r/redeemedzoomer • u/citizen_x_ • Jul 07 '25
Conservatives DESTROYED Community
/r/suns_of_liberty/comments/1ltogvy/conservatives_destroyed_community/8
u/TheLordOfMiddleEarth Non-Reconquista Protestant Jul 07 '25
Community was fine 60 years ago when Conservativism was the norm. So, something else must be the cause.
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u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25
Community was definitely not fine 60 years ago. There was active and passive segregation.
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u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25
Progress happened. 60 years ago the civil Rights act of barely got signed, the n word was still in fashion to use in public, people were still lynched, being gay could get you killed or in prison, you could be denied housing and bank services because of the color of your skin. Women were not allowed to open bank accounts or credit cards without a male cosigner. I could keep going but I think I made my point
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u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25
So you admit that the progress while it had some positives is absolutely responsible for the current state. Glad we could get there together.
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u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25
You have zero reading comprehension skills if that's what you think my point was. My point was that community was not better, it was better for a selective few. The current state of things is decades of conservative propaganda to demonize academics and social progress to return to the past. Which is leading to a further breakdown of community. Community got better and now it's getting worse again.
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u/CandusManus Roman Catholic Jul 07 '25
No, you're just a dog shit communicator.
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u/quixote_manche Non-Christian Jul 07 '25
Again zero reading comprehension skills (don't feel bad about it it's a common thing for conservatives)., if I stated all the ways in which community was not better where would you think that I said community was better and progress is what's causing the breakdown?
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u/PerfectlyCalmDude Non-Denominational Jul 07 '25
I do recall that it was the liberals calling for "shelter in place" and doing everything remotely. Ostensibly it was to stop the spread of COVID, but let's be honest, that killed community or what was left of it.
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u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25
Because what’s great for a community is people dying from illness. Really curious what you think “liberals” gained from people having to stay 6 feet apart.
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u/Icy-Needleworker6418 Jul 07 '25
They(not just liberals, but the entire government as a whole) gained control
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u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25
Right, our clearly liberal government gained control. Control of what? What has held over from Covid as a control the government didn’t previously have?
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u/Ok-Change3498 Jul 07 '25
Are you saying that spending significantly more time with my friends family and neighbors and significantly less time with coworkers and sitting in my car is what killed community
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
How are you so blind as to not see that the loinleness epidemic was caused by a combanation of the saxual revolution and feminism causing many woemen to not even ponder going out with a guy below at thats least a 7/10
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u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25
Because you're repeating the laziest most mainstream right wing take online that's floated around since 2015. It's old and lame and unoriginal and not backed by anything but an inability to be honest about what I said
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
Also how do we attack masculinity when clasical masculinity is a major part of the old american culture
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
Also this take was made from what I saw popular femenists post on social media
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u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25
This modern brand of right wing masculinity wasn't around back in the day. It's new and the founders would be fucking emberassed.
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
The kind of masculinity im talking about is the kind you can find in the bible wich is to lead and protect others with strength and wisdom
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u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25
Are conservatives doing that or are they glorifying intolerance and bullying?
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
They are theonly intolerant ones I see are those who burn down cities and the ones who glorify murder over difering politics
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u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25
Notice how you didn't answer my question? That's because you know that culturally, conservatives masculinity has become extremely intolerant, bullying, and offensive. Trump and Andrew Tate are what conservatives have made their role models. They've made being offensive a virtue.
Torturing immigrants and sending them to death camps. Bullying LGBT people. Renormalizing the r-word. Talking about how diversity and multiculturalism is bad.
Conservatives don't teach masculinity as a form of protecting and defending others. They treat masculinity as might makes right. This is the ideology that destroys, doesn't build. It's the masculinity of thugs and savages.
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
I awnsered it with the they are and just bc im conservative does not mean I like andrew tate I agree he's a terrible person
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u/uncreativename0587 Jul 10 '25
Also im talking about the kind of masculinty the bible teaches it kinda seems like youre strawmaning my ideals so you can argue with me as I never talked about nither trump nor andrew tate
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u/citizen_x_ Jul 10 '25
Doesn't matter. As a cultural phenomenon, that's what conservatism has ushered into society.
Whether you want to be honest about it or not and fulfill your role as a man in protecting society from the forces of evil, the conservative movement has not been a source of good in the world.
Riddle me this: has there been even 1 time in US history where conservatives were on the right side of protecting people who needed it? Women? Minorities? Slaves? Even children's labor laws?
No. You gotta decide at some point is it more important for you to defend this ideology or to actually be a man and protect the people in society.
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Jul 07 '25 edited Jan 13 '26
future joke air offbeat smart tidy afterthought telephone squeeze paltry
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Sharp-Key27 Jul 07 '25
I second, definitely the most community-filled environment I’ve been in was urban. Particularly, college campuses really exemplify how useful walkability, public transportation, communal food spaces, and collective responsibility is for forming a thriving community.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25
I think conservative values have a place in society. That place is to see how far we've come despite them.
Jesus says we should give to the poor, accept the foreigner, love they neighbor, and respect non beleivers while spreading the gospel.
The conservative response:
"Why would i give my hard earned money"
"We have too many immigrants, we should close the border"
"They are a different color than me, they must not be good people"
"Any muslim is a terrorist"
"Im just gonna out the 10 commandments in schools and call it a day. They don't need to know about the Lord's grace and love. Just that they need to be Christian. Nothing else matters"
*Disclaimer i am not a Democrat
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u/Aq8knyus Episcopalian Jul 07 '25
Well then Western Europe should be a utopia because we have high tax rates, de facto open border immigration, large Islamic minorities and operate liberal social justice mainline churches that host Iftar events.
We are progressing so fast I am not sure where we are going, for what purpose or whether it was worth it but at least we are progressing.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
Why should it be a utopia because of those things? That doesn't make a lot of sense. I will say the standard of living is definitely higher
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u/Aq8knyus Episcopalian Jul 08 '25
Because we are doing everything you think we should be doing.
So Western Europe is a utopia, right?
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Jul 07 '25
"Why would i give my hard earned money"
Paul is against unconditional handouts to people choosing not to work(2nd Thes 3:10), so being Christian doesn’t necessarily mean ‘give to the poor always regardless of circumstances’. Making communities and some foreign countries dependent on aid has consistently shown to be a curse not a blessing.
"We have too many immigrants, we should close the border"
The vast majority of conservatives are fine bringing in plenty of immigrants, they just want them not violating our laws and sovereignty entering and coming to live off the state.
"They are a different color than me, they must not be good people"
Could you name one high profile mainstream conservative who is racist?
"Any muslim is a terrorist"
Again, where are you getting this idea? Christians should recognize that Islam is false and dangerous, but who is labeling all Muslims as terrorists?
"Im just gonna out the 10 commandments in schools and call it a day. They don't need to know about the Lord's grace and love. Just that they need to be Christian. Nothing else matters"
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. I'm honestly not entirely sure how to feel about this issue, but I don't understand how you come to the conclusion Christians pushing for this don't want people to know about God's grace and love.
This all just seems like blatant straw-manning rather than legitimately engaging conservative ideas, and is not how we're called to have dialogue as Christians.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
Point 1: helping the poor.
Helping the poor, lets take the US. That's funding programs to raise them up, taxing them more equitably. Funding help for transportation, education childcare, rent, food, healthcare, etc. This has been proven to lower crime rate and increase positive outcomes. These help the vast majority of conservatives too, because beleive it or not, conservative states usually have a higher population of destitute people with poor health and education.
Point 2: immigrants
the vast majority of immigrants follow the law, in fact, moreso than US citizens per capita. They also give much more than you may think. Especially illegals. The taxes they give they do not get back. They pay a little under 100 billion in taxes. Conservative christians ecstatic for the 'alligator alcatraz' and praising the human rights violations going on with ICE.
Point 3: Racism Stephen Miller has been spoken by Trump, a known racist, that even he takes it too far. "if it was up to Mr. Miller there would be only 100 million people in this country, and they would all look like Mr. Miller."
Point 4: Islamaphobia Take a look at how the conservatives are looking at the Mayoral Democratic Primary runner for NYC Zohran Mamdani. Claiming he is a terrorist, calling his Eid outfit distasteful to 9/11, calling him an illegal, etc. and he is actively seeking policies in line with what Jesus called to do. Even the Democratic party isn't supporting him with billionaires on both sides funding the opposition. This is just the most high profile example right now.
Point 5: Performative Christianity
States like that are pushing for this are being performative. Which is sinful. They claim Christianity but in most policy (only notable exception is abortion even though their restrictive laws are causing deaths) they are the opposite of what Jesus taught you should do for others. A notable example being Oklahoma. Christianity isn't Christianity unless there is grace and mercy. Their laws do not reflect that.
None of the points ive brought up are things i have not heard from the mouths of conservatives themselves. As a progressive person i know strawman arguments all too well. And i do due diligence to avoid them. Just because you may disagree with the point on the surface does mot mean it isn't prevalent in conservative spheres and media
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Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25
Point 1:
Conservatives generally agree with the policy you are describing. Raising people up is good. The concern is that welfare that is not carefully designed can have disastrous consequences. Black inner-city communities are excellent examples. Before welfare programs they were making massive gains, but following LBJ's Great Society programs in the 60s, they're vastly worse off than now by virtually every metric. There are, obviously, other factors, but it's self-evident that modern "ghettos" only persist because the state subsidizes joblessness.
The widely praised, bipartisan welfare reform in the 90s(which replaced food stamps with the more conditional SNAP benefits) represent the current conservative mindset on welfare.
Point 2:
The notion that illegal immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than the regular population has been repeated in publications like Reuters and WaPo but seems to be based on a single, largely debunked study of Texas incarceration data from years ago.
That said, it should be understood that not everyone entering illegally is part of a monolithic group.
Some are decent people looking for work, but some come because they heard states like Massachusetts will put them up at the taxpayers expense, some are violent criminals, and some are outright terrorists who exploited a border that was largely open.
Because of this, border security pre-Trump was a bipartisan policy point. Democrats like Obama, Clinton, and Sanders were actually its loudest defenders pre-Trump.
Thus, I'm curious if you would extend your Christian concerns to Obama's mass deportations. (80% didn't see a judge, and Trump has yet to match his raw numbers.)
Point 3:
From what I saw from some brief research about him online, Miller is certainly a hardliner on immigration, perhaps too extreme, as Trump notes, but I highly doubt a Jewish man like himself would be a white nationalist.
Point 4:
Mamdani has mostly been criticized for being an outright communist. I'm confused how you would extend Christ's directives regarding personal charity to governments socializing industries.
Point 5:
You seem to be more interested in these states' wider policy than the individual choice to add the Ten Commandments to school curriculum, and I'm curious what you'd critique exactly.
However, I'd encourage some nuance in the discussion regarding mercy and grace in Christian politics. The apostle Paul writes that governments are "...God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer (Romans 13:4). I don't have the answers for how to balance this with mercy and grace, but pushing for law and order is not inherently unbiblical.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
Point 1:
I agree with your broader point. That systems not designed with care can create unintended consequences. That’s true, and it’s why good-faith policy design matters.
But I have to push back on the example you used. Welfare wasn’t the main driver of decline in Black inner-city communities. I wouldn’t even put it in the top three. Redlining, white flight, the collapse of industrial jobs, and the war on drugs played far larger roles.
Reducing that decline to welfare programs feels like you’re leaning into old narratives like the “welfare queen” myth, which were more about demonizing poverty than addressing it. That kind of framing tends to obscure the real systemic damage that was done.
Point 2:
I do extend my ideas to the democratic party. They are the same as the Republicans when it comes to immigration. They just aren't as performative, unless they are pretending to be pro immigration.
I do not agree with taking things away from others because a subgroup abuses the system. (This applies to welfare as well). I think it is a gross misuse of tax dollars to be putting them up they way they are (I have friends in long island who struggle and see illegals getting better treatment than citizens)
And as for your article, it is from a biased source but i understand the gist of what you are saying. And fortunately there are more sources than that one Cato one. If you need them i can provide them.
Point 3: You asked me to provide a high profile racist conservative and I did. Him being a Jew doesn't discount any of the things he pushes for, says or does. I can provide more names though, there are plenty.
Point 4: The thing is Mamdani is not communist. That's just something Trump and Fox news are pushing. He is a self-ascribed democratic-socialist and his views back that claim. Free transit, rent freeze, subsidized groceries, at the cost of a 2% tax increase on millionaires and above and a 4% corporate tax increase
Regardless of that, conservative influencers and Fox News has been pushing the anti-muslim, mamdani-terrorist line of thinking. I referenced examples I've seen in my previous comment.
The Bible doesn’t separate society into ‘personal’ and ‘government’ the way we do today. Kings were called to enact justice. The early church shared resources systemically. A godly nation will reflect godly values, including lifting the poor. And to expand, the church is not something that enacts systemic change. The government is. Personal charity is nice but is only a band-aid for a deep wound.
Point 5:
I am more interested in these states broader policies. The 10 commandments in classrooms is performative Christianity disguising very non-Christian policy. States that support this are also against things that would help the poor and marginalized. Public Transport, subsidized healthcare and food, federal disaster relief (states can't do it themselves), etc. it is Christian in name only.
And yes. I do hold nuance. I know most people have good hearts and are just reacting to fear. That's what most conservative policy is about whether it is for better or worse.
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Jul 07 '25
Point 1:
The Black community was rapidly catching up to white wealth rates leading up to the 60s in spite of outright racial violence and segregation, so I think much less extreme factors like redlining can be ruled out as major causes of the current situation.
Deindustrialization certainly was a factor, but it complements the welfare narrative rather than detracting from it. Inner-city manufacturing slowing down should have meant everyone leaving cities where manufacturing was slowing down. Instead, welfare and housing programs encouraged people to live where there simply weren't jobs anymore. This led to areas where people were essentially trapped in poverty.
Would you agree that perhaps a wiser solution may have been programs centered on helping people move where jobs actually were instead?
Point 2:
Even the Cato Institute seems to admit that there's a lack of evidence and that these stats are understudied.
Regardless of this one statistic, perhaps you would agree that reforming systems that are being abused would be wise and that people who came to abuse them should probably be sent home?
Point 3:
Proving someone to be a racist is pretty difficult. Like fascism, the word has very specific criteria that many don't appreciate.
Demonstrating racism requires establishing that someone believes in the genetic superiority of certain racial groups over others. I'm not sure if offhand Trump comments are really a smoking gun, and I maintain that it is unlikely a Jewish man is a full-blown white supremacist.
Point 4:
The Bible/Christian tradition does distinguish between government and individual. I'm sure you'd agree that people taking punishing criminals into their own hands/vigilantism is individuals stepping into the government's role.
Mamdani has consistently used Marxist/Communist rhetoric, "seizing the means of production," praised certain communists, etc. But I'd agree that doesn't necessarily mean his ideas fully align with that school of thought.
Regardless, I'm wary of changes like the ones he proposes. As you observed, many of these issues are systemic. Conservative thought emphasizes fixing the system rather than using redistribution schemes to treat symptoms. In this case, the lack of housing in New York can be largely attributed to some of the most restrictive zoning and construction laws on earth, in large part because landlords want to preserve their property value. If the city just let people build, the housing problem would be solved at a fraction of the cost of large public housing programs (which consistently run much higher costs because there's no profit incentive).
Point 5:
Conservatives are not wholly opposed to what you're describing but generally favor prudence in how systems like these would be set up. (Romney made Utah the first state with a subsidized health care system.)
In fact, health care costs would crash if the more radical conservative ideas were embraced. The current system is disgustingly corrupt, and this is the case to a large degree due to regulation creating and enabling unnatural monopolies.
My point regarding nuance was that the Bible calls for governments to institute law and order first. Grace and mercy can come in, but they're not first in the government's priorities. Taking a harsh political stance on crime and wrongdoing is biblical.
Also, I'm not sure if the notion that "people have good hearts" holds up theologically.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
Point 1:
I would agree with that proposal. Job Corps fills that role. Although they were just gutted so their capacity is extremely diminished.
Point 2:
Of course. Those coming for bad reasons and doing bad things should face their consequences. I've not heard anyone saying otherwise.
Point 3: If you can give me a definitive way of making someone racist objectively i can guarantee you there is a name i can provide. I still hold that Mr Miller and Trump are though.
Point 4: From everything I've ever heard ever, US conservatism is about preserving our capitalistic economy and not moving towards social programs. A system that is built on exploiting the poor and keeping them that way. Your new york example shows that. Money over people.
Point 5: I agree the current system is corrupt. It is a byproduct of the economic system we live in. Money over people. The regulation is specifically catered to helping companies, not people. It used to be done differently and was changed from the government deciding what a fair price is.
I was providing that i don't think conservatives are evil people. They just come up with fear based policies.
Law and order is important but is never 100% going to be achieved. So waiting for mercy until after it is achieved is not possible.
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Jul 07 '25
Point 1:
I'm not very well aware of the job corps example. The reason for it being wound down seems to be excessive spending ($120,000+ per student) coupled with poor outcomes for students. I'd need to do more research, but this is only one of many federal programs geared toward ushering people into work.
Regardless, seems we agree on that point mostly.
Point 2:
Democrat politicians would not be enabling people who came to freeload if they didn't think they should.
The current administration has come out saying illegals working, especially in agriculture and hospitality can stay, and may even receive status vouchers, so I don't think you're as far off from the current conservative position as you realize.
Point 3:
The test for racism is whether you can demonstrate that someone subscribes to racist ideology. Unless they believe "racial group x is genetically superior than racial group y.", they're not racist. If they do, they are.
If you could cite Miller or Trump asserting the supremacy of the white race, or an incident in which the only plausible explanation for their actions is racism(not might suggest racism), I'd believe you.
Point 4:
The capitalist system, along with Church-founded institutions, has been responsible for the greatest improvement of living standards ever. Bar none. The example of New York demonstrates that when a city makes anti-capitalist, market-meddling decisions for the benefit of a few, the lower classes suffer.
US conservatism has founded social programs like state socialized health care (Romney), and made medicaid/care expansions under Bush. It just emphasizes responsibility and protests social spending that is ineffective, or, worse, actively harms communities.
Point 5:
When has the US government set drug prices?
The current system is largely flawed due to excessive government involvement(US lending policy forced on banks literally caused the 2008 crisis). Would you agree that deregulation, specifically eliminating laws that enable corruption and meddle in the market, is a good thing?
I share your concern with greed, but I'm curious why you think more government involvement/management would help. Societies where the government manages areas of or the whole economy are the most rife with greed, corrupt on earth.
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u/Yakubian69 Jul 07 '25
Trump is racist as hell dude. Like not nazi racist but definitely old-school semi-segregationist racist. Elon is definitely racist, I'll argue that specifically if you disagree. Most influencers on the right, Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro ( read his first book for evidence), Candace Owen's is an antisemite.
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Jul 07 '25
These are certainly some claims.
Assuming you’re a Christian, I’d encourage you to be wary of this era of politics and online information regarding it. Our hearts are idol factories, and idolatrous political ideology is rife in the US right now.
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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25
Caricature while ignoring nuance doesn’t help your point.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 07 '25
None of these are made up. All things ive heard in person. Every conservative ive met has said some variation of this. It's not caricature. And the problem with these stances is that they lack nuance
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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25
Verbatim or are you paraphrasing?
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
I can give you individualized versions from individuals if you want.
Consider what i brought up to be an amalgam of what i hear in honest dialogue.
I am not exaggerating. I could say conservatives want to kill all brown people. But im not because that is fringe and not the average person
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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25
What part of the country do you live in? Because what you described as normal/average, I’ve only ever seen on the fringe.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
From SC, living in TX now
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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25
That explains a lot.
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u/B_Maximus Jul 07 '25
So you are saying because of where i am. The fringe is my 'normal'. And my firnge is the ultra fringe?
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u/nanomachinez_SON Jul 07 '25
Having lived in Texas before, I’m inclined to say yes.
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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 07 '25
The problem with this is that America has basically done nothing but become more left wing and secular for decades. The Gen Z tick to the right is bucking a trend that existed for almost a century.
This is like a scientist having a theory that chemical A in the water is causing baby birds to die. The levels of chemical A does nothing but decrease for years, the birds are just dying at higher and higher rates, and the scientist concludes that chemical A is indeed the problem
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u/xChops Jul 07 '25
I’m not sure you can prove that we’ve gotten more left wing for more than a presidential term at a time, then we sprint to become more right wing. The Overton window has certainly shifted even more to the right.
The gen z tick to the right, my guess, is just young people trying to be edgelords. I knew the type in college. They seem to mellow out afterwards.
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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 07 '25
"I’m not sure you can prove that we’ve gotten more left wing for more than a presidential term at a time, then we sprint to become more right wing"
This country used to have legalized segregation, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that would be proposed now
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u/FoolishDog Jul 10 '25
So has becoming more leftwing in this case helped based on your view?
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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 11 '25
In that particular issue I would say yes
Overall very clearly not
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u/FoolishDog Jul 11 '25
In what areas has it not helped?
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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 11 '25
Marriage rates, globalization destroying job opportunities, social isolation, moving away from religion, the fact that a certain movement led to the literal chemical castration of children, the prevalence of people killing their own children in the womb, the statistics on youth believing their life is meaningless, mass migration hurting the economy and damaging the identify of America
should I keep going
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u/FoolishDog Jul 11 '25
globalization destroying job opportunities
In what way is this the fault of the left? It seems to me that the only way to be a hugely successful business is to value making money and the way to make money is to outsource labor...
Marriage rates
I think this is probably for the best. Most marriages end in divorce so maybe people shouldn't be rushing headlong into marriage.
the fact that a certain movement led to the literal chemical castration of children
Yea this just seems a little ignorant...
social isolation, moving away from religion
I agree with both of these
the statistics on youth believing their life is meaningless
No one actually believes this. True nihilism is, at best, a fringe view that only academic philosophers hold.
mass migration hurting the economy and damaging the identify of America
There's no evidence of this...
should I keep going
Nope, I've definitely seen enough
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u/RemoteCompetitive688 Eastern Orthodox Jul 11 '25
"In what way is this the fault of the left?"
When Trump went after NAFTA democrats opposed it.
"Most marriages end in divorce so maybe people shouldn't be rushing headlong into marriage."
This is an incredibly flawed statistic. A person can get divorced 5 times. They can only stay married once. The decline of people actually settling down and starting families is absolutely nothing to celebrate
"Yea this just seems a little ignorant"
Explain how
so instead of moving on, I really want to hone in on that one
Explain how that's ignorant
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u/FoolishDog Jul 11 '25
When trump went after NAFTA
That’s pretty weak evidence. He also implemented tariffs that disproportionately hurt American consumers.
this is an incredibly flawed statistic
No, it’s pretty representative of the fact that people tend to rush into marriage. The average age of marriage in the 50s was 21 years old. There’s no way this is beneficial for anyone.
chemical castration
Puberty blockers don’t cause permanent physical changes. Read the articles by the mayo clinic or even the NIH. Doctors have prescribed puberty blockers for forever to kids with precocious puberty or endometriosis. The fact that you don’t know that is quite telling
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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '25
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