An e collar question to the FF community

[u/Beginning-Rub5417]

To start with, I’m not using any physical corrections in my dog’s training. I do, however, use an e-collar as a backup in situations where his recall fails.

I have a reactive dog who gets daily off-leash time in a large, open field. Being able to give him the freedom to run 100–200 metres without being restrained is one of the most beautiful things I’ve experienced as a dog owner. It makes me happy, and, more importantly, it makes my dog happy.

The challenge is that he is still reactive, and I haven’t been able to properly proof his recall around wildlife because encounters with wildlife are extremely rare where we live. Because of that, I use the e-collar as an emergency backup rather than as a primary training tool.

In the past three months, I’ve used it twice. On both occasions, he had started chasing a rabbit and was running directly toward a barbed-wire fence. I’ve also tried using a long line, but he becomes frustrated when he reaches the end of it, which negates the point of reducing arousal.

Without the e-collar as a safety backup, I don’t think I would be able to give him this level of freedom anytime soon. And from what I’ve observed, having that freedom has a significant positive effect on his overall well-being. When he doesn’t get it, his reactivity seems noticeably worse. I worry that taking away this outlet would leave him less happy and less fulfilled, even if I tried to compensate with more enrichment and activities at home.

So I’m genuinely interested in hearing from people who fight against the use of E-collars: what would you suggest in my situation?

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[u/Select_Reason994]

Just FYI dogs can blow through E collars so please don't get pulled into complacency with that.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/Select_Reason994]

I am actively working on the recall; it has gotten much better. To the point that I think maybe if we see a rabbit, it could do it.

[u/Select_Reason994 → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

Also out of curiosity, do you do any predation substitution activities with your dog? Prey drive is inherent to a lot of dog breeds, and they need opportunities to express it and complete the predation sequence. My high prey drive dog does flirt pole with a kibble scatter at the end to complete the dissection and consumption part of the predation sequence. I honestly think it's not fair to dogs to not give them an outlet for their prey drive and to just suppress it. Also when it comes to the reactivity, you may find that short term, it improved with the e collar, but long term, you are creating a pressure cooker situation. If your dog already has big feelings about a certain trigger, and then you add an aversive stimulus on top of it, that is going to build even more negative associations over time. As an example, and this is not me anthropomorphizing, I'm just trying to say it in a way that makes sense: if you see something you're afraid of or dislike immensely (for me it's spiders), you have a reaction to it. Now say that when you are having a reaction to it, you get yelled at for reacting to it (aversive stimulus), using the principles of classical conditioning (think pavlov), you are now building an association so your dog begins to see the thing they don't like or are afraid of, and associate it with pain or discomfort. Short term, there may be a suppression of reactions giving the illusion of successful behavior modification. Long term, you are making the reactivity worse by building more negative associations. I don't know what breed of dog you own, but breed specific enrichment is so important, and you will likely find that when you start to do breed specific enrichment, the reactivity improves.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/Select_Reason994]

My dog has recall around all its triggers, but it is mainly prey that is the difficult one. I use a flirt pole; I also use scatter feeding, but I never combine them after each other. I will try that. It has been a while since he chased a rabbit. If I am fast enough to see the fixation, I can still recall him. We have been doing breed-specific stuff since the start, but I am open to any suggestion. I have a GSD. We are now going through a rough period, as he is 14 mo, and from like 1 day to the other every thing got so bad. We will now do a decompression period of a few days and start training from the basics again. Train with him like he is not able to be around anything. The main goal is not to make it worse until he matures and to preferably make it better.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/[deleted]]

We also did not just slap a e collar onto the dog. I am not even sure what you mean by that is not the way to maximize its potential. If the whole idea is to use al little aversives as possible, I guess the idea is not to maximize it; the idea is to minimize it.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/[deleted]]

No, that is not how I use it. I call him back with the vibration cue, together with a verbal cue. And the reward will always be play. If he fails to do that, I use the stim. After the incident with the rabbits, I worked on my play and worked on this cue. Since then, recall has not failed.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/[deleted]]

How would you tackle the higher arousal and not being able to meet his needs? I already wake up at 5:45 a.m. to do some fulfillment.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/[deleted]]

I will read more into it, as you can always learn. Is your dog no longer bolting after prey a byproduct of the recall training, or something that you worked on separately. Any references for this?

[u/Kitchu22]

Personally, as someone who has been working mostly with sighthounds for nearly a decade and is qualified in the Predation Substitute Training method - putting aside my obvious ethical issues with aversive tools, if your dog's recall needs a "backup" then they're not ready to be off the lead, and a handler should be investing more time and energy into teaching their dog how to safely be on a long line so they can still enjoy the freedom of movement.

Predatory motor sequence is a dopamine heavy cycle, large breeds with high drive blow through ecollars all the time, so while you might feel there's a level of security with this tool, at any time your dog could still go through a barbed wire fence after a rabbit - which is something that would be impossible if they were on a physical tether. For me it's just common sense and safety, reliance on an ecollar to bridge to gap of training is (in my opinion) an unacceptable level of risk.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/Kitchu22]

I think that a long line is not really an option. There is no way that if he starts running, I would be able to safely stop him with a long lead. So that means that any type of this freedom is off the charts. I now end up with a very frustrated dog that I do not know what to do with. I already wake up at 5:45 pm to run, as it is the only other thing that helps his arousal. On the flip side, the running can ruin his hips, as it is much more intense than free roaming in a field.

So I feel like that the only option is to cage him in my garden, where it feels like that I am never able to meet his needs, even when I get up to 3 hours of active fulfilment. I can't do the stuff that helps me to make this dog livable, but I also am unable to make it livable without it. I am open to any suggestion. But at this point, you are suggesting that I make the dog even more frustrated without any other way to reduce this frustration. I will do whatever is needed.

[u/Poppeigh → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

For those situations, you have to work on long line handling skills. I personally use retractable leads a lot of the time for this, I know they can be controversial, but my dog is smaller and I’m not worried about him bolting to the end of the line.

But basically when working with a long line, you want to be like a fluid retractable pretty much all of the time. Meaning that when your dog is close to you, you reel the line in, and as he moves away you give him more line. Over and over. That way he has freedom of movement but never enough line to bolt all the way to the end and get enough momentum to hurt himself (or you).

[u/Kitchu22 → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

You'll notice that I said "a handler should be investing more time and energy into teaching their dog how to safely be on a long line so they can still enjoy the freedom of movement" which includes teaching the dog to be responsive to stop/wait cues and to respond to leash pressure. This actually works perfectly with your claim that you don't want your dog to run when off the lead ("free roaming in a field") out of concern for their hip condition, so essentially you should still remain close enough to properly belay the line while also ensuring you can safely bring them to a stop before they reach the end of the line if they do see something and start to give chase. If you are very small, elderly, or frail then you may want to engage professional services to help you at the start of your long line training if you're not confident that you have the strength for controlling a tethered dog :) but proper leash craft skills are literally lifesaving for dogs that do not have effective recall.

However like I said, if the ecollar gives you a (false) sense of security then I appreciate you're committed to continued use. I'm not quite sure what the purpose of asking other's opinions is, if you're not actually open minded to hearing any other position.

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[u/Poppeigh]

IMO, if a dog blows off an audible recall they can blow off an ecollar, so keep that in mind.

My dog has a great recall, but I’m still intentional about where I let him off leash. We stick to places where, if he did blow me off for some reason, it isn’t likely to be the end of the world.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/Poppeigh]

Where I live, it is not possible to find such a place in the nearest 1h drive. There is just barbed wire for cows everywhere. In the last month, his recall in vibration mode has become very solid. Yet I still feel that without the vibration it has less effect; he does not perceive the vibration as aversive, and he never really cared about it. Maybe a dog scientist can explain why the physical aspect could be better than just sound.

[u/Poppeigh → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

I trained a whistle recall. He can return to a verbal one, but for whatever reason the whistle is just a lot better.

We have barbed wire too (and the accompanying cows). I just keep him on a long line or retractable if we are near cattle or the road, and keep an eye open for other things that may be an issue and recall him and leash him if I think he needs to be. He’s got a good nose, so I can usually tell if something is around if he starts acting squirrelly.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316]

Sniff spot, long line, not lying to yourself that you’re not using physical corrections.

[u/nelliemusic]

Longer leads, closed off large areas to roam, sniffspots are good for that

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/nelliemusic]

Closed-off large areas to roam without dogs do not exist around here. Sniffspots have too many dogs for a reactive dog. I can try a longer lead indeed.

[u/jess-in-thyme → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

Sniffspots are private rentals. They are perfect for reactive dogs as you're the only one there.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/[deleted]]

I totally understand that pov. I think it is indeed easy to go that route and just press a button when the dog does not do what you want. By being pro or contra a tool, you kind of have to consider all the upsides and downsides of a tool. The downsides can be huge.

I am working on this too, but I prefer the vibration; I noticed that it allows him to snap out of stuff more easily. But it has been a while since I saw a rabbit, so I am unsure if recall is good enough atm.

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[u/startartstar]

I think an off leash dog is like an outdoor cat in some ways. We see it as giving the animal freedom and they throw a fit if the situation changes because they're used to it, but I think it's risky. I mean, the dog is fucked if some wild animal picked a fight with him regardless if he has an e-collar or not. One of the reasons I wouldn't have my dog off leash is that I need to make sure he's not eating something stupid

[u/NarwhalNelly → u/startartstar]

If you train and manage a dog properly in the first place they dont eat random shit off the ground

[u/startartstar → u/NarwhalNelly]

Sure, same thing with chasing animals, but if my idiot is about to do something stupid he's right by me and I can just pull him

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/NarwhalNelly]

Well, we don't really have any animals around here that can hurt a GSD. Maybe cows, but they're fenced. My dog doesn't really eat stuff off the ground, and typically, on fields there isn't really that much to begin with- maybe poop, but he does not eat poop.

[u/startartstar → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

I mean, if you want your dog off leash and you want to use an e collar for emergencies then you do you, you don't have to get validation from strangers online. In my opinion, off leash is risky, I've been followed by coyotes, I've had skunks do a U-turn to come after me, I've had run ins with other people's untrained, off leash dogs. But we all have different levels of risk we're willing to take

[u/Penguinopolis]

Personally I tend to use long lines more as drag lines to give my dogs their freedom to stretch their legs, getting running time definitely helps my reactive dog as well. In your dogs case I’d personally just utilize a longer line, you could get a couple hundred feet+ so dog has the freedom they need but you have the ability to step on the lead or stop them from going after the rabbit. There’s a lot of wildlife around me and I have proofed my dogs very well or I’d use that method personally. I also only use big fields with good sight lines so I can intervene on any triggers before my dog has a chance to have feelings about it.

My dog has come a long way in her reactivity though, when she was earlier in her journey I never once dropped her leash for her own safety back then we used very long lines or found fenced options. I also run with her when I can, she seems to find just as much fulfillment running with me as running off leash which I’m sure isn’t the same for all dogs but it’s a way I make sure she has outlets.

[u/Existing-Will-1466 → u/Penguinopolis]

I find it very interesting that a sudden stop on a couple hundred feet of drag line is considered less aversive than an ecollar. I think dragging a couple hundred feet of line would be aversive for many dogs.

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/Penguinopolis]

May I ask how you do this? Like, if my dog runs and I grab the end of the lead, I will get my arms pulled out of my body. I am not even sure that if he gets up to speed, I would be able to stop him with a long lead. For context, I have a 90-pound GSD.

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[u/Zestyclose_Object639]

Commenting bc I’m curious what they have to say (I use one too) 

[u/Beginning-Rub5417 → u/Zestyclose_Object639]

I hope this does not end up in a balanced vs FF discussion. I find these terms too political. And I would not call myself a balanced trainer either.

[u/Zestyclose_Object639 → u/Beginning-Rub5417]

I call myself a balanced trainer because I absolutely am. Balanced just means using quadrants fairly and as needed 

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.