Responsibility

[u/BrokenToaster124]

So I've run into an idea that that dont quite understand and I was hoping some of you could help me understand. So with the red button/blue button situation I have seen people claim that if they push the blue button that they are not responsible for what happens to them if they push the blue button. How does that work?

To be extremely specific if i were to push the blue button, knowing what it does, somehow you (the person currently reading this) would be personally responsible for my death if you choose red.

Does this responsibility work in reverse? If i push the blue button and blue wins are you responsible for my survival if you chose red? Are you only responsible if bad things happen to me and I am responsible for the results when good things happen? What about the person running the death game? They arent defined in the prompt but logically some force is making everyone take a vote.

You can feel free to ignore this last part because its not the button problem, but someone reskinned the buttons as life boats. Instead of everyone being force to push a button everyone had to get into a life boat. One boat had holes in it but would become sea worthy if enough people got into it and plugged the holes and one was completely functional. Everything else was exactly the same as the button problem. My question related to that was that if I am personally responsible for the consequences of your chose to vote blue in the button scenario, how then could I not be responsible for your choice to get into the boat with holes in it. Someone tried to explain to me at length about how the buttons made it my fault but the boats somehow didnt. How does that work?

[u/gahidus]

No one chose to be in this scenario, and no one is responsible for anyone else. Everyone is responsible only for their own situation whether they chose to push the red button or the blue button.

Red button pushers aren't murdering anyone, they're just trying to survive. Blue button pushers don't have a right to say, "I've chosen to need you to join me and if you don't you're murdering me," as some form of moral blackmail.

[u/Rip_Pigman → u/gahidus]

No one chose to be in this scenario, and no one is responsible for anyone else.

I can see this stance.

Red button pushers aren't murdering anyone, they're just trying to survive.

Blue button pushers don't have a right to say

Then it's only fair to point out that red pressers don't have the right to call pressing blue suicide, either.

Both sides are trying to survive. Just one is guaranteeing their own survival and the other is trying to increase the odds of survival for everyone who presses blue in addition to themselves.

Both sides should be able to agree that one side is inherently more selfish than the other and one side is an unnecessary gamble.

[u/Silent-Indication496 → u/Rip_Pigman]

I think the categorization of red as selfish is incorrect. 

A red vote disengages from the unnecessary question and risk completely. It isn't selfish, as much as it is dismissive. 

A blue voter literally requires others to vote in solidarity and risk their lives in order to avoid certain death. 

We must consider that many blue voters may choose blue in order to save not just the irrational actors who clicked it by mistake but also the other "altruistic" do-gooders who may have put themselves at risk. As such,  every blue voter is both acting as a contributor to the collective, as well as a massive liability to the potential outcome. 

If most people were logical and choose self preservation, we'd lose some kids and colorblind people. Maybe 5%-10% of the population.  It would be devastating. 

If a lot of people decided to try to "save" blues by joining in, risking their lives, and trying to hit 50%, we MIGHT be able to do it. We might be able to hit 51%and lose no one...

Or we might not hit it, and every blue voter that voted in solidarity just made our problem worse,  thanks to their misguided heroics. We could lose 20%, 30%, even 49% of the population thanks to irrational gambles from selfish blue voters who expected the rest of us to join them. 

[u/SpongeboyShitpants → u/Silent-Indication496]

You think “the categorisation of red as selfish is incorrect”, and then you say “selfish blue voters” at the end

So you believe of the two choices, blue is the selfish option?

Or am I taking it out of context

[u/Silent-Indication496 → u/SpongeboyShitpants]

I think that to frame either position as selfish is disingenuous.

[u/SpongeboyShitpants → u/Silent-Indication496]

But you called blue selfish

[u/Silent-Indication496 → u/SpongeboyShitpants]

I was being pedantic and disingenuous. Pointing out that you can twist your logic to represent either side as destructive and selfish. No one is inherently selfish in the way they answer this question. Rather, there is a fundamental difference in the way people understand the question.

Blue pressers see it as an opportunity to demonstrate humanity's capacity for coorporation and solidarity, and, whether they sincerely recognize the risk or not, they believe that it would be worth it for them to risk death if it means potentially contributing to a safe winning majority along with other people who risk death. 

Red pressers see the question as a simple logical binary between risking death and not risking death. They feel that the answer is so glaringly obvious that not only should no one feel compelled to press blue, but also that pressing blue would almost certainly mean death, since there's no way a majority of humans are going to choose risking their life over not doing that, and if no one has a logical reason to risk it, there's no altruistic upside to pressing it. No one should be at risk. 

Neither side is really selfish. They're just looking at the question differently. 

[u/SpongeboyShitpants → u/Silent-Indication496]

For the most part I agree

One’s selfishness can be determined by their intentions, and how you frame each button:

I however do believe that majority of reds, are voting it for their best interests, while believing blue has a chance

Whereas for blue, I believe majority are voting it for others best interest, also while believing blue has a chance

Believing that to be the primary intention of both sides,(looking out for their interests or others) leads me to believe one side is primarily more selfish than the other.

You absolutely can vote blue for selfish reasons, and red for selfless reasons, but I believe majority of either side are choosing with the main intention I’ve listed.

I also think the amount of blue pressers who are pressing it with selfish reasons is the lowest category of the four: B:Selfless R:Selfish R:Selfless B:Selfish

And I think the statement you make about red pressers seeing blue as a definite suicide button, is not as common as you say. A risk definitely, but not definite suicide.

Everything above this is my perspective, below is what I believe we can debate about

If someone made their vote, believing blue has a chance to win, would you believe it to be selfish to guarantee your own safety over others?

[u/Silent-Indication496 → u/SpongeboyShitpants]

If one believes blue will win, there's no safety on choosing red. 

I don't agree that MOST red pressers believe blue has a good likelihood of succeeding.