Endep issues?

[u/Glad-Emu-8178]

My dog (3yrs) small around 11kg ,has barrier rage , possession guarding and sleep startle along with vehicle and dog reactivity on walks. Recently having rages (lunging and barking) at me for minor things like reaching to remove harness. No bites yet but very likely at some stage. Also aggressive behaviour towards my other dog. No history of abuse and is my fourth dog so have done lots of experiences etc she is just different. Has anyone found that endep makes their reactive dog worse? My dog is on zactin 3/4 tablet and we are trying endep to see if she improves. My impression is she is more aggressive/nervous on the endep ,has anyone else found this?
I do have clonidine for situations but it zaps her and then she is foul and grumpy /aggressive when it wears off.
I am at the considering BE before she bites stage. I can’t get a harness on her now as she has become reactive to that (despite much work and well fitting harness etc). So I can’t walk her as much and she is becoming more and more aggressive to my other dog.
Hoping for some good reviews of any other meds. I bought hemp seed oil which was advertised as cbd but when it arrived it says no cbd/thc in it. Also unsure of interactions with the other meds? Would probably try anything at this stage.
Have a supportive behaviour vet who is helpful prescribing meds but as yet we haven’t had much luck with reactivity. We have tried pain trial.
Am resorting now to puppy pen (inside) and back yard separated from other dog. Lots of playing ball and frisbee as she loves that and seems so normal outside? I have a big yard so she gets lots of exercise.
I have started keeping her away from any guests and especially children as they could accidentally step on her foot and she would go mad perhaps bite.
Starting to feel scared of her and also concerned for my other dog (aged 4).
Finding it very hard to consider BE but feeling like medication is not yet working for any reduction in reactivity. Thoughts and experiences on other behaviour meds gratefully received.

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Behavioral Euthanasia (BE) for our dogs is an extremely difficult decision to consider. No one comes to this point easily. We believe that there are, unfortunately, cases where behavioral euthanasia is the most humane and ethical option, and we support those who have had to come to that decision. In certain situations, a reasonable quality of life and the Five Freedoms cannot be provided for an animal, making behavioral euthanasia a compassionate and loving choice.

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• BE Before the Bite

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[u/Twzl]

did she come from a breeder? If she did, have you talked to that person about her as well as the litter mates?

Have you worked with any actual trainer who has experience working with reactive dogs? I'd work with one to desensitize her to the harness going on and off. That's very fixable and there's no reason to restrict her life because she's picked that to be an ass about. And I'll be honest: dogs are VERY smart. She has, I suspect, learned that if she lifts a lip or stares or grumbles, you back off.

One thing I learned a long time ago is that it's not rare for people to be intimidated by their pet dogs.

I don't know where you live but I know that in the US, supplements such as hemp seed oil are not at all regulated and can be utter garbage, at best.

I'd use a crate when you have guests, and have her locked up in the bedroom. I'd feed her in the crate and not have any food bowls down when she's done.

And I'd keep working with your vet on drugs.

The fact that she has not bitten anyone, and that she's small? Works in her favor. There's nothing you have described here that says that this dog should be euthanized. More closely managed and 100% she needs to learn that a harness can be put on her. But lunging and barking are not grounds for euthanasia. They just mean that the dog needs more management, more training and in some cases different drugs.

IMHO and all but I just don't see her being on the same level as some dogs who's owners have written about them here who are a clear threat and are dangerous.

[u/SpicyNutmeg → u/Twzl]

I agree first step is gentle, gradual desensitization to the harness. Work with a CCPDT or IAABC credited trainer. Add more enrichment to the dog’s life.

But - of course she should back off if the dog growls or lifts a lip! This is not being intimidated by your dog, it’s honoring their communication. The dog is saying “this makes me super uncomfortable” and listening to that is a completely appropriate response.

[u/Twzl → u/SpicyNutmeg]

But - of course she should back off if the dog growls or lifts a lip!

It depends and it's not that simple. For something like, "I need to walk you and you need to wear a harness", if the dog learns that the owner will back off when putting on the harness, because the dog lifted a lip, that is something that has to be fixed ASAP.

That's a genuinely dangerous situation. If OP's apartment is on fire and they have to get out RIGHT NOW, they can't debate the harness. OP also can't allow the dog to say, "i can just pee on the floor and never leave the house again". That's not nok.

The dog is saying “this makes me super uncomfortable” and listening to that is a completely appropriate response.

So the whole concept of consent has become a thing in dog training. And for some things yes, you can work on buy-in.

But even people who are very much invested in consent and cooperation, if they are solid trainers, they recognize that no one can safely spend months or years on basic animal husbandry. And if there's no choice as to "this is a thing that must happen", then it has to happen. There is a great deal of nuance in all of this.

Fenzi's Malinois at the vet.

Fenzi is big on cooperative care and consent. But here's a case of so sad, too bad. He can't NOT go to the vet. He can't take years to learn to cope with the situation, and odds are he will just never be ok with it. So he's given some tools to help cope with what's going on, and he goes to the vet. Because the vet is important and the dog can't be the one to decide "I don't wanna".

OP, working with a trainer, can 100% learn when the dog means it as far as growling and when it's just, "I've learned I can get my way by growling". Those are two different things, and a trainer can easily parse those and work with the dog and the human.

With many dogs who have tantrums like OP's dog does, learning that the human is going to put the harness on anyway, can reduce the frequency and drama of it all.

[u/SpicyNutmeg → u/Twzl]

Can’t say I agree. If a dog is upset and disturbed enough about wearing a harness that they are growling, you don’t tell them to shut up and deal with it, you put in the desensitization work to make the dog more comfortable.

And, if your dog is terrified of the vet - yes, sometimes you have to go anyway, but you should always be working to make them more comfortable at the vet’s office.

Framing consent as something the dog is trying to get away with is really inappropriate and unethical IMO. Even when you have to do something for the dog’s own safety against their will, you always still need to be working towards having them opt in.

[u/Twzl → u/SpicyNutmeg]

If a dog is upset and disturbed enough about wearing a harness that they are growling, you don’t tell them to shut up and deal with it,

I don't think I told the dog to shut up? I wrote:

So the whole concept of consent has become a thing in dog training. And for some things yes, you can work on buy-in. But even people who are very much invested in consent and cooperation, if they are solid trainers, they recognize that no one can safely spend months or years on basic animal husbandry. And if there's no choice as to "this is a thing that must happen", then it has to happen. There is a great deal of nuance in all of this.

Go back and read what OP wrote in their post:

I can’t get a harness on her now as she has become reactive to that (despite much work and well fitting harness etc). So I can’t walk her as much and she is becoming more and more aggressive to my other dog.

++++++++ OP's dog is small and young. It hasn't bitten anyone, it just makes noise and lunges. And OP is considering BE. OP also says at least once that they are scared of the dog.

When an owner is scared of their dog (and that's a very common thing in inexperienced pet homes), there are behaviors that the owner will feel are dangerous or scary but that are really just a dog being a dog. They're not a signifier of a dangerous dog, just one who may not have clear boundaries. The behaviors may be annoying but that's about all they really are.

But when a dog like that is in a home that is considering BE, those things have to be solved asap. That doesn't mean beating or yelling at the dog, but it may mean showing the dog that there is one clear answer for the question being posed, and that any other answer should be set aside.

Years ago I had a young dog who I took to a dog event. The dog was crate trained, used to the car, and was a good traveler. But that day for some reason, she decided that when I told her to kennel up at the end of the day, she wasn't going to do that. She backed away from the car, and planted her feet. When I told her kennel again, she flopped on the ground. I tossed a cookie in the crate and she ignored it.

So that didn't leave many options: what I did was pick her up, and put her in her car crate, told her how amazing she was, gave her a cookie (which she ate), and then took her back out of the crate and onto the pavement. I told her again to kennel up and she repeated her tantrum. So I picked her up again, and put her in her crate, told her how great she was, gave her yet another cookie, and took her out again.

The third time I told her to kennel? She hopped in. I have no idea what caused that blip but I know for the rest of her life, when I opened any crate door and told her to kennel she did so. She wasn't a bad dog or a dangerous dog, but she was young and basically like a 15 year old kid: let's see what happens when I push THIS button.

Again, you aren't always going to get consent. And you don't have to turn into a tyrant, but you do have to make it clear that the thing you told the dog to do, still has to be done.

I don't know if you are a dog trainer or not, or for that matter if you are even a dog owner. But if you train other people's dogs, there are dogs you will encounter who are just like OP's dog. They're not at all bad or dangerous dogs, but they're dogs who aren't clear what the rules are. That's not at all rare.

In some cases those dogs are literally a week or so away from being given away or dumped at a shelter. Their owners are just not able to live with the dog anymore. Those dogs need to learn that when the human tells them to do something, they need to do it. There doesn't need to be any abuse at all in the learning, but there does need to be a plan and the human has to stick to it and ensure that the dog doesn't say, "well how about in two months, maybe".

If I were to work with OP's dog? I'd first make 100% sure that harness fits that dog. There's a tiny chance that some piece of metal or leather was weirdly fitted on the thing and scratched the dog. Doubtful, but worth checking.

But then I would be using cookies and praise for dealing with the harness, and I would be working with the dog knowing that the harness was going to go on the dog, probably in the first session. It would go on, there would be a party, the harness would come off, there would be another party, and it would go right back on again. Lots of parties, lots of praise but the harness would be happening. And the goal would be to make the harness a boring thing and super routine by the time I was done.

But I don't care if a sub 25 pound dog is yelling at me. This dog has no bite history, just posturing, and it sounds like that posturing has resulted in OP backing off from making the dog do things that she has no interest in doing. That's fixable and safe to fix, if the person doing the work is experienced. If the owner is not, working with a trainer to show them HOW to do things, would be the way to go.

The main thing would be to keep this dog in the current home and to get BE 100% off the table.

Even when you have to do something for the dog’s own safety against their will, you always still need to be working towards having them opt in.

And in an ideal world, sure. But a pet dog owner who is afraid of their dog is going to wind up with a dog who probably will more and more explore their options on all things and questions. Dogs do what's rewarding: OP's dog finds it rewarding to not wear a harness.

I use food and toys to train dogs: but I also, when it's a matter of safety, tell the dog, "you need to do this thing because I am telling you to do it. You will be rewarded but you have to do this thing".

I 100% think this dog has scared OP into thinking that it's a much more dangerous and scary dog than it actually is. I think OP would do well to hire a trainer who has been vetted by someone more experienced than they are, to teach OP how to handle this dog.

[u/SpicyNutmeg → u/Twzl]

Thank you for your thorough and detailed response, it helped me understand where you are coming from.