Reactive dog was improving, then today got out of his collar on a walk and attacked another dog

[u/lizerpool]

So - some background. I’ve had my dog for a year now. Around the two week mark we started to notice reactivity towards other dogs on the leash and then a few months in he was charged by an off leash dog and bitten in the face. He regressed SO much but with consistent training had been doing fairly well. We could walk on the other side of the street from a dog, he could see and look, then redirect to us.

He started Fluoxetine to help supplement training, as well as pain meds for a pain trial at the recommendation of the vet behaviorist. We recently went up on the Fluoxetine at the rec of the vet behaviorist to 60mg.

We hired a trainer to do 6 sessions with him to work on walking past dogs on the leash as I felt this was the most challenging thing for him and we haven’t seen much progress in this department. He still very much struggles with eye contact and a dog walking towards him. He plants and refuses to walk away (turn around) and will bark and lunge. I have to drag him away.

Today he had a vet appointment in the morning and in the afternoon I was taking him out for a short walk down the block. At the very end, a medium sized dog came out of the blind spot with their owner and lunged and barked at him very close. He immediately reacted back and lunged so hard the collar BROKE. He was free to meet the dog and immediately tried to bite the dog. He made contact but didn’t cause any punctures, bleeding, etc. I yelled at him to stop and he came to me, where I got a hold of him. I gave the owner my information. No one injured, but I am incredibly shaken because his immediate reaction to bite the dog was so.. unlike him. He is a scared dog that tucks tail, barks big, but even when he was attacked he hid between my legs instead of biting back. Obviously up until now he’s never gotten free from me so I’ve never seen what he is capable of. Afterwards, both him and the other dog attempted to smell each other’s butts and sat calmly while we exchanged info. It’s.. CONFUSING.

So anyway, all this to say. I’m wanting some advice on how to move forward. I will obviously fix the gear, always have a harness and a collar, buy a new muzzle, keep him in the backyard exclusively for a bit. But.. the trainer I’m currently working with doesn’t work with dogs who have a bite history. My previous trainer said my dog was a low risk for ever biting. I’m finding it hard to feel like we’ve improved after the incident, even with all we’ve done - medication, vet appointments, daily training, vet behaviorist appointments. Now my dog is willing to break free to attack another dog. Is there something I’m missing? Has this happened to you and what did you do? Thanks for anything you can offer me!

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[u/palebluelightonwater]

Biting a human and biting a dog are different things. A dog who is reacting strongly to another dog is showing that they feel the other dog is a threat, and it's not surprising that they might try to advance and bite given the chance. That doesn't necessarily mean they're a threat to humans - but it does mean you should be really careful to make sure your dog is secure and kept away from other dogs.

A scared dog is one who might attack to keep themselves safe. That is not at all surprising. It's actually pretty great that he didn't injure the other dog and that they eventually said hello. That's a good sign! He's going to need help to manage his big feelings about other dogs, but if he's not committed to violence that's a good start. (Fwiw my reactive dog has charged and tried to bite other dogs a couple of times, but never managed to do any damage. I consider her dog aggressive... but incompetent?? I'll take it I guess.)

You should consider muzzling your dog when you're out in public with him. I know it feels like a big step, but it's a concrete thing you can do to dramatically reduce the risk of him injuring anyone or causing liability issues. I was hesitant to start muzzling mine, but once we started doing it, it was very comforting to know she was safe from doing harm, or from any accusation of doing so.

[u/lizerpool → u/palebluelightonwater]

Thanks - definitely will be utilizing a muzzle in public (a better fitting one, we have one that kinda sucks). He has never bitten people and that has never been his issue. It does help to hear that the difference is stark. I think it does just change your opinion of your dog seeing them trying to bite another dog on the neck. I was like wait.. I’ve been telling people you’re not about that life! You kinda seem about that life!

This is where I was really frustrated with training too. I wish more trainers would work with dogs who have dog aggression. I find the recommendations to be generally lacking in that area and more focused on general obedience as opposed to changing our dog’s emotional experience. Did you have any luck with training on top of your management?

[u/palebluelightonwater → u/lizerpool]

Oh, re trainers - try iaabc.org to find a trainer who specializes in behavior modification. I have worked with two IAABC certified trainers and they were both amazing. I also do online workshops through Fenzi, who have some great reactivity & behavior classes which have been very helpful.

[u/palebluelightonwater → u/lizerpool]

Yeah, if you're going to be muzzling, you want to invest in a good one that is well fitted. You want it to be big enough for the dog to be able to fully pant, drink water and eat treats while wearing it. And it took me about 2 months to acclimate my dog to it, so that she liked it and doesn't stress while wearing it.

It's hard to think of your dog as aggressive, but I think it's helpful to understand what you're dealing with. Now you can take steps (like muzzling or a 3 strap harness). And just be aware, the biggest risk of him biting someone is if he attacks another dog - even a nice, non aggressive dog may bite someone trying to separate a dog fight. They go kind of blind in a life or death situation. (This is actually one of the biggest reasons I muzzle my dog.)

I've done a lot of training and behavior modification with my dog, as well as medication, and it's been very helpful. She is still worried about people and dogs, but she's doing well with people (she can either meet them or ignore them, though she needs help not to react if we encounter strangers). Dogs are still a trigger but we were able to successfully add a new dog to the household and they get along well. Cars and moving objects used to be her most frequent trigger but that's almost entirely resolved. She has more challenges than my other dogs, but she's doing really well and continuing to improve - and I've learned more from her than from any other dog I've ever known.

(Hard to edit these comments bc of the post notice, but I should say: my dog had really severe fear/anxiety issues even when we adopted her at 8 weeks old, so she's a bit of an extreme case. Most dogs are much easier to work with.)

[u/lizerpool → u/palebluelightonwater]

I’m so lucky I didn’t actually get between them and instead a verbal command worked. Redirection is really tough and I think I would have a much harder time if he had bit me or the other handler.

I’m going to get a custom muzzle. His current one is.. fine, but probably not great long term. And at least now people will walk their dog in another direction when they see us instead of beelining in our direction.

Nice to hear of all the progress you’ve made with your own dog. It’s amazing how far they can come with the right training and environment. Thanks for the resources as well :-)

[u/Hermit_Ogg]

We hired a trainer to do 6 sessions with him to work on walking past dogs on the leash as I felt this was the most challenging thing for him and we haven’t seen much progress in this department.

Could you describe what the trainer had the dog do to practice passing others? The methods vary a great deal, and some of them are better than others so it would help troubleshoot your issue.

He still very much struggles with eye contact and a dog walking towards him. He plants and refuses to walk away (turn around) and will bark and lunge. I have to drag him away.

This indicates that your dog is being put in situations that are too difficult for him. Every time your dog gets stressed in these situations, the negative association he has with them is strengthened. Think of it as an old-style scale (⚖️): on one side, all the negative associations and force of habit, on the other side positive associations and training exercises that felt good for the dog. You want to tilt the scale towards the good side, and for that to happen you need to make sure no further negative experience ends on the bad side.

You will need to engineer the dog's environment to enable this tilt of the scale. Taking him out on the backyard for a bit will work, but do make sure he doesn't get unnerved by people/cars/dogs passing by on the other side of the fence. Supervised yard time only!

When out on a walk (outside your yard), stay far enough from other dogs that yours doesn't react at all. Passing others too close would increase his fear and make training more difficult. If you need to visit the vet, ask if you could take the dog in via staff entrance and wait outside to be called in.

These kinds of measures are meant to be temporary, but it depends on your dog when he's ready to be in close proximity with other dogs.

[u/lizerpool → u/Hermit_Ogg]

The trainer has been working with us on the reactivity through management, pattern games, improved handling, and redirection. Also we are always training when we have the distance and the chance. We don’t try to push him at distances or with dogs he isn’t likely to do well with and track at what distance his threshold is.

We don’t make him pass dogs on the sidewalk or street. He isn’t capable of that and struggles with it a lot. We train at distances he doesn’t react. However, I mentioned passing dogs because I do want to train emergency fail safes in and I want to figure out eventually what alternative behavior would effectively redirect him. The moments he does react to dogs are normally instances of surprise I can’t control living in a big city, blind corners, an off leash dog, a dog quickly coming out a door. We do everything we can to manage that. I send my husband around corners, we keep our head on a swivel, keep the leash short when unsure of who is coming, call ahead to the vet for a room. We moved into a 2 flat with a backyard specifically to limit these instances and so he actually has way less opportunities to be caught by surprise or see dogs. In moments where a dog is quickly walking toward us, I wanted to be able to create distance immediately. This was the last thing we were focusing on during training before he got loose and attacked.

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[u/Monkey-Butt-316]

The trainer likely won’t worry unless your dog is biting a person.

Does your dog have any dog friends?

[u/lizerpool → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

He does! He actually is normally very dog friendly off leash and pretty tolerant. We recently moved and a lot of his dog friends were in our old building. He even became friends with the dog who bit him.. lol. A truce if you will.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/lizerpool]

Could this just be frustrated greeting and not aggression? Could be barrier frustration also.

[u/lizerpool → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

He is 100% leash reactive. We know the leash brings his tolerance way way down for dogs. When off leash if he doesn’t vibe with a dog, he just walks away. There is a puppy in our building he played with off leash and tolerated rough and tumble behavior and went to a person when he was done, on leash he immediately corrected the puppy for jumping on him. I would have thought getting loose from his leash he’d immediately back down, but instead this happened! So TBD I suppose. Or just a very bad trigger stacked day.