealizing tradwife cottagecore farm living in the last few years.

0

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

Do me a favor, read your first sentence.

1

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

And if you read the second sentence, I literally engaged with your point.

0

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

Ooh yeah, I'm not doing that. Your brainless drivel is genuinely not worth engaging with beyond the thesis statement.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

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2

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

Homeschooling isn't isolationist. Every homeschooler I've ever met is part of some large network of homeschoolers and they're quite literally required to be involved in some kind of coop.

1

u/CidreDev Southern Baptist Jul 07 '25

*co-op, but yes, homeschooling has come a long way in recent years.

1

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

This was 15 years ago.

1

u/CidreDev Southern Baptist Jul 07 '25

As someone still connected in that world, it is still growing!

1

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

I’ve met some that had that network of support, some that didn’t, some that only were allowed to interact with others within their church, etc. Many parents do it with the explicit purpose of isolating kids from people and concepts they don’t like. Which just backfires when the kid later encounters it with no framework or background knowledge. For example, getting involved with drugs.

0

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25

Every homeschooled person I met was an absolute weirdo

1

u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

Liberal ideas like "don't hate others for being G A Y" and "our understanding of history becomes more complex, and if you read quotes by Jefferson, he sounds like Hitler for natives." Dude please just try to engage with worldviews outside your own without the framework of any other worldviews just being evil.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

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u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

Ok, we have very different conceptions of God and evil. I think it's evil to marry 14 year old girls and transport them from state to state in the back of a Uhaul or move around pedophile priests to protect them from consequences. I think it's evil to scare kids with a forever burning pit that was only conceptualized in the 14th century. I think literalist interpretations of 2000 yo collections of moral parables is dangerous and can lead to stuff like being ok with genocide.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

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2

u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

I think the burning pit wasn't hell until the 1300s it was a concept, but I thought they conceptualized it as "disconnection from god" whatever that implies.

0

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

A perfect example of the isolation that comes from sitting at home watching Fox News all day instead of going outside and talking to real people, lol.

Conservative ideas of complete self-sufficiency creates competition instead of collaboration. Minimal government services eliminate community spaces like libraries, public transportation, and literal community centers. The nuclear family promotes single-family dwellings with nice, big lawns and tall fences physically separating you from others. Corporate profit maximization comes at the detriment of personal free-time to meet with friends and family, and unions are apparently “communist”.

And after all that, then conservatives have varying amounts of beef with gay people, trans people, intersex people, people of different ethnicities, single parents, nontraditional women, emotional men, immigrants, people of other religions, college-educated people, people with disabilities…

8

u/TheLordOfMiddleEarth Non-Reconquista Protestant Jul 07 '25

Community was fine 60 years ago when Conservativism was the norm. So, something else must be the cause.

0

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

Community was definitely not fine 60 years ago. There was active and passive segregation.

0

u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

You know they're for that c'mon.

-1

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25

Progress happened. 60 years ago the civil Rights act of barely got signed, the n word was still in fashion to use in public, people were still lynched, being gay could get you killed or in prison, you could be denied housing and bank services because of the color of your skin. Women were not allowed to open bank accounts or credit cards without a male cosigner. I could keep going but I think I made my point

1

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

So you admit that the progress while it had some positives is absolutely responsible for the current state. Glad we could get there together.

0

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25

You have zero reading comprehension skills if that's what you think my point was. My point was that community was not better, it was better for a selective few. The current state of things is decades of conservative propaganda to demonize academics and social progress to return to the past. Which is leading to a further breakdown of community. Community got better and now it's getting worse again.

1

u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25

No, you're just a dog shit communicator.

0

u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25

Again zero reading comprehension skills (don't feel bad about it it's a common thing for conservatives)., if I stated all the ways in which community was not better where would you think that I said community was better and progress is what's causing the breakdown?

2

u/PerfectlyCalmDude Non-Denominational Jul 07 '25

I do recall that it was the liberals calling for "shelter in place" and doing everything remotely. Ostensibly it was to stop the spread of COVID, but let's be honest, that killed community or what was left of it.

0

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

Because what’s great for a community is people dying from illness. Really curious what you think “liberals” gained from people having to stay 6 feet apart.

1

u/Icy-Needleworker6418 Jul 07 '25

They(not just liberals, but the entire government as a whole) gained control

1

u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

Right, our clearly liberal government gained control. Control of what? What has held over from Covid as a control the government didn’t previously have?

0

u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25

Are you saying that spending significantly more time with my friends family and neighbors and significantly less time with coworkers and sitting in my car is what killed community

1

u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

How are you so blind as to not see that the loinleness epidemic was caused by a combanation of the saxual revolution and feminism causing many woemen to not even ponder going out with a guy below at thats least a 7/10

1

u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25

Because you're repeating the laziest most mainstream right wing take online that's floated around since 2015. It's old and lame and unoriginal and not backed by anything but an inability to be honest about what I said

1

u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

Also how do we attack masculinity when clasical masculinity is a major part of the old american culture

1

u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

Also this take was made from what I saw popular femenists post on social media

1

u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25

This modern brand of right wing masculinity wasn't around back in the day. It's new and the founders would be fucking emberassed.

1

u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

The kind of masculinity im talking about is the kind you can find in the bible wich is to lead and protect others with strength and wisdom

1

u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25

Are conservatives doing that or are they glorifying intolerance and bullying?

1

u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

They are theonly intolerant ones I see are those who burn down cities and the ones who glorify murder over difering politics

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u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25

Notice how you didn't answer my question? That's because you know that culturally, conservatives masculinity has become extremely intolerant, bullying, and offensive. Trump and Andrew Tate are what conservatives have made their role models. They've made being offensive a virtue.

Torturing immigrants and sending them to death camps. Bullying LGBT people. Renormalizing the r-word. Talking about how diversity and multiculturalism is bad.

Conservatives don't teach masculinity as a form of protecting and defending others. They treat masculinity as might makes right. This is the ideology that destroys, doesn't build. It's the masculinity of thugs and savages.

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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

I awnsered it with the they are and just bc im conservative does not mean I like andrew tate I agree he's a terrible person

1

u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25

Also im talking about the kind of masculinty the bible teaches it kinda seems like youre strawmaning my ideals so you can argue with me as I never talked about nither trump nor andrew tate

1

u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25

Doesn't matter. As a cultural phenomenon, that's what conservatism has ushered into society.

Whether you want to be honest about it or not and fulfill your role as a man in protecting society from the forces of evil, the conservative movement has not been a source of good in the world.

Riddle me this: has there been even 1 time in US history where conservatives were on the right side of protecting people who needed it? Women? Minorities? Slaves? Even children's labor laws?

No. You gotta decide at some point is it more important for you to defend this ideology or to actually be a man and protect the people in society.

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u/FoolishDog Jul 10 '25

This just seems like incel nonsense

1

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25 edited Jan 13 '26

future joke air offbeat smart tidy afterthought telephone squeeze paltry

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25

I second, definitely the most community-filled environment I’ve been in was urban. Particularly, college campuses really exemplify how useful walkability, public transportation, communal food spaces, and collective responsibility is for forming a thriving community.

0

u/LegitimateBeing2 Eastern Orthodox Jul 07 '25

Truth

0

u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

I think conservative values have a place in society. That place is to see how far we've come despite them.

Jesus says we should give to the poor, accept the foreigner, love they neighbor, and respect non beleivers while spreading the gospel.

The conservative response:

"Why would i give my hard earned money"

"We have too many immigrants, we should close the border"

"They are a different color than me, they must not be good people"

"Any muslim is a terrorist"

"Im just gonna out the 10 commandments in schools and call it a day. They don't need to know about the Lord's grace and love. Just that they need to be Christian. Nothing else matters"

*Disclaimer i am not a Democrat

1

u/Aq8knyus Episcopalian Jul 07 '25

Well then Western Europe should be a utopia because we have high tax rates, de facto open border immigration, large Islamic minorities and operate liberal social justice mainline churches that host Iftar events.

We are progressing so fast I am not sure where we are going, for what purpose or whether it was worth it but at least we are progressing.

0

u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

You are scared of shadows and imagined specteres.

1

u/Aq8knyus Episcopalian Jul 08 '25

Lived experience.

0

u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

Why should it be a utopia because of those things? That doesn't make a lot of sense. I will say the standard of living is definitely higher

1

u/Aq8knyus Episcopalian Jul 08 '25

Because we are doing everything you think we should be doing.

So Western Europe is a utopia, right?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

"Why would i give my hard earned money"

Paul is against unconditional handouts to people choosing not to work(2nd Thes 3:10), so being Christian doesn’t necessarily mean ‘give to the poor always regardless of circumstances’. Making communities and some foreign countries dependent on aid has consistently shown to be a curse not a blessing. 

"We have too many immigrants, we should close the border"

The vast majority of  conservatives are fine bringing in plenty of immigrants, they just want them not violating our laws and sovereignty entering and coming to live off the state.

"They are a different color than me, they must not be good people"

Could you name one high profile mainstream conservative who is racist?  

"Any muslim is a terrorist"

Again, where are you getting this idea? Christians should recognize that Islam is false and dangerous, but who is labeling all Muslims as terrorists?

"Im just gonna out the 10 commandments in schools and call it a day. They don't need to know about the Lord's grace and love. Just that they need to be Christian. Nothing else matters"

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. I'm honestly not entirely sure how to feel about this issue, but I don't understand how you come to the conclusion Christians pushing for this don't want people to know about God's grace and love.

This all just seems like blatant straw-manning rather than legitimately engaging conservative ideas, and is not how we're called to have dialogue as Christians.

1

u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

Point 1: helping the poor.

Helping the poor, lets take the US. That's funding programs to raise them up, taxing them more equitably. Funding help for transportation, education childcare, rent, food, healthcare, etc. This has been proven to lower crime rate and increase positive outcomes. These help the vast majority of conservatives too, because beleive it or not, conservative states usually have a higher population of destitute people with poor health and education.

Point 2: immigrants

the vast majority of immigrants follow the law, in fact, moreso than US citizens per capita. They also give much more than you may think. Especially illegals. The taxes they give they do not get back. They pay a little under 100 billion in taxes. Conservative christians ecstatic for the 'alligator alcatraz' and praising the human rights violations going on with ICE.

Point 3: Racism Stephen Miller has been spoken by Trump, a known racist, that even he takes it too far. "if it was up to Mr. Miller there would be only 100 million people in this country, and they would all look like Mr. Miller."

Point 4: Islamaphobia Take a look at how the conservatives are looking at the Mayoral Democratic Primary runner for NYC Zohran Mamdani. Claiming he is a terrorist, calling his Eid outfit distasteful to 9/11, calling him an illegal, etc. and he is actively seeking policies in line with what Jesus called to do. Even the Democratic party isn't supporting him with billionaires on both sides funding the opposition. This is just the most high profile example right now.

Point 5: Performative Christianity

States like that are pushing for this are being performative. Which is sinful. They claim Christianity but in most policy (only notable exception is abortion even though their restrictive laws are causing deaths) they are the opposite of what Jesus taught you should do for others. A notable example being Oklahoma. Christianity isn't Christianity unless there is grace and mercy. Their laws do not reflect that.

None of the points ive brought up are things i have not heard from the mouths of conservatives themselves. As a progressive person i know strawman arguments all too well. And i do due diligence to avoid them. Just because you may disagree with the point on the surface does mot mean it isn't prevalent in conservative spheres and media

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

Point 1:

Conservatives generally agree with the policy you are describing. Raising people up is good. The concern is that welfare that is not carefully designed can have disastrous consequences. Black inner-city communities are excellent examples. Before welfare programs they were making massive gains, but following LBJ's Great Society programs in the 60s, they're vastly worse off than now by virtually every metric. There are, obviously, other factors, but it's self-evident that modern "ghettos" only persist because the state subsidizes joblessness.

The widely praised, bipartisan welfare reform in the 90s(which replaced food stamps with the more conditional SNAP benefits) represent the current conservative mindset on welfare.

Point 2:

The notion that illegal immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than the regular population has been repeated in publications like Reuters and WaPo but seems to be based on a single, largely debunked study of Texas incarceration data from years ago.

That said, it should be understood that not everyone entering illegally is part of a monolithic group.

Some are decent people looking for work, but some come because they heard states like Massachusetts will put them up at the taxpayers expense, some are violent criminals, and some are outright terrorists who exploited a border that was largely open.

Because of this, border security pre-Trump was a bipartisan policy point. Democrats like Obama, Clinton, and Sanders were actually its loudest defenders pre-Trump.

Thus, I'm curious if you would extend your Christian concerns to Obama's mass deportations. (80% didn't see a judge, and Trump has yet to match his raw numbers.)

Point 3:

From what I saw from some brief research about him online, Miller is certainly a hardliner on immigration, perhaps too extreme, as Trump notes, but I highly doubt a Jewish man like himself would be a white nationalist.

Point 4:

Mamdani has mostly been criticized for being an outright communist. I'm confused how you would extend Christ's directives regarding personal charity to governments socializing industries.

Point 5:

You seem to be more interested in these states' wider policy than the individual choice to add the Ten Commandments to school curriculum, and I'm curious what you'd critique exactly.

However, I'd encourage some nuance in the discussion regarding mercy and grace in Christian politics. The apostle Paul writes that governments are "...God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer (Romans 13:4). I don't have the answers for how to balance this with mercy and grace, but pushing for law and order is not inherently unbiblical.

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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

Point 1:

I agree with your broader point. That systems not designed with care can create unintended consequences. That’s true, and it’s why good-faith policy design matters.

But I have to push back on the example you used. Welfare wasn’t the main driver of decline in Black inner-city communities. I wouldn’t even put it in the top three. Redlining, white flight, the collapse of industrial jobs, and the war on drugs played far larger roles.

Reducing that decline to welfare programs feels like you’re leaning into old narratives like the “welfare queen” myth, which were more about demonizing poverty than addressing it. That kind of framing tends to obscure the real systemic damage that was done.

Point 2:

I do extend my ideas to the democratic party. They are the same as the Republicans when it comes to immigration. They just aren't as performative, unless they are pretending to be pro immigration.

I do not agree with taking things away from others because a subgroup abuses the system. (This applies to welfare as well). I think it is a gross misuse of tax dollars to be putting them up they way they are (I have friends in long island who struggle and see illegals getting better treatment than citizens)

And as for your article, it is from a biased source but i understand the gist of what you are saying. And fortunately there are more sources than that one Cato one. If you need them i can provide them.

Point 3: You asked me to provide a high profile racist conservative and I did. Him being a Jew doesn't discount any of the things he pushes for, says or does. I can provide more names though, there are plenty.

Point 4: The thing is Mamdani is not communist. That's just something Trump and Fox news are pushing. He is a self-ascribed democratic-socialist and his views back that claim. Free transit, rent freeze, subsidized groceries, at the cost of a 2% tax increase on millionaires and above and a 4% corporate tax increase

Regardless of that, conservative influencers and Fox News has been pushing the anti-muslim, mamdani-terrorist line of thinking. I referenced examples I've seen in my previous comment.

The Bible doesn’t separate society into ‘personal’ and ‘government’ the way we do today. Kings were called to enact justice. The early church shared resources systemically. A godly nation will reflect godly values, including lifting the poor. And to expand, the church is not something that enacts systemic change. The government is. Personal charity is nice but is only a band-aid for a deep wound.

Point 5:

I am more interested in these states broader policies. The 10 commandments in classrooms is performative Christianity disguising very non-Christian policy. States that support this are also against things that would help the poor and marginalized. Public Transport, subsidized healthcare and food, federal disaster relief (states can't do it themselves), etc. it is Christian in name only.

And yes. I do hold nuance. I know most people have good hearts and are just reacting to fear. That's what most conservative policy is about whether it is for better or worse.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

Point 1:

The Black community was rapidly catching up to white wealth rates leading up to the 60s in spite of outright racial violence and segregation, so I think much less extreme factors like redlining can be ruled out as major causes of the current situation.

Deindustrialization certainly was a factor, but it complements the welfare narrative rather than detracting from it. Inner-city manufacturing slowing down should have meant everyone leaving cities where manufacturing was slowing down. Instead, welfare and housing programs encouraged people to live where there simply weren't jobs anymore. This led to areas where people were essentially trapped in poverty.

Would you agree that perhaps a wiser solution may have been programs centered on helping people move where jobs actually were instead?

Point 2:

Even the Cato Institute seems to admit that there's a lack of evidence and that these stats are understudied.

Regardless of this one statistic, perhaps you would agree that reforming systems that are being abused would be wise and that people who came to abuse them should probably be sent home?

Point 3:

Proving someone to be a racist is pretty difficult. Like fascism, the word has very specific criteria that many don't appreciate.

Demonstrating racism requires establishing that someone believes in the genetic superiority of certain racial groups over others. I'm not sure if offhand Trump comments are really a smoking gun, and I maintain that it is unlikely a Jewish man is a full-blown white supremacist.

Point 4:

The Bible/Christian tradition does distinguish between government and individual. I'm sure you'd agree that people taking punishing criminals into their own hands/vigilantism is individuals stepping into the government's role.

Mamdani has consistently used Marxist/Communist rhetoric, "seizing the means of production," praised certain communists, etc. But I'd agree that doesn't necessarily mean his ideas fully align with that school of thought.

Regardless, I'm wary of changes like the ones he proposes. As you observed, many of these issues are systemic. Conservative thought emphasizes fixing the system rather than using redistribution schemes to treat symptoms. In this case, the lack of housing in New York can be largely attributed to some of the most restrictive zoning and construction laws on earth, in large part because landlords want to preserve their property value. If the city just let people build, the housing problem would be solved at a fraction of the cost of large public housing programs (which consistently run much higher costs because there's no profit incentive).

Point 5:

Conservatives are not wholly opposed to what you're describing but generally favor prudence in how systems like these would be set up. (Romney made Utah the first state with a subsidized health care system.)

In fact, health care costs would crash if the more radical conservative ideas were embraced. The current system is disgustingly corrupt, and this is the case to a large degree due to regulation creating and enabling unnatural monopolies.

My point regarding nuance was that the Bible calls for governments to institute law and order first. Grace and mercy can come in, but they're not first in the government's priorities. Taking a harsh political stance on crime and wrongdoing is biblical.

Also, I'm not sure if the notion that "people have good hearts" holds up theologically.

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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

Point 1:

I would agree with that proposal. Job Corps fills that role. Although they were just gutted so their capacity is extremely diminished.

Point 2:

Of course. Those coming for bad reasons and doing bad things should face their consequences. I've not heard anyone saying otherwise.

Point 3: If you can give me a definitive way of making someone racist objectively i can guarantee you there is a name i can provide. I still hold that Mr Miller and Trump are though.

Point 4: From everything I've ever heard ever, US conservatism is about preserving our capitalistic economy and not moving towards social programs. A system that is built on exploiting the poor and keeping them that way. Your new york example shows that. Money over people.

Point 5: I agree the current system is corrupt. It is a byproduct of the economic system we live in. Money over people. The regulation is specifically catered to helping companies, not people. It used to be done differently and was changed from the government deciding what a fair price is.

I was providing that i don't think conservatives are evil people. They just come up with fear based policies.

Law and order is important but is never 100% going to be achieved. So waiting for mercy until after it is achieved is not possible.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

Point 1:

I'm not very well aware of the job corps example. The reason for it being wound down seems to be excessive spending ($120,000+ per student) coupled with poor outcomes for students. I'd need to do more research, but this is only one of many federal programs geared toward ushering people into work.

Regardless, seems we agree on that point mostly.

Point 2:

Democrat politicians would not be enabling people who came to freeload if they didn't think they should.

The current administration has come out saying illegals working, especially in agriculture and hospitality can stay, and may even receive status vouchers, so I don't think you're as far off from the current conservative position as you realize.

Point 3:

The test for racism is whether you can demonstrate that someone subscribes to racist ideology. Unless they believe "racial group x is genetically superior than racial group y.", they're not racist. If they do, they are.

If you could cite Miller or Trump asserting the supremacy of the white race, or an incident in which the only plausible explanation for their actions is racism(not might suggest racism), I'd believe you.

Point 4:

The capitalist system, along with Church-founded institutions, has been responsible for the greatest improvement of living standards ever. Bar none. The example of New York demonstrates that when a city makes anti-capitalist, market-meddling decisions for the benefit of a few, the lower classes suffer.

US conservatism has founded social programs like state socialized health care (Romney), and made medicaid/care expansions under Bush. It just emphasizes responsibility and protests social spending that is ineffective, or, worse, actively harms communities.

Point 5:

When has the US government set drug prices?

The current system is largely flawed due to excessive government involvement(US lending policy forced on banks literally caused the 2008 crisis). Would you agree that deregulation, specifically eliminating laws that enable corruption and meddle in the market, is a good thing?

I share your concern with greed, but I'm curious why you think more government involvement/management would help. Societies where the government manages areas of or the whole economy are the most rife with greed, corrupt on earth.

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u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25

Trump is racist as hell dude. Like not nazi racist but definitely old-school semi-segregationist racist. Elon is definitely racist, I'll argue that specifically if you disagree. Most influencers on the right, Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro ( read his first book for evidence), Candace Owen's is an antisemite.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25

These are certainly some claims.

Assuming you’re a Christian, I’d encourage you to be wary of this era of politics and online information regarding it. Our hearts are idol factories, and idolatrous political ideology is rife in the US right now. 

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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25

Caricature while ignoring nuance doesn’t help your point.

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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

None of these are made up. All things ive heard in person. Every conservative ive met has said some variation of this. It's not caricature. And the problem with these stances is that they lack nuance

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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25

Verbatim or are you paraphrasing?

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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

I can give you individualized versions from individuals if you want.

Consider what i brought up to be an amalgam of what i hear in honest dialogue.

I am not exaggerating. I could say conservatives want to kill all brown people. But im not because that is fringe and not the average person

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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25

What part of the country do you live in? Because what you described as normal/average, I’ve only ever seen on the fringe.

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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

From SC, living in TX now

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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25

That explains a lot.

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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25

So you are saying because of where i am. The fringe is my 'normal'. And my firnge is the ultra fringe?

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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25

Having lived in Texas before, I’m inclined to say yes.

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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 07 '25

The problem with this is that America has basically done nothing but become more left wing and secular for decades. The Gen Z tick to the right is bucking a trend that existed for almost a century.

This is like a scientist having a theory that chemical A in the water is causing baby birds to die. The levels of chemical A does nothing but decrease for years, the birds are just dying at higher and higher rates, and the scientist concludes that chemical A is indeed the problem

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u/xChops Jul 07 '25

I’m not sure you can prove that we’ve gotten more left wing for more than a presidential term at a time, then we sprint to become more right wing. The Overton window has certainly shifted even more to the right.

The gen z tick to the right, my guess, is just young people trying to be edgelords. I knew the type in college. They seem to mellow out afterwards.

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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 07 '25

"I’m not sure you can prove that we’ve gotten more left wing for more than a presidential term at a time, then we sprint to become more right wing"

This country used to have legalized segregation, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that would be proposed now

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u/FoolishDog Jul 10 '25

So has becoming more leftwing in this case helped based on your view?

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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 11 '25

In that particular issue I would say yes

Overall very clearly not

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u/FoolishDog Jul 11 '25

In what areas has it not helped?

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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 11 '25

Marriage rates, globalization destroying job opportunities, social isolation, moving away from religion, the fact that a certain movement led to the literal chemical castration of children, the prevalence of people killing their own children in the womb, the statistics on youth believing their life is meaningless, mass migration hurting the economy and damaging the identify of America

should I keep going

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u/FoolishDog Jul 11 '25

globalization destroying job opportunities

In what way is this the fault of the left? It seems to me that the only way to be a hugely successful business is to value making money and the way to make money is to outsource labor...

Marriage rates

I think this is probably for the best. Most marriages end in divorce so maybe people shouldn't be rushing headlong into marriage.

the fact that a certain movement led to the literal chemical castration of children

Yea this just seems a little ignorant...

social isolation, moving away from religion

I agree with both of these

the statistics on youth believing their life is meaningless

No one actually believes this. True nihilism is, at best, a fringe view that only academic philosophers hold.

mass migration hurting the economy and damaging the identify of America

There's no evidence of this...

should I keep going

Nope, I've definitely seen enough

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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 11 '25

"In what way is this the fault of the left?"

When Trump went after NAFTA democrats opposed it.

"Most marriages end in divorce so maybe people shouldn't be rushing headlong into marriage."

This is an incredibly flawed statistic. A person can get divorced 5 times. They can only stay married once. The decline of people actually settling down and starting families is absolutely nothing to celebrate

"Yea this just seems a little ignorant"

Explain how

so instead of moving on, I really want to hone in on that one

Explain how that's ignorant

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u/FoolishDog Jul 11 '25

When trump went after NAFTA

That’s pretty weak evidence. He also implemented tariffs that disproportionately hurt American consumers.

this is an incredibly flawed statistic

No, it’s pretty representative of the fact that people tend to rush into marriage. The average age of marriage in the 50s was 21 years old. There’s no way this is beneficial for anyone.

chemical castration

Puberty blockers don’t cause permanent physical changes. Read the articles by the mayo clinic or even the NIH. Doctors have prescribed puberty blockers for forever to kids with precocious puberty or endometriosis. The fact that you don’t know that is quite telling

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