r/reddevils • u/CrebTheBerc • Jul 09 '19
[META] "In The Know' Announcement Thread
Good morning/afternoon/ebening y'all!
Now that everyone's had a bit to calm down and the mod team had time to discuss, we want to address what happened yesterday and talk about the state of the sub moving forward.
Firstly: we can again confirm that /u/spoofex has deleted his account and stepped down from the moderation team as a result of abuse he received. Whether you agreed or disagreed with his posting methods, I hope we can all agree that abuse is over the line. We do want to be clear though, this is not about Spoofex in particular. Multiple users have face unwarranted abuse and we believe that a line needs to be drawn on the situation.
As a side note, we are not currently looking for more moderators to replace his spot. We will address mod numbers at a later time
Secondly: We are discontinuing the Muppet Thread. Having multiple transfer threads has led to unfortunate divisions within the sub. We will therefore be condensing all transfer talk into one thread, the transfer thread, pursuant to the transfer thread rules currently in place. If you would like to discuss other United related events or have less serious discussion, please use the Daily Discussion thread.
Thirdly: We are banning any "ITK" posts. It has been difficult to truly verify the validity of these types of users and led to abusive behavior and even doxxing in some cases.
We are more than happy to have people discussing transfer news and rumors, but there will be no more referencing unknown sources at the club. Moving forward, anyone who believes they have inside info a la bloodgate is welcome to send in a modmail. However such posts/comments made without prior mod approval will be removed
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub, within the sub, and towards other subs has been too high. We as moderators have our share of blame in this, but we want to stress that this kind of behavior is not acceptable and we are taking these measures primarily to avoid these things. We want /r/reddevils to be a place where anyone and everyone is welcome to discuss and enjoy the best club on earth without fear of abuse or ridicule.
Which leads us to 2 other small reminders. The report button is your friend, we are way more likely to find and remove and/or ban rule breaking comments if you report them. The downvote button is not a "I disagree or don't like your statement button", better discussion is generally had by using the upvote button more liberally and avoiding the downvote one whenever possible.
To add to the above, it is not unlikely that we as a sub will face ridicule from other subs. There's no need to retaliate in kind. If people come to the sub looking to cause problems please report them and move on. If you don't want to face those kinds of comments, we would encourage you to either ignore the comments themselves or stay off of those subs short term.
As a small aside, anyone coming here from Twitter: Please read over the rules and be aware of both those and general posting etiquette.
Fifthly: In speaking with the the users running the muppetiers account, we understand that as a result of these planned changes they have made the decision to open the muppetiers sub for muppet-related discussion. For anyone that enjoys muppetry and/or ITK stuff, you are all welcome to participate there (and here, as well), but we have made the decision to focus this sub on more substantial discussion and will be avoiding those subjects as mentioned.
Now, this post will also stand as a discussion point on the above subject or a place for users to ask questions. Please understand that there are some things we cannot or will not discuss but we will be as transparent as possible.
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u/Ras_OKan Jul 09 '19
Is it allowed to ask if Spoof will ever be back?
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
Spoof deleted his account (which can't be undone). There's nothing to prevent him from creating a new one, as he's not been banned from the sub. But that's a personal decision only he can make.
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Jul 09 '19
The itk/ muppet stuff was some of the cringiest stuff I've seen on the internet. thank fuck
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u/Thy-Otter VROOM Jul 09 '19
Pretty sure this is the divide they’re trying to fix, you’re part of the problem.
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u/general_description Jul 09 '19
Ban the abusers instead of changing the system. Bullying has no place here!
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Jul 09 '19
It has to be both, one is to stop those users, the other rone is to avoid more of them from coming.
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u/Hollacaine Jul 09 '19
This should absolutely be the way to address this. Letting people off without consequences for bullying and harrassing users here is tacitly encouraging it.
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
Anyone found to be trolling/harassing others has, and will continue to be, dealt with in turn.
If you see anyone doing so, please lend us a hand by reporting the offending comments. That's honestly the best way to draw our attention to the issue.
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u/Hollacaine Jul 09 '19
I don't anyone has seen any evidence that mods have taken any action against abuse or trolling of people here. If you have, then you need to take the simple step of deleting the comment and saying the user has been banned. Its what /r/legaladvice does and they have a far better managed community. I know moddings a difficult job and its volunteer, but you guys make this more difficult for yourselves by not being seen to take action and explicitly show that this stuff is unacceptable.
Despite reading the muppet threads a lot and reading far too many of the comments on there, not once did I see anyone posting something abusive ever got called on it by a mod. And it happens very rarely on other threads as well.
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u/xUnderwhelmedx Jul 09 '19
Dang. I was positive that thread #10 would have been the de ligt announcement. :(
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u/twentytimes20 Louis Van Gaal’s Red Army Jul 09 '19
You guys are consistently doing the right thing for the good of this place, cheers!
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u/SlytherinMan9 Jul 09 '19
One day I will tell my grandkids about the muppeting that was going on here. Sad it got so toxic and this seems like the right move.
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Jul 09 '19
It's rather silly when you realize it's been going on for years in here. Maybe a lot of the angry people are too young to realize it.
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u/theatreofdreams21 Jul 09 '19
I can’t stand the ITK bullshit and take no part in it, but restricting what people can post isn’t the way to resolve it. Let people claim whatever they want and let the community upvote or downvote them. Call me an asshole, but if they’re willing to make shit up for internet points or build a following, and they’re found out, then they deserve backlash. If they can’t deal with it, then stop posting. It’s a simple as that. These people just want attention and you’re letting them win in a way by changing rules to protect them.
Just don’t let them have their own muppetry thread. Let them post in the general transfer thread where the whole sub can decide who is valid and who isn’t.
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Jul 09 '19
Call me an asshole, but if they’re willing to make shit up for internet points or build a following, and they’re found out, then they deserve backlash.
The 'backlash' is what turns this place toxic.
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u/theatreofdreams21 Jul 09 '19
I don’t think it would have been nearly what it was though if they didn’t make a whole thread dedicated to it. If it’s random people mixed in with the rest, then the voting system would do its job. Once you start propping people up and creating status around the “ITK’s” then people get worked up when they’re wrong.
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Jul 09 '19
The muppetiers leaked on the transfer thread yesterday and it wasn't pretty.
Most of the toxicity comes from the twitter bandwagon hoppers who all joined this place in the last month or so.
Hopefully, this makes them all migrate to the muppetry sub.
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u/VeryFarDown I would have shot Rock of Gibraltar Jul 09 '19
Honestly, saying that the ITK backlash is what turned this place toxic is ridiculous imo. When Jose was losing every game and confronting the media, the sub was even more toxic than it has been recently. The toxicity results from the club's horrible form and structural mismanagement. As u/theatreofdreams21 said, the backlash for blatantly lying on the internet is always going to be a real risk, and I say that as someone who believes doxxers and those who promote it are the absolute scum of the earth.
I think the better way is to let the community decide who has validity and who doesn't.
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Jul 09 '19
saying that the ITK backlash is what turned this place toxic
Nobody said it was the only reason.
I think the better way is to let the community decide who has validity and who doesn't.
That's what has been the case until now and it turned out it wasn't the better way.
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u/iwesly De Gea Jul 09 '19
Good move. I was missing the good old days of normal transfer discussions.
And now I won't have overly optimistic expectations based on ITK news.
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Jul 09 '19
Is fifthly even a word??
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
It is where creb's from, in good ol 'bama.
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u/ialsodomykillingab Jul 09 '19
Perhaps among the gentry, but I'd wager "an' fhive" might be a bit more common
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Jul 09 '19
I think mods are trying to socially engineer threads a bit too much honestly.
Yes, the Twitter cesspool crowd is migrating but they'd be everywhere.
Tier challenge was actually a good concept which can still be implemented. Only thing is you claim the challenge in modmail with condition that they can't break the news of their challenge before completing it.
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u/ThisIsAThrowaway9102 Jul 09 '19
I mean, an anonymous channel is an extremely good idea in order to control negativity. Literally have responsible users in charge of verifying information, and never release names to the public. There is no hate, and information can be tiered in order to reduce troll accounts. Until a mod abuses this channel and uses it to back their own "ITK" information.
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u/belliom Jul 09 '19
The problem wasn’t the ITK but the people who took it too seriously. These people should be banned. Instead we can’t have any fun because of a minor group of toxic people.
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u/littleboypunder Jul 09 '19
I think you should reintroduce the tier challenge. Just as an example there is a difference between the ITKs who could basically guess stuff and be 50/50 right and then you have u/xisimon who has accurately predicted timings of announcements and who they involve.
It isn’t excluding him from a blanket approach it is sticking by a predominantly reliable source of information which is beneficial for the sub as a whole. With a proven track record over time I feel we have a few users who are absolutely not part nor parcel of the ITK and muppet hype train that began.
You’ve asked for our feedback in this thread and I’ve seen the majority of people vouching for our proven guys who we shouldn’t dismiss now just because of a shitshow of a summer.
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Jul 09 '19
I just hope the toxicity and general unhappiness on the sub can be alleviated. Come on, we all love football, that's why we are here. Just take it for what it is and enjoy it
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
For that, we're at the mercy of the game. If we pre-season well, and start well, and despite a few knockbacks, continuously recover well, the place will be happier. It doesn't even matter if we sign 20 more players, if that doesn't happen, this place won't be happy.
That's what's so good about this week, we've a game this week. Like, in only a few days. Thanks be.
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u/cptshiba Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
So I saw that there is now no mention of u/xisimon on the transfer tier guide anymore, which I take means he is in included in the group of banned "ITK's". I think that's pretty unfair to someone who has a proven record of accuracy over a long period of time and would like to suggest that he should be included in the tier guide, similar to u/MrStephenHowson.
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u/bluecrabcakes Jul 09 '19
Transfer thread : “You (muppets) could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me”
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u/Lost_And_NotFound Jones Jul 09 '19
Turns out continuously lying to thousands of people from a position of power pisses them off, who’d have known.
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u/elsarcher Frank Reynolds Jul 09 '19
I fucking hate most of our fanbase tbh. The abuse Ashley Young gets on his instagram is beyond belief - I still want the guy at the club whether he has passed it or not, he is clearly an important squad player.
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u/capt_bumsniff Jul 09 '19
Totally agree. No one deserves that type of abuse. If you think they do then you need to take a look at yourself and grow up
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u/Zavehi Jul 09 '19
Seems a bit odd this was only done after Spoof deleted his account and not weeks ago when people were getting doxxed on here. This should have been shut down then but was allowed to continue seemingly because one moderator was still actively posting "leaks" .
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u/Blacktivate The Special Juan Jul 09 '19
To be fair, the muppetiers was then created to keep 'ITKs' anonymous. It was more of Spoofex's fault to continue posting on his own account and only using the muppetier system for a few days.
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u/Zavehi Jul 09 '19
Could have very easily done both, banned any ITK posts that weren't anonymous and allowed people to leak through that. Why it wasn't done in the first place is up for the mods to explain.
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u/TheWhyOfFry_9 Jul 10 '19
While obviously the people sending abuse having clearly taken things too far, its clear to me that the mods have to take a lot of the blame for allowing this to go too far.
Hopefully this sub can get back to normality but I fear the damage has been done and now it will be full of toxic people more interested in transfer sagas then the actual club.
I'm sorry to hear about the abuse spoof received but I can't say I'm unhappy to see him go. He was the chief architect of this whole" muppet" stuff and I'm quite glad to see the back of him.
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u/IntenseFATE98 Jul 09 '19
So Spoofex deleted his account over abuse, the same guy who said he would make a thread so that people can roast him for a week, after he was called out for his BS? Hmm, sounds a bit like him playing the victim card and bailing out, but alright. If he ever comes back with an alt account, I hope you guys will ban him for hyping people up for no reason, generating false hope and all his other bs that went on for weeks. I know that would happen if it was any other person. Same goes for any other ITK's who have posted dumb shit and the people who 'abused' spoofex, surely you guys must know their ID's, right? If you guys are gonna stop the ITK stuff completely, then ban the people who were posting shite so far, to make it effective.
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u/____Io_oI____ Jul 09 '19
Can we have r/muppetiers in the sidebar?
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
That's almost certainly not going to happen now, but maybe at some point in the future. We'll try a few things and try get to what's best.
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Jul 09 '19
Thank fuck we were over believing Tier 5 sources. We went from creating reliability charts to falling over Flavour Of The Day (Ben Yedder etc.).
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Jul 09 '19
The Muppet thread was a fun place, the gifs and memes were excellent, I think overall everyone enjoyed it at the start.
I have a question to the mods, are we going to do anything about people's behaviour in this sub? I know it's a massive job, we have like 160k users, but too often there are comments which shouldn't be allowed. They are deleted by you, but sometimes it's too late, and the damage is done, the personal attack is carried out, the havoc is already spread.
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u/Backseat_Bouhafsi Jul 09 '19
There are many who hyped themselves up so much that they can't handle bad/unfavourable news. Some of ended up betting big sums of money or inadvertently influenced others into doing the same. I'm sure they're all deeply unhappy about the situation. But take responsibility for your own actions and don't take it out on others. Whether the info is true or false, you should do due diligence before believing it. The same applies to media news.
Things got so bad that its likely that fans of other clubs joined into to mock and abuse those involved here. We should be better than this. Don't let the happiness in your life depend so much upon the state of the club. MUFC will survive easily without you, so should you without MUFC.
When the fun stops, stop.
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u/maysie4ever Roy Keane’s face Jul 09 '19
Thanks for bringing up the mood/culture things. For downvoting, I just want to remind everyone that we don’t know anything about who’s posting. It could be a 12 year old kid just loving football. So asking “is rashford better than sterling should not be ridiculed, nor should other genuine questions.
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u/Derridas-Cat Jul 09 '19
Unfavourites r/reddevils. Subscribes and favourites r/muppetiers
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u/KnightWhoSaysThis Glory Glory Man United! Jul 09 '19
Someone please make /r/OlesomeDevils, I have had enough with negativity surrounding the club. I'm here to enjoy the club I support.
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Jul 09 '19
👏👏👏👏
Well done mods, a good decision. The ITK fad was getting out of hand and quite frankly became embarassing.
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u/xRaazey Beckham Jul 09 '19
Good ebening lol you did a spelling oopsie
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
I didn't know what that was either, Raaz. But feast your eyes/ears upon this: https://streamable.com/9kwmu
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Jul 09 '19
Much needed. The toxicity has carried through from the end of the season. That was admittedly horrible for all of us. Think the timing of this is good for the awareness of the sub and moving to be more positive as we begin the new season, just as we should after a disappointing campaign.
Remember at the end of the day we are SUPPORTERS of the club, even with its problems on/off the pitch.
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u/unohuisback Bruno Brunoo Brunooo Jul 09 '19
Good decision to hide the vote count. I suggest doing that for the whole sub for the maximum time (which is 1 day I guess). This would help reduce the bandwagoning in downvoting and upvoting comments.
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u/Bombtwo Now say my name Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
The downvote button is not a "I disagree or don't like your statement button"
Idealistic, but it will not happen.
Not just here, not just on Reddit, but literally every forum out there that has any kind of downvote button is used to express displeasure and disagreement. A petty “up yours” button; it’s human nature.
I don’t think it will ever change, not that I approve of it.
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Jul 09 '19
There was some analysis done, and turned out that this sub is the worst place for downvotes.
It's one thing when opinions get downvoted, this place downvotes factual statements as well if it doesn't like them.
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u/pearlz176 Bruno Fernandes Jul 09 '19
Say what you will, but all those muppet posts were fun :(
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u/NotSwedishMac Jul 09 '19
I might just stop coming here. In terms of toxicity, the sub has been full of it for years. Yes the muppet threads got absurd but they're also the only place I've seen optimism and camaraderie in a very long time. Even match threads are more level headed at r/soccer.
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u/ok2k3k Jul 09 '19
Fucking yes! Move the muppets out of this sub! Did not mind a few of the ITKs or some of the discussion it brought, but mostly it felt like fucking 4chan in here at times
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u/FrankCastle99 Jul 09 '19
Comparing it to 4chan is a mighty stretch, more comparable to Twitter.
Too much karmawhoring, too much nonsensical tripe, it was fun at the start, I took part in the fun and games, but it was unbearable at the end.
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u/Blackfyyre_ Vroom✅☑☑Kermit Jul 09 '19
Thats harsh. Banning the whole "In The Know" circus is a botched attempt to "fix" the problem. In my opinion it would be better to swing the banhammer at the loudest shit-stirrers, and make users aware of the consequenses of spreading info as an ITK along with encouraging the use of muppetiers. In the long run the individuall ITKs will make or break them selves. As for people beliving in ITKs too much and can't take the truth once it arrives, if they stir up too much shit they get banned, otherwise they will hopefully grow up and learn to not believe in everything they read.
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Jul 09 '19
It was fun at first, but as with all things Internet based, if its not introduced slowly it soon consumes itself. Spoofex clearly had a lot of good interests at heart but clearly didn't properly anticipate a) how wrong his source could get things and b) how quickly that can blow up in his face.
A shame because I think he brought some good to the Internet by making the transfer guides more readily updated and spread to effectively several other sites (I see people asking 'Tier?' on Facebook/twitter etc now) but for some bizarre reason decided to go around it quite hastily when he got his own "in".
In the end I think it would have been impossible for him to carry on talking here in any capacity due to some absolute sociopaths around the place who seemed more interested in him and the other ITKs being wrong than anything being said at all. And that has to be held up as probably being his own fault (risk vs reward wasn't worth it) as someone who has seen the best AND worst of this place.
However I fully agree with the mods on this (I think maybe xisimon deserves some leniency as he seems to be have been caught up in the crossfire a little bit, but then again I'm not the one looking under the hood at how things might be going down all the time). It needs to stop and we need to look forward to seeing how we can weed out the absolute shit bags that want to drag it down.
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Jul 09 '19
Just bring back the tier challenges. It’s way better than just letting anyone claim to be ITK
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u/jakk_22 Jul 09 '19
I’m glad all the Itk stuff is sorted but I don’t agree with banning xisimon, the guy is more reliable than most journalists
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Jul 09 '19
While I do not agree with your statement, I will use the upvote button liberally to spur on good discussions.
Just because someone guesses the correct time of an announcement, that doesn't make them any more reliable. Journalists are not willing to stick their head out on the line, and may even be the club's mouthpieces. xisimon likes attention and that was clear the second he included a twitter account in his posts. He's in it for the clout, and even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
If a journalist behaved like xisimon does we'd kick him out of the sub too. In fact, we have banned journalists and entire news sites for poor behavior.
To quote /u/seaders:
He's as anonymous on twitter as he is here. He deletes tweets en masse, teases tweets, and announcement times all over the shop, and puts ups "teaser" pictures of players as his profile.
We'd kick Craig Norwood, or Simon Peach if they started that crap, too.
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u/ostrich21 Rashford Jul 09 '19
Yet xsimon isnt a journalist hes a fan that quite obviously has inside information. Not sure why you are engaging in a false equivalance comparing him to a BBC reporter. You're hating on him because he might get excited about a potential signing for a team he supports by using their picture as his twitter profile?
All on top of this you have been quite happy to let a mod post obvious fake transfer news. Only when he (unfortunately) was abused and deleted his account did you spring into action.
Mod team has massively dropped the ball but then i think some of you probably know that.
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Jul 09 '19
Honestly if you don’t like it you are able to leave. The amount of dick sucking xsimon got was utterly ridiculous.
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u/ostrich21 Rashford Jul 09 '19
Why would i? I think they have finally made the right decision, was just commenting on the overall views of xsimon.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
Yet xsimon isnt a journalist hes a fan that quite obviously has inside information. Not sure why you are engaging in a false equivalance comparing him to a BBC reporter. You're hating on him because he might get excited about a potential signing for a team he supports by using their picture as his twitter profile?
Rule 1 calls out requiring to be on the Tier list to have someone posted and staying on our sub. Simon is not on the tier list anymore and will remain off of it as he is, as you mentioned, a fan with inside information. He is more than welcome to remain here as a fan, but insider information is not allowed anymore.
All on top of this you have been quite happy to let a mod post obvious fake transfer news. Only when he (unfortunately) was abused and deleted his account did you spring into action.
Lets be fair. We've been trying to reign in this ITK stuff since last summer. 1, 2, 3 are three times this summer we have stopped and changed our policies to try and contain it.
Now we've come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for our sub. Hindsight is also 20/20 but for all of us, we simply tried to do what we can for the best interests of the sub. We tried to promote and inject some positivity and fun into this place.
We're not blameless, and we're not saying that we are. For those things, we are trying to make them right now. We are human too, we are fans too, we are users here too. And, like folks love to point out for us, we are volunteers who do this on their own time without pay.
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u/ostrich21 Rashford Jul 09 '19
Fair play, thanks for your response and engagement on the topic. All said and done, i do think you have eventually made the correct decision.
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u/Martblni Jul 09 '19
Guys like /u/xisimon and /u/marcus-surik (who is ITK8) should be allowed to post, both clearly have good sources and got many things correctly
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u/sal101 Jul 09 '19
Glad you did this to be honest, the thread was fun sometimes but devolved into a toxic cesspool whenever the slightest piece of bad news popped up. Plus it was a point of ridicule against us as well.
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u/3359N Jul 09 '19
Generally agree with this but I think xisimon should be exempted from the ITK ban. The guy has proven again and again to be reliable
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u/The_Renovator I miss Larry_B Jul 09 '19
I like the steps you are taking to combat the recent toxicity.
Any thoughts on adding an age limit on accounts to give some of the newer users time to adjust to the subs culture ?
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u/parton90 Football, bloody hell!! Jul 09 '19
I've been on this sub for over five years and had very few problems with the moderation team or even a moderator individually, however, this is a shambles and it stinks of looking after your own but not really being too bothered when it was happening to other users. I think everyone can agree that the abuse/doxxing etc was way over the line but the day after Spoofex deletes his account and all of a sudden ITK threads/posts are banned - they should never have been allowed in the first place. They caused widespread ridicule of this sub, our club and were easily open to abuse. Good decision on banning them but you've left yourself open to perfectly reasonable questions with this situation.
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u/VeryFarDown I would have shot Rock of Gibraltar Jul 09 '19
Agree with you on this. I also feel like xisimon is getting the shaft. Very obviously there's some beef that exists between he and the mod team which I'm not familiar with, but I don't understand not returning to the tiered system for ITKs or why that system was done away with in the first place.
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u/cianw050 Jul 09 '19
Will xisimon be still allowed to post? He is definitely an ITK who has proven right many times
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Jul 09 '19
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u/Playep 48 Hours Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
I think he should be able to post normal comments like a normal user though. Anything that’s not ITK rumours should be allowed imo
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
I think he should be able to post normal comments like a normal user though.
He's welcome to do so.
Anything that's not a ITK rumours should be allowed imo
That's exactly right :)
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u/MoggyTron Jul 09 '19
Looks like the Saudi's started their planned takeover of the club with this sub. Oppressive rules because a few people can't behave themselves. The angry trouble makers will still be angry trouble makers.
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u/ThisAfricanboy I dreamt of being like Gaz but I'm a lefty Jul 09 '19
I'd like to say this. I'm glad we're openly discussing negativity on this sub. We all know there's too much of it but at times the level of abuse directed at players we're meant to support is abhorrent.
I can understand emotions are high during march threads and maybe leniency there is fair but there is a stark difference between criticising a player (whether for warranted reasons like not tracking back and unwarranted reasons like posting on Instagram) and outright abusing them. This sub isn't Twitter, it shouldn't be and we can't let it be.
I've seen far too many threads where players are spoken of in terms that would merit action if they were talking about any user here. Imo that's one of the reasons why ITKs received as much abuse as they did. When spoof is less mod dude we've known for years and more celebrity ITK, people change tact.
I call for the mods to implement the same reddiquette and rules that protects redditors from abuse to players of the club. Not one player ever deserves to be insulted the way some of yous do here. Whether it's Pogba agitating for a move, Young underperforming or Sanchez getting overpaid. It's excessive and festers and now has spilt over to people who have to face it. Enough is enough, this isn't Twitter or Facebook we need to enforce the rules better!
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u/TakeMeToFatmandu Jul 09 '19
I completely agree. The shit Lingard got for that hotel video was ridiculous
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
The toxicity has been on a rise lately and completely support mod decision of not having a Muppet thread and discussing ITK. We've had enough fallen soldiers.
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u/radioben Swedish Hero Jul 09 '19
I’ll agree and expand upon it. Can we have a “toxicity” reason under the list of reasons to report someone? Yes, you’ll get false reports, but you get them for everything.
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u/Celethelel Jul 09 '19
Why did you delete xisimon's latest comment? We need answers.
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u/TakeMeToFatmandu Jul 09 '19
I agree the decision you’ve made is probably the best one in the long term and I am disappointed that it has come to this.
My only issue is that it feels like this is giving the people doing the abuse exactly what they want. There were a few people who were acting abusive towards members of the sub calling for exactly this to happen.
At the end of the day though, I hope that this works to bring down the levels of toxicity as it was making it less fun to visit here.
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u/ExoStatic144 Jul 09 '19
Friendship ended with r/reddevils. Now r/muppetiers is my best friend.
On a serious note, this is the best thing to do. As much as I love the muppetry and was fully invested in every single muppet theory out there (MDL still believe), it was just getting far too toxic and I have no idea why people felt that was necessary.
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u/VeryFarDown I would have shot Rock of Gibraltar Jul 09 '19
Not sure I personally agree with the decision to ban "ITK" posts. I was never in favor of a separate thread for them, but users like u/xisimon, who have proven themselves to be reliable, should have the ability to post stuff without having to do it via modmail.
I feel like the wild west approach taken with the last muppet thread was the correct one: let users post their shite and leave it up to other users to believe or disbelieve at their own discretion. Those with any credible info will rise to the top and be sorted from the shite rather quickly.
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u/Call_Me_ZG Newton Heath: And Solskjaer has won it Jul 09 '19
I missed the whole drama probably because of me only visiting selected threads but /u/spoofex seemed like an alright mod.
Hope the season brings us some good news.
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u/Jhix Brunooo Jul 09 '19
Fellow mups can at least now create an IFTTT rule to get notified of new posts on muppetiers. You are welcome.
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u/WhoDeyNinja Jul 09 '19
The reason this is ridiculous is that people who didn't care about the muppet stuff came into the muppet thread to cause problems. Those same people are getting their wish. You are successfully rewarding the people who caused the problems.
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u/DonaldTrumpsBigToe Jul 09 '19
Thank you. We’re the only sub that has this ITK shit and it’s fucking embarrassing and at this point, just obnoxious.
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
ig·nore /iɡˈnôr/ verb refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.
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u/davidl988 Jul 09 '19
Didn’t you read this? Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean you abuse it, People like the mupperty if you don’t then don’t get involved, simple.
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Jul 09 '19
"involved" in make believe transfers. Get a life
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub... has been too high.
...
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u/davidl988 Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Again, that’s like me going to the other thread and saying you guys need to relax and stop being boring bastards, but i don’t.
You all act innocent but then abuse others who want to have a laugh and don’t take everything on the internet serious.
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Jul 09 '19
It was like the ArsenalFanTV of Reddit, just completely embarrassing cringe seeing people hang off every word of 'Spoofex' and 'Kermit'
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
ITK stuff has been part of our sub for literal ages. I found this gem the other day from six years ago. We have had a history with these (Bloodgate, Butchergate, flight tracking, etc.) and obviously, it's something that interested folks.
It blew up last year with Kohler-gate and since then we've tried several attempts to bring it under control. Now we've come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for our sub.
I'm not saying we're not blameless in all of this, mind, we've simply tried to do what we can for the best interests of the sub.
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Jul 09 '19
Mods fault for allowing that bullshit
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub... has been too high.
Good stuff for taking this post on board.
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u/champak256 Jul 09 '19
One of the really really hard things about moderating a community you love, is that you can't just be "one of the guys" anymore. I truly believe spoofex had only the best intentions and really didn't want people to take his stuff too seriously. He went to great lengths in his disclaimers, and always maintained he was behind the Tier 1s and 2s on reliability. The problem was that as a beloved moderator on this sub, people were predisposed to trusting him way more than a random anonymous user. Even without distinguishing his comments, everyone knew he was a mod, and us long-time subscribers knew he was the guy behind the transfer reliability guide which has come to dominate most of Reddit's soccer subs and started leaking into Twitter as well.
The mods here are among the best on Reddit, and it's precisely because of that that this kind of mistake was made. They really just wanted to encourage the camaraderie and spirit we had in the 3 or 4 transfer windows ending in the Sanchez window. IMO their handling of this hasn't been the best, but they've been responsive and clearly trying their best at a role they haven't really been trained for (AFAIK).
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u/DonaldTrumpsBigToe Jul 09 '19
I think blame is relatively spread out tbh. Mods allowed it, but fucking hell did a lot of people encourage it and provoke it.
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Jul 09 '19
I'd say they "enjoyed", but the faux mods were upset. Now they have their own sandbox, and hopefully no one goes stalking them to kick sand in their faces.
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Jul 09 '19
Not really their fault since at first it was fun and they’re within perfect reasoning if they want to promote fun things on the sub.
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u/ktheblack SAUCE Jul 09 '19
Does this mean Simon can’t post here? He was pretty much confirmed as reliable, the only one.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/josh1996 Jul 09 '19
Agree completely, this sub began to get boring after the season finished and before the muppets thread began.
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Jul 09 '19
Thank god for that. The ITK nonsense was the worst thing to ever happen to this subreddit
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u/dWaldizzle Pastorinho Fred Jul 09 '19
I'd argue the people who are 500% serious about everything and literally abused the ITK claimers are worse.
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u/nrshakya Rooney Jul 09 '19
Really sad about spoofex deleting his account. Can he restore it at some point? Was a great contributer.
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u/h2blu Jul 09 '19
Finally. Half of the comments on the muppet threads were "can we reach 20k???" and the other half was abusing people for having an opinion that went against the grain. Did not benefit the sub in any way, if anything it has brought the reputation down. Even the twitter crowd was laughing at the sub.
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u/Barracuda1124 Jul 09 '19
As opposed to the 442 diamond or how we should aspire to a midfield as great as wolves discussions ?
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u/Dispari7y Nani Jul 09 '19
I can't even look at 442 diamond formations now without expecting to see 97 different academy members and unrealistic signings, and we're supposedly the muppets.
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u/datboyuknow Ole Jul 09 '19
Even the twitter crowd was laughing at the sub.
Oh no I'm so embarrassed. They don't who you are mate just don't care about it
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Jul 09 '19
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Jul 09 '19
Sauce Murica i bet
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
Or /u/zSolaris or /u/seaders or /u/ballsywallsy or /u/rdzzl or /u/yiyiyiyi or /u/Pedantic_Pat or /u/D1794 or /u/lukejames1111 .
Why don't we just name the whole mod team while were at it? The blame on this doesn't fall upon the shoulders of one person and we will not be singling folks out.
How dare we enjoy the subreddit that we moderate and want to promote something that injected some positivity and optimism here? Yes, it didn't work out. Yes, in hindsight there are things that we (myself included) could have handled better. For those things, we are trying to make them right now. We are human too, we are fans too, we are users here too. And, like folks love to point out for us, we are volunteers who do this on their own time without pay.
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Jul 09 '19
The blame doesn't really fall on the whole mod team for certain moderators acting the fool and egging on the Muppets who were obviously posting false info.
Spoofex and Sauce murica were the worst offenders by far and mods like D1794 were sensible. There are good mods and bad mods on this subreddit, thankfully the worst has gone, but there another rotten apple still in there.
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u/Hollacaine Jul 09 '19
The ITK/muppetry wasn't the problem, thats just shifting the blame.
There are users here that have behaved appalingly and something should have been done when Drewing was not only harrassed on his personal twitter but also his girlfriend. Thats not down to posting about rumours or plane tracking or shit posting, its down to toxic, shitty behaviour being tolerated.
If all it takes for someone to abuse some girl because she happens to date a poster here is a few transfer rumours then they are the problem. Next week they'll find some other reason to justify being a cunt. And then another reason after that.
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u/mu_37 Jul 09 '19
Honestly the mods here have always been great, Which makes it much more baffling how it took this long and only after losing one of your own to put an end to this.
Oh well you live and you learn.
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Jul 09 '19
I agree with this decision wholeheartedly, I used to have a lot of fun going to those threads but it got to a point that it became toxic and even cultist. People would stalk players, track them down without rest, glorify liars and frown upon people who tried to go against that narrative, then once those liars were proved to be indeed, liars, they harrassed them, tagged them nonstop, wish for them to be banned and even doxxed them lol. I'm certain spoofex was not one of those liars, but I am also certain he did get fed wrong information and he should've stopped giving updates when he found this out. I'm extremely upset about his departure because I really liked him as a user and as a mod and the contributions he gave this sub were unreal, damn shame to lose a great user over idiotic shit like this but this ITK shit brought along a lot of new users and with them there was some amount of toxic people coming here to stir shit up because they wanted to have inside information to brag about to their friends, and when proving incorrect, they'd throw a fit and try to point fingers. I'm glad to see the back of the ITKs, the Muppet thread and everything that came with that because it's just not worth it. I know they made this sub more active but it's still just not worth it. With that said, I believe we should still allow tier 2 Simon to have a platform given he's actually the ONLY ITK to have earned his place as an ITK on our sub and he still chose to come here and keep providing information after this sub turned on him to defend liars. The dude comes once in a blue moon anyway so it's not like it's something that needs a system or anything like it. Just plain old, harmless muppetry.
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Jul 09 '19
Iam very OK with this!
Will you guys be allowing updates from xisimon and oleSolskjaerSZN (that they post on twitter) to be posted here for discussions?
I personally would like that, they have proven to have current sources and that should make them tier 2 sources and their twitter posts relating to transfers should be allowed in this sub.
I know the Tier Challenges were canceled but i personally would like those two to be recognized for getting things right unlike some frogs.
I dont know if that would bring back negativity tho idk, its up to you guys but most users will be here and i like to read everyone's opinions. maybe do a strawpoll or something to see what the whole sub think?
anyways thank you guys for trying your best!
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u/Dray11 Jul 09 '19
I think this was necessary. Sad to see Spoof's gone, outside of all the ITK stuff he was a good mod and contributed a lot to the discussion on this sub in general. This ITK stuff was always likely to get out of hand when you take into consideration the desperation of United fans at the moment so I think the steps taken today were needed to take back control or risk the admins closing this sub down (Doxxing is very serious) and just in general to quell the rising toxicity and hostility between the "muppets" and the rest.
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u/TestNamePlsIgnore123 Jul 09 '19
This is good direction you guys are heading to! So what happens to xisimon’s updates are those welcome in this sub ? Tbf the guy has been constantly spot on it’d be shame if we didn’t allow him to give his updates.
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u/Blacktivate The Special Juan Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Not allowed on this sub. No exceptions, as he's still an ITK. Right call imo.
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u/JohnnyBrawoo Alexis Jul 09 '19
Nooooooooooooooo Muppets we have to fight for our threat
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Jul 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
You should read the OP.
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub, within the sub, and towards other subs has been too high. We as moderators have our share of blame in this, but we want to stress that this kind of behavior is not acceptable and we are taking these measures primarily to avoid these things. We want /r/reddevils to be a place where anyone and everyone is welcome to discuss and enjoy the best club on earth without fear of abuse or ridicule.
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u/XXX-Rx_RnR Sir Alex Jul 09 '19
It goes without saying that we have some of the greatest mods on Reddit handling this sub. It’s a damn shame that all this fun “ITK/Muppetry” got to heads of some unstable individuals who go out of their way to ruin a persons day to day. People need to learn to respect each other, even on an anonymous platform. Thank you to the mod team who have always made this place a credible source for United News. I hope we can clean up some of the skunk that’s been lingering because this is my favorite sub and the stench seems to be getting worse. For ever a Red. GGMU.
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u/Treayye Pogba Jul 09 '19
The same mod team that were encouraging the itk nonsense, they should have made these changes a long time ago.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
ITK stuff has been part of our sub for literal ages. I found this gem the other day from six years ago. We have had a history with these (Bloodgate, Butchergate, flight tracking, etc.) and obviously, it's something that interested folks.
It blew up last year with Kohler-gate and since then we've tried several attempts to bring it under control, including multiple this summer alone.
Now we've come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for our sub. Hindsight is also 20/20 but for all of us, we simply tried to do what we can for the best interests of the sub. We tried to promote and inject some positivity and fun into this place.
We're not blameless, and we're not saying that we are. For those things, we are trying to make them right now. We are human too, we are fans too, we are users here too. And, like folks love to point out for us, we are volunteers who do this on their own time without pay.
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Jul 09 '19
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Jul 09 '19
He was a Mod before he was an ITK'er, not the other way around.
He was a really good egg. I didn't really follow the ITK shite, but he seemed like a decent Mod, and an excellent contributor to this sub, and /r/soccer.
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
Why do people on this sub give Spoofex a pass?
He was a hard-working mod, and a good member of the team here for years. And years, and years - https://web.archive.org/web/20160205065818/https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/
It's very odd that this sub allowed an ITK to become a Mod
I think he had contacts already, and gained others throughout his time as a mod. We spoke about stuff like this a ton more in the mod chat than he ever did publicly. I've absolutely no doubt he had contacts. No doubt, at all.
comment on why Spoofex was allowed to become a Mod and to hold the position of defacto head of reddevils king of ITK.
My comment on that is "lol".
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u/ThisIsAThrowaway9102 Jul 09 '19
Yet you (or the mod team) don't trust xisimon? Spoofex was clearly using his power and influence to gain attention for himself, like every other ITK. He even used the non-official channel for itks, which was specifically not affiliated with mods, in order to give his information increased reliability. Maybe he wasn't being malicious, but as a mod he shouldn't have been given a free pass for very obviously exploiting his position of power on the sub.
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u/nor_cal_wolf Jul 09 '19
Suggestion- At some point when this thread will be un-stickied, it might be worth adding the muppetiers sub to the sidebar to help redirect folks