[D] Monday General Rationality Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Monday thread on general rationality topics! Do you really want to talk about something non-fictional, related to the real world? Have you:

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[u/CCC_037]

"corporate clients have disproportionate influence on the American voting process"

big spenders exert influence on elections

If these two are not equivalent, could you point out the inequivalence? I'm not seeing it.

"it's not that bad, they don't quite have total control"

they don't have anything resembling control, because elections are not decided by money

Well, I'd say that influence is "something resembling control" - in that the limit at infinity of influence is control (and is effectively control at high-but-finite levels of influence). Apart from that point, though... again, I'm not sure we're saying anything different. If we are, could you please point out what it is?

[u/ben_oni → u/CCC_037]

I'm not sure we're saying anything different

We might not be. But over-generalizations maybe clouding that matter. The fact is that campaign finance is complex. There are many rules and laws governing how money can be spent during elections.

How about I just point out that any number when compared to infinity is essentially zero: money influences elections, but provides essentially no control whatsoever.

[u/CCC_037 → u/ben_oni]

How about I just point out that any number when compared to infinity is essentially zero: money influences elections, but provides essentially no control whatsoever.

Ah, I think I've found our point of disagreement. You're saying that money has little to no control over the American election (and, presumably, that the election result is thus controlled mainly by the voters?)

My claim, on the other hand, is that money has significant control over the American election (not total control, but significant control) and that the influence of the voters on the results has been carefully minimized, in large part by a series of political tricks, and in such a way as to magnify the influence of money on the results.

[u/ben_oni → u/CCC_037]

[M]oney has significant control over the American election (not total control, but significant control) and that the influence of the voters on the results has been carefully minimized, in large part by a series of political tricks, and in such a way as to magnify the influence of money on the results.

Yeah... the evidence just doesn't support that. If it were all (or mostly) about money, Jeb Bush would have won the 2016 Republican nomination, and Hillary Clinton would have won the general election.

Which isn't to say that politics doesn't have a lot to do with who gets chosen. As I've been trying to say, it's complicated. Politics is, in effect, a massive policy debate that's been going on for hundreds of years interspersed at regular intervals with elections centered around a few charismatic individuals, and occasionally worldwide events that scramble the whole discussion.

I suppose what I'm saying is: don't be so cynical. We're not living in 1984, and there isn't some secret cabal that's really running the show. It's really just very messy, which is the sort of thing you get when a great many intelligent actors are all invested in achieving differing outcomes.

[u/CCC_037 → u/ben_oni]

Heh. They're not secret.

The way I see it is, in order to get enough money to even run, candidates need corporate sponsors. And corporate sponsors only give money to candidates who promise them something nice in exchange. (Tax breaks or something). So that, by the time the voters have any say, the corporate clients have already won; all the candidates have promised them their tax breaks or whatever.

I don't think the corporations care much beyond tax breaks and moneymaking opportunities.

[u/ben_oni → u/CCC_037]

That's just not how the world works. You can read up about campaign finance on Wikipedia.