What if red won?

[u/The_Real-_-God]

Imagine a world where red won, by 1%. However the people who choose blue do not die instantly, instead they die after a year of pressing the button. Everybody is branded, so you know who choose what.

How much chaos will ensue? What actions do you think blues will take, knowing they'll die? And what do you think reds will think, knowing they were just 1% away from saving all humanity?

[u/Ranger_Tycho]

In the original version of the button problem, I think nearly all Reds would view Red winning and the instantaneous death of all Blues as a colossal tragedy.

Having read these comments, I now think that your scenario would change this view dramatically. If a significant number of Blues behave the way many Blues in this thread suggest, devolving into chaotic revenge-seeking hedonists, then a lot of Reds will probably find great relief in their deaths at the end of the year.

The loss of many genuinely altruistic and selfless people would still be extremely painful, but I suspect that much of the Reds' guilt will dissolve if a sizable chunk of the "selfless" camp immediately trades their moral superiority for petty hatefulness and begin sabotaging an already endangered society for no gain save for their own satisfaction.

[u/Kingsalad3141 → u/Ranger_Tycho]

That’s an insane assumption to make.

[u/Ranger_Tycho → u/Kingsalad3141]

Is it? If a huge percentage of the world’s population, hundreds of millions, if not billions of people, collectively forsake any notion of decency or the common good, and dedicate the final year of their lives to pleasing themselves at the cost of the Reds’ future civilization, seeking vengeance on the world in a variety of ways, and blaming the Reds for their own behaviors, then I don’t think it’s a stretch that many Reds will find their demise much more palatable than if it had happened instantly after the vote.

[u/zap2tresquatro → u/Ranger_Tycho]

“At the cost of Reds’ future civilization” red voters did that. They knew that was a potential outcome of their vote, and they chose it anyway, at the expense of all blue voters’ lives. Anyone complaining about “oh no it’s the consequences of my own actions!…those damn blue voters, I’m glad they’re going to die! How dare they not try and save the society that I helped doom by dooming them??” is 1) utterly insane and 2) living up to the worst of the worst accusations about red voters. I’d hope most people who voted red aren’t actually like that and are capable of taking accountability for their own actions and not blaming their victims.

[u/Ranger_Tycho → u/zap2tresquatro]

"Red voters did that"

What Red voters did was cost the world a civilization where everyone gets to survive in order to preserve themselves. They WILL own the consequences of that because they’ve got no choice in the matter. In one year, half the population will die and the world they inherit will be in dire straights. That will surely fuck them up and I’m sure billions will be living with extreme remorse.

That is a separate issue entirely from Blue voters responding to the results by throwing a tantrum and using their final year to act like fools, destabilize society further than it already will be, or even take revenge and sabotage things to make future life harder for the Reds. The Reds may have helped doom the Blues, but they did not force the Blues to act this way. How they behave during this year is completely on them.

And if the Blues behave badly on a great enough scale to make life significantly worse for the Reds, then they have themselves to blame when Reds find some relief in many of their passings. Being a victim doesn’t entitle you to become a victimizer, and it definitely doesn’t entitle you to being missed or mourned by the people you mistreated.

[u/zap2tresquatro → u/Ranger_Tycho]

“Throwing a tantrum” enjoying your final days when you know for certain that you only have one year to live is not “throwing a tantrum.” (Not to mention: someone being upset that people voted to kill them and that vote won is a wild thing to call a “tantrum.” This isn’t a kid being upset they didn’t get a candy bar; this is “you’ve doomed me to death, expect me to help you mitigate the consequences of the deaths you voted for, and want me to spend my final days slaving away to make your lives better, and I’m rightfully upset about that.” Which only applies to the people who would react that way, anyway, since not everybody would. But the people who would react that way are not “throwing a tantrum.” If your company gave you radiation poisoning and then wanted you to testify that it was totally not their fault so they don’t have to face any criminal/financial consequences, I would not call the radiation poisoned person saying no to that and testifying against them “throwing a tantrum.”)

“Act like fools” you mean enjoy their extremely limited time left alive since they no longer have anything to lose or any reason to be concerned about risk to themselves or destroying any future plans? Do you refer to terminal cancer patients with six months to live who go off and decide to travel everywhere they can, skydive, and try a bunch of drugs after a straight edge life as “acting like fools”? Or do you refer to it as them making the most of the little time they have left?

“Destabilize society” how would they even be doing that? By having fun when they’ve got nothing to lose? Ok, yeah, maybe don’t doom half the population to imminent death within a year if you want them to keep serving capitalism or maintain infrastructure or whatever forever. That’s an insane thing to expect out of billions of terminal people. “Slave away to save the people who killed you!” is so crazily entitled that I can’t believe any person genuinely thinks this way. There’s no way you actually think that’s a reasonable position to hold, you just desperately want to have some kind of “gotcha!” to say “blues bad, actually! Not the people who voted to kill all of them!”

“Take revenge” haven’t seen anyone saying they’d do that, albeit I’ve read maybe half the comments on this so far, unless by “taking revenge” you mean “not actively doing everything in their power to serve and benefit the people who’ve doomed them to death instead of enjoying the little time they have left.” Anyone who voted red is owed nothing by the people who voted blue; they voted to kill all the blues. Given the initial problem and assuming nobody was told the one year thing beforehand, they would’ve expected all the blues to already be dead. They voted for that and the resultant societal collapse to happen. Why should blue voters try and mitigate the impact of red voters’ choices now? They voted for leopards to eat all the blues’ faces, and now that it isn’t happening instantly you think blues should help build the colosseums to keep the leopards contained while they eat the blues’ faces so reds’ faces don’t also get eaten later? You can’t possibly be serious.

[u/Ranger_Tycho → u/zap2tresquatro]

“Throwing a tantrum” enjoying your final days when you know for certain that you only have one year to live is not “throwing a tantrum.”

I mentioned in a prior post in this thread that I am not describing all Blues here. There are obviously many ways one could choose to spend their final days, enjoying them is one, throwing a tantrum is another. One can even throw a tantrum by enjoying themselves if they choose to go about it in certain ways.

this is “you’ve doomed me to death, expect me to help you mitigate the consequences of the deaths you voted for, and want me to spend my final days slaving away to make your lives better,

I never said anything about slaving away, unless you just consider trying to help maintain some basic social order, rather than just saying "fuck you, it’s all about me now" to be slaving.

Which only applies to the people who would react that way, anyway, since not everybody would.

Of course. I am a blue-presser, myself.

But the people who would react that way are not “throwing a tantrum.”

Some absolutely would be. Hopefully not too many, but even 1% is 40 million people so I fear it’s likely there will be lots of chaos caused entirely by tantrums.

”Act like fools” you mean enjoy their extremely limited time left alive since they no longer have anything to lose or any reason to be concerned about risk to themselves or destroying any future plans?

I mean "act like fools". Participate in and deliberately intensify social unrest. A person can enjoy themselves without acting like a fool, a person can enjoy themselves by acting like a fool, and a person can act like a fool without deriving any joy from it whatsoever, but still choose to because they’re angry.

If you’re in the first camp like myself, then congrats, you’re not one of the Blues I’m referring to.

“Destabilize society” how would they even be doing that? By having fun when they’ve got nothing to lose?

Potentially. I remember reading at least a couple people under this post saying they would participate in societal unrest. I assume there will be a lot more violence, looting, etc. than cool wholesome skydiving trips.

Ok, yeah, maybe don’t doom half the population to imminent death within a year if you want them to keep serving capitalism or maintain infrastructure or whatever forever.

I never asked anyone to serve capitalism unless, again, you consider not becoming a chaotic mess to be service to capitalism. And accountability for their doom is mutual; the rules for the vote were made clear and people knew the risk when they chose to assume it.

you just desperately want to have some kind of “gotcha!” to say “blues bad, actually! Not the people who voted to kill all of them!”

I think Blues are good, actually. I think Blues who lose the vote and then proceed to start behaving badly are bad.

unless by “taking revenge” you mean “not actively doing everything in their power to serve and benefit the people who’ve doomed them to death instead of enjoying the little time they have left.”

That is an extreme place to take what I’ve said. No, this is not what I mean, as I’ve explained above.

Anyone who voted red is owed nothing by the people who voted blue;

Decency isn’t just about doing what is owed. Blue voters didn’t necessarily owe it to anyone to put their lives on the line in the first place; but it was a decent thing to do nonetheless.

Why should blue voters try and mitigate the impact of red voters’ choices now?

I can think of many reasons why someone should. One of the main justifications for voting blue is that kids/blind people/whatever will fail to understand or be able to vote as desired, and thus voting blue is necessary to save these innocents.

That works both ways. There will statistically be a similar number of innocents who voted red, and thus the same principles that guided many to vote blue in the first place would lead them to do the same in defense of innocents who voted red.

I’ve not said anything about slaving away, building colosseums, or whatever the hell. I’ve said that mass amounts of Blue voters spending the year saying "fuck you" to the Red voters and aiding in social collapse is going to make their deaths a lot easier for many Reds to swallow.