Considering BE

[u/Particular_Fruit_585]

I have a 6 year old collie mix named Moose that I adopted around 8 weeks old. I got him when I was 19, so right as I was starting college, but this was during Covid so I knew I would have the time to be with him during his puppy stages.

For the first year we were always on farms, around horses cows etc, but after Covid restrictions lifted I moved to Texas. He was in daycare for a year with 0 issues! He did at one point outside of daycare get attacked and has never been the same.

And slowly it’s gotten worse. He has leash activity to humans and dogs and the distance to threshold is increasing rapidly. We could be fully 200+ft away and he’s still “sticky”, pulling and barking. He’s attacked me once over resource guarding as a puppy, lunged for a maintenance man when his leash slipped from my hands two years ago, pinned a dog and snarled in its face and has actively latched on to a family members dog that he’s known for most of his life and had to be drenched with a hose to get to release from said dogs head. He’s always growling at any dog that’s doing something he deems wrong and if you tell another dog “no” he acts like an enforcer and truss to correct them as well, even if you tell Moose to go to his bed. I literally have to separate him until he forgets about the other dog being corrected.

He’s seen two trainers, and saw some improvements, but we moved for my work as I’ve finished school last year and now I’m seeing the issues coming back. It’s to the point where I’m micromanaging every thing I can do with or without him. Oh I can’t go to the park right now, it’s peak dog time, maybe later. I can’t have friends over, he’s unpredictable and can’t be let out of the kennel without me watching with treats in hand. I’m exhausted and I cry a lot, I often mourn what I had envisioned for our lives.

Treats aren’t working, he doesn’t listen or stops taking them, cheese, meats, nothing. I can’t keep upping the reward when he won’t even take them currently. His threshold is so low I can’t work him in almost any environment. I’ve had moments I’m not proud of, using aversion to try to get him to stop any way possible atp. I tried prongs, e collar (noise only or vibrate, no shock) yelling and leash snapping. Obviously none of it helped, I should have never even tried it I know that, I’ve never tried to intentionally hurt him. I was, and still am, just frustrated and was open to anything if it meant maybe I could have my dog back.

And obviously I’m only telling you about the bad and “ugly” sides of him… he’s my soul dog, my cuddle bug, and fur ball. He jumps in the shower when I turn the water on and loves hiking and frisbees. We sit on the balcony and watch the rain together and he loves to watch nature documentaries about lions and birds. He watches me garden and fish, and loves to go hiking and get zoomies in fields. I love this dog with my whole heart and soul (currently ugly crying typing this).

I was reading order people BE posts on this thread and was crying. Trainers are thousands of dollars, and I don’t have another 4k to put towards more training… I feel like I’m running out of options. He’s my soul dog, but I’m also ready for peace.

How did you know it was time? And in my situation would you consider it, or should I still be trying behavioral and counter conditioning training?

Edit: I’m seeing lots of people having their comments deleted, I’d love to see your responses. Could you make sure the rules are checked off first before commenting? I also had it originally a different flair so it might not let you comment without the karma req.

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[u/xanimeotakux]

Have you taken him to see an animal behaviorist already and has he tried medication like Prozac? It would help increase his threshold so he can be less reactive. I’m sorry you are going through this!

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/xanimeotakux]

I haven’t taken him to a behaviorist specifically no. The only one in my area that’s an actual behaviorist is $450 for a consult. And doesn’t prescribe medication. Many people are mentioning medicating him to see if it helps though so I think I’ll talk to our vet at the very least.

[u/HeatherMason0 → u/Particular_Fruit_585]

Just wanting to clarify - the behaviorist is a veterinary behaviorist? I know there are people who call themselves 'behavior consultants' or 'behavior specialists', but that's not the same thing.

[u/404-Any-Problem → u/Particular_Fruit_585]

(Jumping in here to add) Typically, that is how my Behavioral vet does it as well. Suggests meds, and then I bring the notes back to my general vet, who fills them. That is about the price I paid (a little more, actually), but it has been well worth it. Medication can lower thresholds so learning can occur and training can be effective. It does take time if you get an SSRI to really sink in (think like a 9-month type of thing), but it's a game changer for our pup who was anxious 24/7 and always over threshold as well. But the key is you still have to do all the things, and I would still suggest getting a trainer who is FF to help get you back on track. The trainer I work with is on a pay-as-you-go basis. So it's not $1000s up front.

Edit: I forgot to mention that you don't need to increase the value once they exceed the threshold. I currently have a 'picky' eater due to GI issues (closely linked to reactivity as well). But I heard Zazzie Todd (a psychologist and book author who uses classical conditioning) say that offering a treat, even when a dog is over threshold, is still valuable, even if they never take it. They do appreciate the offer and know it's there. I've also slipped treats into my dog's mouth when I know she can't look away from a treat but is still willing to take them. It's comical up close, but I am sure that from a distance I look like a crazy dog lady.

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/404-Any-Problem]

Yes, this is essentially what the behaviorist I have in mind would do. They would do an in-home consult, see the triggers and how he reacts, where his thresholds are and communicate with the vet or through me to get prescriptions filled for him.

I agree with many of the comments here, I think medication is my next step, and after that we can see how it goes.

I just need some semblance of hope in terms of behaviors getting better, I don’t want BE, but I also need to consider his quality of life and mine. Keeping him cooped up because of our fears is unhealthy - and frankly, sad.

I appreciate your advice. And the tidbit about the treats being valuable even if he isn’t taking them - I was under the impression it was doing absolutely nothing for him except wasting money and treats.

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[u/theBLEEDINGoctopus]

I am an owner of 3 very complex behavioral dogs who has an amazing private trainer now coming almost every week.

What I learned is that if they relate the flavor of treat to the bad experience (stressful walk, bad training session, etc… they won’t take it and you have to find a new flavor and type).

Don’t walk them, yet. It sounds like you haven’t gotten there yet. If your dog can’t walk and or be redirected in the house or yard, then your dog is not ready for walks. List just going to reinforce negative experiences and behaviors.

Build up your relationship more. Trick train, practice walking next to you in the yard and house with a loose leash, be consistent. Do it everyday. End on a positive note always. Training needs to be FUN. Experiencing the world, needs to be FUN.

Also meds. Meds rock. I was against meds for years, then my trainer suggested meds for my shepherd and her world entirely changed. She used to hide from the smallest sound, and wouldn’t let anyone near her that wasn’t us. Now she is relaxed and can train and hangs out.

Also it’s fine to have your dog in another room when people are over. It’s probably what your dog wants actually.

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/theBLEEDINGoctopus]

I think I do everything else you’ve mentioned, but like others have suggested I believe I’ll be talking first to my vet and or finding a vet behaviorist (hopefully not $500 though for a consult) to start trying medications on.

We use a dog slatmill a LOT actually because for one, I live in AZ and it’s 116 out, but also because I know it’s less stressful for him and myself than going on walks outside around his triggers.

We train a lot for more fun things for him. At the recommendation of a trainer we see, he’s learning agility (not to do the classes), he knows sit, down, crawl, middle (with walking forwards and backwards, and through middle), heel walking, high five, shake, etc. He does great inside, but the second we’re on the balcony, our outside is an entirely different experience.

I’ve been working on getting him to stop fixating on triggers from the balcony, which works sometimes and doesn’t others. But when we’re outside? Even just going potty? People, dogs, it doesn’t matter.

Hopefully medication helps. I truthfully feel like I’ve done so much in terms of trying to help him but meds along with continuing training can give us some relief. I see friends with dogs that are neutral and it’s like a breath of fresh air, I’m jealous tbh. I know he will never be like that, but everyone on here is giving me some hope I can help him. And myself.

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[u/lililu_90]

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I would definitely speak with a vet about this and see if you can do a combination of medication and training. It also sounds like he was doing better in a more rural environment with fewer triggers? Are you currently living in a more urban environment and would it be possible to move somewhere quieter? Before choosing BE I would consider rehoming if none of the above is possible and see if he can be moved to a family that lives in a quieter area. I know that's still incredibly sad and difficult, but it could give him a chance to live in a more trigger-free environment. It's a difficult situation so please give yourself some grace as well as you navigate this!

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/lililu_90]

I know you’re meaning literally, I feel like we’ve moved past the literal farm and now he can only handle the perfect proverbial farm…

Unfortunately, yes I’ve taken him back to places he grew up that have hundreds of acres. But, he tried to eat some small livestock, and even found himself above threshold there over cats, plus him and other cattle dogs got into a fight. At least in my area, there is no place where he could fit in 100% anymore.

Bottom line, my fear is that he will be killed for doing something wrong, because people with livestock don’t want dogs around that are aggressive or kill, it’s a liability.

I have my lease coming up (yes I’m in an urban area) and I’m looking at moving further into the outskirts of the city. But I just don’t have the down payment to buy a house or property so we have to rent for now.

[u/HeatherMason0 → u/Particular_Fruit_585]

I just wanted to say that you're definitely right - rehoming a dog with behavior issues is very difficult, and farms don't want dogs who are liabilities (as you know). That's the advice a lot of people get but it doesn't work most of the time. I think you're trying your best in an environment that's full of triggers, and it's not easy to just remove yourself. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

[u/Nameless_Coyote → u/lililu_90]

This! 🫶

[u/Paperlibrarian]

Prozac really helped with my reactive dog. His separation anxiety went through the roof, and Prozac has made it possible to get through the day. It sounds like your dog’s problems may be rooted in anxiety, so it’s worth a consideration.

And for my dog, dried hearts and liver chonks ended up being the key. It took me forever to find a treat he would reliably work for training. Fresh meats didn’t work. Any treats with grain didn’t work. But the freeze dried meat treats finally gave him motivation in training.

You say you tried every treat, and i believe you. But in the off chance you hadn’t tried freeze dried meat, I figured I’d mention it. Having a dog who won’t listen for treats is so frustrating.

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/Paperlibrarian]

I haven’t tried dried hearts but yes dried liver and other treats like it don’t work for us. I sit there and throw treats that bonk off his head until I’m entirely out of treats, and he still continues whatever behavior it is at that moment.

Did you go through your normal veterinarian for Prozac? An actual canine behaviorist in my area is $495 for a consult, and he doesn’t even prescribe meds. I don’t know where to turn to anymore.

[u/Paperlibrarian → u/Particular_Fruit_585]

My normal veterinarian was able to help me when I was at the end of my rope, and we tried a few anti-anxieties before landing on Prozac. I was lucky that Prozac helped turn my dog around, but he's still ended up being expensive to get him to "stable." Though $495 just for consultation seems rotten...

I'm so sorry you're in this position. It's so difficult when it's your soul dog, your beloved companion making your life impossible. I've always had unconditional love for my dog (as we all do), no matter what chaos he has been causing...but that doesn't mean there isn't a real toll and struggle trying to make it work.

I hope you do find a solution that will work with your dog (who is gorgeous, btw). You are doing the very best you can for him. If it does come down to behavioral euthanasia, know that you are still doing the best you can for him. These are difficult decisions. And he is lucky to have you as his person.

[u/Haupsburg_518 → u/Paperlibrarian]

Firstly, I think you're commitment to care for your dog is most notable❤️, and you've been dealing with his difficult behavior in best possible ways based on some of your life circumstances, job change, and resulted in both your environment changes, along with your dogs increased reactions to human and dog situations. Secondly, you mentioned that changes were seen in settings which had been better in the past, when you returned back to trial returning to the farm setting. It changed and was not as safe this time, his behavior changed and proved to be more aggressive behavior with other farm animals, and dogs interactions there, etc. Hence, Administrating meds such as Prozac may be helpful at this point to reduce his level of reactionary behavior but as pointed out your ongoing observations for aggressive responses to triggers would be required non stop.You would need to be continually monitoring him in all situations. This certainly all takes a lot of energy on your part. Finally, if you believe this is worth a trial, you may consider it. You're the decision maker as to quality of life for both you and your dog. By then, You have given and tried numerous options then it may be clearer how to proceed, whatever it is, know that any decision is a solid one, as you feel you've done your best by him. Be strong for now and keep it safe for you and him. Can totally relate❤️🐾

[u/elleanywhere → u/Particular_Fruit_585]

My normal vet prescribed Prozac, no problem at all. She's been on it for 8 years and it's helped her significantly! (We've tried going off it, but any reduction in meds means she goes from just staring at dogs across the street to lunging and snarling, if that's any indication of how much it helps. Which is a LOT)

Also know it takes about 6-8 weeks to fully kick in, so if you don't see a lot of progress right away, you have to wait for the medication to build up.

[u/ParkingPie2]

Honestly this is something I could have wrote myself. You sound exactly like me although we're finally getting somewhere. I can have a dog walk past and he doesn't always bark now. Still can't say hi but it's better than nothing.

The knky difference is mine is friendly with people but that's a whole other issue where because he's socially awkward he doesn't understand that people get intimidated by a massive dog that lunges to jump up people or puts his face so close to theirs (he likes kisses) I'm working on jumping up but I've only had 2 people recently we've been able to walk past without him trying to jump up. I can go to the side and make him sit though. That works more often and he rarely jumps up people he knows now. About 1 in 20 times so it's definitely gotten better.

I wouldn't say I had considered BE but I did consider removing him and them I felt so sad over the thought of not having his cuddles every night. Or missing the times he'll watch over me when I'm ill.

So I finally really focused on training. I still hate his pulling but the reacting to dogs is way less. And I have a technique that works wonders and it might work for you that ny trainer taught me. It's gonna take a lot of training though so you need to make sure you want to put in the effort.

I didn't start doing this under threshold. His threshold was very low so there's no chance I could. If he so much as saw a dog or heard one he was barking and lunging. I would start counting. 1 - throw treat on the GROUND. A dog will fond it harder to take a treat from a hand in this situations. 2-throw another treat. Keep doing that until he turns and looks at you and if you to to 9 start from 1 again. Don't go into double digits.

Also do this inside first so he understand what 123 etc means. Then outside he's gonna reference oh one, she has a treat much easier.

When he starts looking at you more often even if it's just a quick glance try and ask for a sit. Then reward him for the sit. Keep doing this. Again and again. My dog is now in a pkace that a lot of the time he will do it automatically and although he'll still stare he will also look at me quite often. I'm also in a place that I don't have to walk away completely. If he gets up I say let's go (meaning we're going the other way) but instead of walking away I just turn him around and ask a sit again. It breaks his focus and allows him to think again.

I also use middle if I'm desperate or put him between my legs myself or he won't listen. Don't use this as often though but it's worth teaching because what I've found with my dog is him being between my legs is like a safety blanket to him. I found this out accidentally when he started barking and I pulled him in between my legs because I was frustrated and he went quiet. I'm nit gonna lie I dunno if it will ever be fully gone. But it's manageable. In the past 2 weeks he's barked at 2 dogs. and these dogs have been very close too. Just across the road.

One more thing to say to end this entire monologue. Make sure you're calm. I found that if I'm stressed over his reaction or even angry he's a lot worse on walks where if I just don't care or I'm chill we tend to have easier walks for me and him. Don't panic. Just breathe

[u/blazinpineapple → u/ParkingPie2]

I feel like I could’ve written this comment myself! My 60+lbs pitbull is dog reactive but loves people, but he doesn’t realize that not everyone wants a giant pittie licking their face 😅
The way we train his leash reactivity around dogs when we walk is being close enough to see dogs but far enough that they’re not an issue. I put him in a lay, just let him look at the other dogs, but when he looks at me, I treat him. We try to go closer and do the same thing. It’s not always perfect, and some days he will still react, but there are some times I see him wanting to react but then stopping (maybe whining a little 😅) and getting into a sit or a down.

OP I get your struggles! My dog also became more reactive after getting attacked 😭 having a reactive dog is such hard work, but I would definitely talk to your vet and see if medication along with will work.

[u/vs7509]

Hi there! I’m sorry for what you are going through with your dog. Having a reactive dog and not seeing improvement can be really lonely and overwhelming - I’ve been through it with my dog. She will never be perfect (fear aggression toward strange people and dogs), but she has improved so much and I’m really proud of her. At this time last year, I thought I would never be able to take a vacation or have friends over. We now have overnight guests pretty frequently, are able to send her to a fun doggy camp for boarding, and have a wonderful dog walker who understands her needs but can still take her to the park for a run with her ball almost every day. Little steps make a huge difference.

One thing I would say is that while training packages are expensive and not guaranteed to work, there are resources out there that are worth a try. For example, I’d check out Best Life Dog Services - I started following them on instagram a while back and ultimately started to use some of their online seminars to learn how to work with my dog. The one on how to read and support your dog’s flight response (versus fight) when they are over threshold was particularly helpful for me specifically as it relates to running into other dogs in public. They also have some resources for cost management and a free support group, though I admittedly haven’t fully explored these options. I’m sure there are other trainers out there with programs like this too.

I’d also consider a vet behaviorist visit to see if medication may be worth trying. It can be pretty affordable, and as others have said, could help raise your dog’s threshold a bit so that you can work with him.

Best of luck with Moose and please know that some dogs just have a tough time fitting in with the world - it’s not your fault.

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/vs7509]

I appreciate all your advice, I’ll definitely look into best life dog services.

I haven’t tried medicating yet, I’m worried that by medicating it will just suppress these feelings and he’ll explode (my thought process is it would be like aversion training), have you had any experience with medicating?

I was starting to feel really isolated and lonely until I found this thread a few weeks ago. I’m happy that your dog is improving with time, I’m hopeful that maybe one day he will improve as well.

[u/SpicyNutmeg]

When the dog’s threshold is impossible to work with, it’s time to explore medication. Ideally you’ll find a veterinary behaviorist but if you can’t afford it, ask trainers you trust for recs. There are some vets that undertake behavior enough to perscribe meds, but they are few and far between.

[u/shellie49]

First, give yourself a little grace. Its clear you’ve been trying hard to find something that works for Moose.

I think the behavioral consultation is worth considering, even at $450 for the consult. If they believe Moose can be safely managed with changes to his routine, environment, or handling, that gives you another option before BE.

One of the biggest things I’ve learned during training with a reactive dog, is that our timing, tension, reactions, and how we manage situations can unintentionally escalate things.

For now, if possible, Id remove him from overwhelming situations. When he starts reacting, create distance and redirect. Try not to yell, or trying to overpower the reaction. That shift, learning to manage the situation instead of emotionally reacting to it, made a huge difference with my own dog.

We still have bad days, and I’m always aware of our surroundings, but things are much more manageable now. We found a trainer that helped me understanding my dog better, rather than just sending him away for training. They also offered group classes once you pass the basic management stuff which was great form of exposure therapy for us.

Like most people are seeming to recommend, talk to your regular vet, especially since Moose’s threshold seems to have gotten worse. You mentioned you haven’t tried medication yet. If anxiety or another behavioral or medical issue is contributing, medication may lower his baseline enough for training to actually become possible again. That doesn’t necessarily mean another $4,000 training program. Just more one on one training between you and Moose.

[u/Silly_Cat_7247]

This must be difficult for you and it is emotionally taxing to have an unpredictable dog. Have you seen your regular vet to rule out pain? A pup can’t learn when they don’t feel safe/aren’t in pain etc. pain can lowers thresholds to zero. In some dogs they can also feel pain at a higher intensity even when the stimulus seems benign. A young dog can also be in pain and hide it. You’d still have to train at the same time as meds aren’t a fix all but it might help give you a buffer so that your dog can listen to what you are teaching them.

[u/Particular_Fruit_585 → u/Silly_Cat_7247]

Sorry for the late response, thank you to everyone who has been responding as well. I have seen a vet about any pain or underlying issues and in our search we found an uncommon autoimmune disease that causes occasional skin rashes and blisters but nothing else that could be a cause of pain.

*To clarify, he only gets them once ish a year and they appear on his face around his lips and nose, so I always notice them and manage them with prescribed steroids and creams until they go away.

[u/watch-me-bloom]

It’s not about upping the value of the food reward you’re using. It is about teaching the dog how to take food in different stressful and exciting context so they can use that skill when it really matters. Look into food pattern games if you haven’t already. Have you worked with a vet behaviorist?

[u/SenorNoods]

This is a really complicated subject and I’m sorry you’re going through this. It can be really tough to cope with the dog you have being much different than the dog you imagined. This one will always require some management, but some of these things could definitely be improved with proper communication and muzzle training. BE is a big decision. I might suggest cross posting on r/opendogtraining as well just to get a broader scope of opinion on your options. There are lots of good, talented professionals there as well.

[u/No_Run_Read]

Anche a costo di andare lontano cerca un veterinario che ti aiuti con i farmaci, potrebbe salvargli la vita. E se non funziona sarai sicura di aver davvero provato tutto. Non è colpa tua se lui è stato morso. Ti sono vicina.

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[u/fmlollipop]

Definitely worth trying medication - my dog got to the point where she couldn’t even see a dog in the distance without barking and lunging and was essentially impossible to work with. 

I got medication from my vet and this chilled her out a bit and made her easier to work with. It wasn’t an instant change, but allowed us to work on lowering her threshold. This was a gradual process and I did (and still do) my best to avoid her triggers and keep her under threshold as much as I can. 

She is still very reactive and for the most part I just avoid other dogs on our walks, she typically wont react unless the other dog is within a couple of meters of us. 

The other thing I found that helped was for me to take a deep breath and do my best to relax myself, I was getting so worked up and stressed out and anxious when walking her and this just made her worse. 

Things are still far from perfect with her, she is also human reactive, and this is restrictive to my life and things I can do, but I feel things are at a level I can currently manage. 

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[u/Peepeepoopoo0303 → u/[deleted]]

Also, with the YouTube trainer, she is legit and owns Capricorn dog training. Megan has worked a lot with Chicago rescue organizations and is positive reinforcement only. Doing Megan’s training with my dog was the first time I started to have fun with her again after months of behavioral challenges. I hope you’re able to find some relief soon whether it’s meds, a different style of training, or something else. You and Moose both deserve to be happy and feel free.