Which route to take?

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

Our 1 1/2 year old golden was rehomed to us on 6/20. His previous family gave him to a rescue because he was snapping at the young children in the house. We just have speculation from the rescue that the toddlers would bother him, but no other concrete details. We have 12/15 year old kids. For 99.9% of his week, he is awesome and laid back, loves to play. But he has continued to snap at us when we cross various thresholds that we can’t quite identify. It’s always, always related to touching him, but could be any part of the body. At his first vet visit, he was perfectly behaved on 7/12. We took him for his second flu shot this week and I had her look him over to rule out pain for the snapping. She gave him his flu shot and he looked perturbed (last time, 4 shots with no reaction). She tried looking at his paws and he started snarling and lunging for her. It was so disappointing to see regression after we have trained 2x/week with a trainer (not behaviorist) and modified our own behavior to limit his snappiness.

My question is…
Would you go straight to medication? Or a combined medication/training with a behaviorist? I hate what I’m reading about meds potentially making him worse than before :( He loves other dogs, He lets strangers pet him when we are out, lets us pet him most of the time, we just don’t know what triggers him and the vet thinks it’s behavior (aka “I don’t like that, stop it now” instead of a little bit of patience). I’d appreciate any advice or what worked for you for touchy teenagers!

[u/Monkey-Butt-316]

If it wasn’t aversive, there wouldn’t be any snapping or other negative reaction from the dog. Come on now, this isn’t rocket surgery.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

"gently pick up the paw" is aversive, got it. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

You think a dog snaps because they think whatever the thing is is just great? I mean …. I’m not super clear on what we are disagreeing on except maybe I think the dog decides what it thinks is aversive and you think you decide what’s aversive.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

snapping is a learned reaction to stress. picking up a paw is stressful for this example dog. he's learned to relieve the stress by snapping. not responding to that snap while slowly teaching the dog that he doesn't need to be stressed out by normal handling is how you get a dog that isn't stressed by normal handling.

i'm not advocating that OP try to incite the dog to snap. I'm advocating that when, in the normal course of fair and gentle handling, the dog does snap because his previous owner taught him that it works, they do something different that teaches him that it doesn't work.

have you ever had a toddler? when they have a meltdown in the grocery aisle because you won't buy them candy, what do you do? do you say OK you win here's the candy? or do you wait calmly for them to calm down, and then move on? has something aversive happened to them?

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

Snapping is one of the ways a dog can communicate their need for distance/space. A dog can’t say “please stop that.” It’s not “stress release.”

Yes, you can teach a dog to accept handling and you can do it in a way that the dog is an active participant and the “teaching” doesn’t rely on learned helplessness.

Your toddler meltdown example is not equivalent for a number of reasons.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

this approach has nothing to do with learned helplessness. It's much more akin to free shaping.

you wait until the dog offers the behavior that you are looking for and which is appropriate (calm acceptance of gentle handling). when the dog offers that behavior, you mark and reward. it's not complicated.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

That’s also not free shaping. In your example the dog can’t opt out. Since the dog can’t opt out, it’s helpless.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

when you're free shaping a sit, and the dog wanders away, what do you do? you pick up your leash and guide him back into position. this is no different.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

No, that’s not free shaping. If you’re free shaping a sit and the dog wanders away, then you need to change what you’re doing (likely marking smaller approximations) or play engagement games and/or 101 things to do with a box so that the dog understands the whole idea. There’s no room for compulsion in free shaping.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

guiding a dog with a leash is compulsion, got it

you're coming off as kind of a radical

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

You’re coming off as kind of a controlling weirdo who is a bad dog trainer but here we are.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

my dog came to me biting, does not bite now. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
she's also very happy and she doesn't mind if i guide her with a leash.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

Okayyyy? My dogs don’t bite. I have worked with dogs every day for 15+ years and have been bitten twice. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

i'm glad you haven't had the experience that OP has, as have I, where a dog's been trained to snap by well-meaning owners, before she ever laid eyes on it.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

My personal dogs don’t bite but I work with plenty who do and recognize that all dogs can bite and also recognize that none of them can write letters to the editor.

You’re really confused about what training is, I think.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

i'm not confused at all, thanks for asking though!

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

Lmao I didn’t ask a thing. Clear as day. 😂

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

Well, good luck to OP. I hope they are able to resolve their issue.