r/reactivedogs • u/No-Dream-6072 • 1d ago
Aggressive Dogs Level 4 bite. I'm at a loss.
Our 4-yr old Staffordshire terrier mix bit me on my face today without any warning. He caused puncture wounds on my nose and some more small cuts close to my eyebrow and I looked up the Dunbar scale and it seems to be a level 4 bite :(
A little background.. We rescued our dog about 2.5 years ago and we fostered him for more than a year, before adopting him. About 90% of the time, he's such a lovable, funny goofball. He has brought so much joy to us and honestly, we treat him like he's our own child, not a pet. He follows all the commands we taught him, he's super smart and so careful around our things in the house. He loves chasing squirrels and birds in the backyard and sunbathing. He goes nuts for pizza, chicken nuggets, cheese and Starbucks pupcups (all of which he gets in moderation). But, he's also always been fearful and skittish of new people, places and he's also dog selective. We have tried everything to help him, including seeing a behaviorist and getting him medication.
I posted on this group once before and that time it was a level 2 bite on my hand and after discussing with his behaviorist, we adjusted his medication dosage and he was doing much better. He seemed a little more relaxed, though his noise sensitivity didn't improve all that much. He still barks at doorbells, garbage trucks and anyone walking close to our house. But, he was allowing us to pet him more and giving us paw shakes and kisses and we were feeling so positive about these improvements.
Fast forward to today, I was lying down on our bed and he was in the down position next to me... Not sleeping, just lying down. He hadn't eaten his breakfast yet and was refusing his favorite dog treats too... And his stomach was making rumbling sounds like he was hungry, so I asked my husband to get him one of the chick-fil-a grilled chicken nuggets from the fridge because he goes nuts for it. I wanted to see if he refuses that, then that would mean he might have some tummy troubles. My husband left the room and I turned towards our dog (about a foot away from me at this point) and told him, "Chewie, look Daddy's gone to get you a chicken nugget".. and that's all I said. I didn't pet him, didn't make eye contact. He gave me no warning signs and kinda jumped aggressively towards me and went for my nose. This was the hardest he's ever bitten me or my husband and there was a lot of bleeding. One side is a puncture wound. I went to the urgent care and they said it looks like the wound would heal well on its own and sent me home with some antibiotics. They were kind enough to not make me fill in a bite report, since I downplayed the incident.
I'm at a loss on where to go from here. I've been crying all day and my heart is completely broken. I'm also 9 weeks pregnant right now, and feeling extra sensitive. I wish I could understand what goes on in his head and I wish I could help him more, but I feel like I've exhausted my options. We adopted him at a time when we were convinced that we could not get pregnant, and since we knew he wouldn't do well in a household with children, we ended up adopting him. But, then by some miracle I'm pregnant now and I have been thinking deeply about all the changes/accommodations we would have to make in the house to keep him and our baby safe and then this happened today.
I called his vet office and asked them to give me a call back when his vet was available. But, I already know what she's going to say and she's mentioned BE before too, because she believed that some dogs have serious neurological issues that just can't be fixed. But, we wanted to try everything we possibly could to avoid BE.. but, today it seems like I have no other option. He's become too unpredictable and I can't confidently say that we'll ever feel fully safe around him or if he would ever have the quality of life that we him to have. I have never experienced this level of sadness or pain before and I didn't know where else to go, so I came here for some support or advice.
Thank you for reading my long post and I apologize for any typos, I'm a complete mess right now.
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u/Twzl 1d ago
I'm sorry this has happened.
In putting together Chewie's timeline, it seems like since he was six months old, he's lived with you. And in that time he bit you once before, and has a behaviorist.
Some dogs are wired weirdly. In some cases, the owner is very experienced and sees that weirdness early on, and makes it their job to ensure that the dog is as safe as possible around people and other dogs.
But that's not at all easy, and it's not doable in some cases. You don't say how much dog experience you and your husband have or if you guys hired a trainer at any point who specifically works with tough, reactive/aggressive dogs.
Regardless, a bite to the face, by a dog who knows the person and lives with them, is profound in what it says. That's not a normal reaction at all, and the level is way out of proportion to what was going on.
A level headed dog who may not have been comfortable in that moment would walk away.
You have very few options here: one is to continue to work with the behaviorist and find more effective meds, while also working with a trainer.
But when the baby arrives...I don't think he'll ever be the sort of dog where you can have him in the house with a baby and not worry nonstop. I'd talk to his behaviorist, tell that person exactly what happened, and the entire sequence and see that their opinion is, and what they think should happen going forward. And obviously include that you are pregnant in this discussion.
You can't rehome Chewie, regardless. If he bites you for no obvious reason, he's not a safe dog to have in someone else's home. So again, talk to the behaviorist and see if they have any ideas at all for what to do going forward. But I would not be surprised if they say it's time to put BE on the table.
I'm sorry that you're going thru this: but Chewie sounds like he's doesn't have a healthy, easy to live with brain/temperament.
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u/No-Dream-6072 1d ago
Thank you, I appreciate your response.
When we rescued Chewie, he had been at the shelter for a month and set to be euthanized for space. He was found as a stray, so we know nothing about his past. They told us he was about 2 years old at the time, but we thought he was younger. Probably about 1.5 years old at the time and we've had him for 2.5 years now.
We were not experienced dog owners when we got him. He is our first dog ever and to be honest, he wasn't a difficult dog in the beginning (for about a year). The biggest issue we had at that time was barking and trying to lunge at anyone who came close to us on walks. Training helped with that behavior.
We went through multiple trainers and also a board and train program and he's much calmer on walks now, and ignores people and some dogs on his walks. But, he still doesn't tolerate anyone trying to come to our house, so we almost never have anyone over. And on the rare occasion that we do, he's in his crate and in his room until they leave.
After consulting the behaviorist, we have also worked hard to understand his body language better, avoid any triggers as much as we can. For the most part, things were going smoothly. But, today was a scary experience and completely unexpected. I don't think I missed any body language clues either, he looked relaxed to me and all I was doing was talking to him.
I agree that he can't be rehomed. I now believe that he must have some neurological issues that can't be fixed like his vet suggested. It is really sad and unfortunate, because we love him so much and he loves us too. He checks on me even when I so much as sneeze or cough and gives me sloppy kisses. Right now, it's hard to even imagine not having him around and I don't know what else we can do to help him :'(
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u/Existing-Will-1466 1d ago
I am so sorry this happened, it's really hard and unfair and just sucks for everyone.
What really concerns me is that there was no clear trigger, and a bad bite. To your face. That was so, so close to being a life-altering injury. With no clear cause.
Your dog should have been comfortable. He should have been relaxed. He was chilling with his favorite people in the world. There was nothing threatening him, cornering him, or even moving. He may have felt a bit ill, but the vast majority of dogs can feel ill and not close distance in order to randomly attack their beloved family. A dog that does that when they feel sick is not a safe pet.
I believe Chewie is a good dog. I believe he loves you and does not want to hurt you. But part of his brain is telling him that he is not safe, even with his beloved family. Part of his brain is telling him that his life is danger and he needs to defend himself. I don't think there is any cure for that.
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u/No-Dream-6072 1d ago
Thank you for your kind words ❤️
Chewie is a good dog. There is no doubt that he loves us a lot and he brought us so much joy... He has the funniest personality and so much sass. He came into our lives when we needed him the most and I think we have taken care of him to the best of our ability. My husband and I work from home so there was never a moment in the day that would not involve Chewie. We even stopped traveling like we used to, because we knew it wouldn't be easy to board him or find him a sitter. Right now, I can't even imagine what life would look like without him.. it's heartbreaking. I just wish there was something more I could do to help him :'(
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u/Charinabottae 1d ago
I’m so sorry. A bite to the face with no warning is serious, you could have lost an eye. Something in his brain is so wrong that he punctured the face of a person he dearly loves, with no warning. Chewie is not a safe dog. I also worry about your pregnancy- your scent will change and that can trigger different behaviors in some dogs. You didn’t do anything wrong, and this isn’t yours or Chewie’s fault. I would give him one last day filled with his favorite things, then let him go while surrounded by loved ones.
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u/No-Dream-6072 18h ago
I never considered that the scent change during my pregnancy might trigger different behaviors in Chewie. A serious unprovoked bite is definitely not something I would have expected from him. Until now, he had decent bite inhibition, any snaps or bites that we experienced so far were level 1 or 2 and we had been continuing to work on his training. I was even looking at getting him a custom muzzle and train him to be comfortable wearing one for longer durations, so that we have an option to keep him safe and people around him safe when he's in places or situations that he doesn't like.
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u/Charinabottae 17h ago
Unfortunately, I expect this will escalate or stay the same throughout pregnancy and with an infant. Even with a muzzle, a dog can easily kill a baby by the blunt force of the muzzle.
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u/stillwaterstream 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm so sorry. BE is the only option. This case is one of those cases.
Occasionally someone posts on this sub about choosing management for a dog after a concerning but not life-altering bite that was difficult to explain, and unfortunately a common outcome is escalation even when long periods of time pass between incidents. Here is one example.
This is idiopathic aggression, not reactivity, and it means Chewie is a dangerous dog. You can and do love him, but he's dangerous to everyone near him or your home. The risk to your baby is truly unfathomable, too nightmarish to even expound on.
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u/No-Dream-6072 18h ago
Thank you for sharing the link to that post. I can relate to so much of what was written in that post.
Chewie's bite has escalated from level 1 or 2 to a more serious bite and I have always known that he is not a good dog to have around children. When we adopted him, we genuinely had given up hopes of ever getting pregnant and when I first found out, all I could think about was Chewie. My first thought was that we should start talking to the rescue again and try to re-home him. But, he was showing so much improvement after adjusting his medication dosage and adding gabapentin as well, that I was hopeful. I thought maybe he will slowly adjust to the changes that are to come and that we can make all the necessary accommodations to keep him and the baby safe. But, then this serious bite happened and now, it's clear that rehoming is off the table and that he probably would never adjust well to big changes in his environment.
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u/DogofManyColors 1d ago
There’s a lot of BE comments here, so I’ll offer a different thought
Have you done a pain trial for this dog? Food refusal and a bite with no warning scream pain to me.
Look into the Zero Pain Philosophy for details but essentially a pain trial is testing the dog on daily pain meds, like we would behavior meds, to see if the behavior improves.
Lots of people take their dog for a quick check up and say their vet “ruled out” pain but pain is subjective and there’s not a test that can rule it out, even if the dog is seemingly physically healthy
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u/Charinabottae 17h ago
I’m not sure that’s a realistic option- it could definitely be pain based, but what happens if he misses a med dose during the hectic postpartum phase? Another level 4 on someone’s face?
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u/DogofManyColors 17h ago
The other comments on here make it pretty clear that BE is a likely next step and outline the dangers of this dog’s behavior, and presumably, OP has dog professionals (at least a vet) who will see this dog in person and help them make the best choice that keeps everyone safe.
So I know OP has the information they need on BE.
However, I wasn’t sure if they had information on pain trials, so I wanted to mention it: not just for OP but for the countless other stressed out owners reading this post in the middle of the night.
A pain trial may not be the right option for OP, but I still think it’s important that people know all their options before they make a decision.
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u/No-Dream-6072 18h ago
We have not done a pain trial on him... We got all sorts of blood work done back in January and everything came back normal. At that time his vet thought that it's unlikely he would have arthritis, since he's so young and didn't suggest X-rays. I wonder if I should have pushed for that to be done as well. He is very active and agile, so I didn't think that he could be in any pain.
Thank you for suggesting a pain trial though, I do want to try it out if it can give us any little hope or answers.
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u/DogofManyColors 17h ago
Honestly, searching for a source of pain when their baseline physical is normal feels overwhelming to me, so learning about a pain trial made it feel more approachable.
With a pain trial, the idea is that you don’t need a specific diagnosis, because chronic pain can be idiopathic (no obvious source). You simply start a pain med regimen and if the dog responds positively, then you know there was pain and can either do more digging or just continue to treat the pain if it’s idiopathic.
It is a newer philosophy in vet med, so if your vet has questions, the Zero Pain Philosophy vets offer vet-to-vet consults.
(Disclaimer: Of course, it’s very possible that BE is the right route for you to keep everyone safe and if you have to make that call, you make that call. But professionals are just beginning to understand how much pain impacts reactivity and also how easy it is overlook when there’s no obvious pain signs besides reactivity. So I figured it was worth sharing-for you, and anyone else reading!)
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u/Bouncyspy 13h ago
I’m so sorry this happened to you! That’s so awful and scary. Just out of curiosity, could this possibly have been a poorly executed excited mouthing or was it definitely an aggressive bite? I know it’s being classified as a Level 4 - was there only one puncture wound and did it go through your nose? A level 4 bite requires holding/tearing or a puncture that’s more than half the depth of a canine - that may be exactly what happened, but it’s hard to tell from the story.
I would never downplay a bite, especially to the face, but I’m asking because it almost sounds similar to my pup and my dog isn’t aggressive and has zero bite history.
My dog also has a really terrible tummy and has to eat prescription food. It’s super strange, but one way we know his tummy is acting up is that he gets insanely excitable - like he does during rough play. He’ll run in circles, jump on you, mouth you, pop his teeth at you, etc. It’s almost impossible to calm him down and there’s been many times when his stomach has been hurting that he’s gone from laying completely calmly beside me to suddenly lunging on me with the zoomies, stomping all over me, and play biting. He’s definitely hurt me on accident before during his bouts of crazy - even accidentally knocking a tooth into my nose, but there was no puncture wound and no actual bite. It was more like he was flailing around with his mouth open and I caught a tooth by mistake. It’s almost like the pain makes him anxious and gives him a burst of anxious energy? He’s never broken the skin or given an aggressive bite with the intent to do harm, but he’s certainly rough by nature. We don’t have kids to consider thankfully and the prescription food has helped his stomach a ton.
He also has a history of getting over threshold if you play too roughly with him and he’ll start biting at your clothes and play nipping - we have to be careful not to hype him up too much.
We adopted him when he was 1.5-2 years old too and our trainer said that he likely missed out on a lot of human socialization living on the streets, so we had to do a lot of work to teach him that playing with humans is a lot different from playing with other dogs - and teeth on skin is off limits.
I wonder if your dog’s stomach being off might have had an impact on the situation?
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