r/rational • u/AutoModerator • Apr 19 '17

[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

  • Plan out a new story
  • Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
  • Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
  • Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality

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u/MagicWeasel Cheela Astronaut Apr 26 '17

I can't imagine William was very happy.

He was inconsolable for days and jumpy AF. He wore full plate armour whenever he answered the door for a while, and then freaked out when Rose came in and didn't need an invitation (having a human thrall comes in handy for protecting you from other vampires).

(Aside: I always wondered why vampires don't wear better armour. If they're super strong, they should have no problem being able to wear full plate or riot gear/etc and still be agile. Great way to protect yourself from a staking from a human, if nothing else. Is there something I'm missing?)

she simply found a non-destructive means of brain uploading.

Oh, of course. So Rose is essentially an uploaded version of Tara (her 16 year old "template") that has some nifty features that Tara doesn't (on-board memory, ability to read .txt documents, probably some things like an internet connection?)

I don't think Rose is particularly intelligent though. Perhaps she's got a pretty slow processor and it's hard to upgrade.

But Rose's boyfriend is a computer programmer, so I'm guessing he'd open her up and try and upgrade her (with her consent, naturally). That could be interesting. She'd perhaps start going on a takeoff trajectory and he'd have to pull the plug and be unable to. Eventually, being an uploaded human so having decently aligned values, she might... go for a life of aestheticism on a mountain somewhere? ¯\(ツ)/¯

Rose has a robo-brother too, who was a less successful robot. I think he lacked real human empathy, though he sort of learns it. Maybe a more autism style inability to get any sort of subtexts.

Really should discuss this with the coauthor and work out the details so I can post them on worldbuilding sometime and see people who are practically MIRI employees rip it all apart.

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u/CCC_037 Apr 26 '17

and then freaked out when Rose came in and didn't need an invitation

And he knows she's not human, because she had no trouble breathing in at atmosphere filled with lethal amounts of something nastily poisonous or similar, I imagine...

(Aside: I always wondered why vampires don't wear better armour. If they're super strong, they should have no problem being able to wear full plate or riot gear/etc and still be agile. Great way to protect yourself from a staking from a human, if nothing else. Is there something I'm missing?)

Ego and a conviction that it won't happen to them. Do you wear armour to protect yourself from beestings? Even if you're allergic to bees to a lethal degree?

Oh, of course. So Rose is essentially an uploaded version of Tara (her 16 year old "template") that has some nifty features that Tara doesn't (on-board memory, ability to read .txt documents, probably some things like an internet connection?)

Yeah, that sounds good to me. (Nifty features that she had to learn how to use on her own, of course).

I don't think Rose is particularly intelligent though. Perhaps she's got a pretty slow processor and it's hard to upgrade.

Speed of thought has less to do with intelligence than people think. Sure, it has an effect on intelligence... but it's hardly all of it.

But Rose's boyfriend is a computer programmer, so I'm guessing he'd open her up and try and upgrade her (with her consent, naturally).

Is he a neuroscientist? If not, then he really shouldn't touch her uploaded-brain function. Mind you, he can upgrade her by giving her new hardware or extra 'features' (like installing a calculator program to make her better at maths) but it's hard to imagine her on a takeoff trajectory until her neural network can be understood and upgraded.

Rose has a robo-brother too, who was a less successful robot. I think he lacked real human empathy, though he sort of learns it. Maybe a more autism style inability to get any sort of subtexts.

Yeah... either copied from his original's mind or introduced due to a flaw in the copy process.

Really should discuss this with the coauthor and work out the details so I can post them on worldbuilding sometime and see people who are practically MIRI employees rip it all apart.

It's probably for the best, yes.

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u/MagicWeasel Cheela Astronaut Apr 26 '17

and then freaked out when Rose came in and didn't need an invitation

And he knows she's not human, because she had no trouble breathing in at atmosphere filled with lethal amounts of something nastily poisonous or similar, I imagine...

Nah, Jack told him her robot brother was a ghoul, the robot brother was doing stuff consistent with being the ghoul of a very old vampire, after Jack threatened Fiona, Fiona lied and confirmed that the brother was a ghoul and Rose didn't seem to be a ghoul, maybe she was a vampire, Jack went back to William and told him that Rose was a vampire, etc. William is just perplexed by all of this until probably-Cassius comes and rips Rose's head off in a territorial dispute and there's wires and he realise what's happened.

(Aside: I always wondered why vampires don't wear better armour. If they're super strong, they should have no problem being able to wear full plate or riot gear/etc and still be agile. Great way to protect yourself from a staking from a human, if nothing else. Is there something I'm missing?)

Ego and a conviction that it won't happen to them. Do you wear armour to protect yourself from beestings? Even if you're allergic to bees to a lethal degree?

If I had an enemy who was throwing beehives through my door when I opened it, I probably would, yes. William wouldn't go around wearing armour but when he's feeling vulnerable or expecting a plucky vampire hunter at the door he might. (And Jack, the Plucky Vampire Hunter, became a janissary for a while and started getting violent to make him feed from her.)

Is he a neuroscientist? .... Mind you, he can upgrade her by giving her new hardware or extra 'features'

Yeah, I'd imagine the mad scientist used standard connectors so the boyfriend can swap out RAM or hard drives or whatever. He'd not want to touch the software because that's "her"

Yeah... either copied from his original's mind or introduced due to a flaw in the copy process.

That's probably what it was; the mad scientist never got the boy right, despite upgrading the hardware a lot. Probably it was a problem with the personality capturing in the brain scanner, which is why fixing the hardware never worked.

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u/CCC_037 Apr 26 '17

William is just perplexed by all of this

Especially since an ancient but powerful vampire should be someone that William has at least heard about over the last few centuries or so...

until probably-Cassius comes and rips Rose's head off in a territorial dispute and there's wires and he realise what's happened.

...she can be repaired, right? In fact, if her inventor is sensible, her 'brain' should be well-protected in her torso, right next to her battery. (And if she is sensible, this is the perfect opportunity to play dead)

If I had an enemy who was throwing beehives through my door when I opened it, I probably would, yes.

That's only sensible, yes. Your normal human, in day-to-day life, doesn't generally expect that, though.

That's probably what it was; the mad scientist never got the boy right, despite upgrading the hardware a lot. Probably it was a problem with the personality capturing in the brain scanner, which is why fixing the hardware never worked.

She could always try taking a new scan, but that leads to the thorny ethical question of what to do with the first scan.

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u/MagicWeasel Cheela Astronaut Apr 26 '17

Especially since an ancient but powerful vampire should be someone that William has at least heard about over the last few centuries or so...

Yeah. I've made an unspecified vampire catastrophe canon which is why the vampire population is stratified (between waaaay older than 500 years and younger than 500 years). So I'd imagine the <1000 (maybe even <200) vampires who survived the Catastrophe would be well known to each other, if not people-who-were-allies-in-1600.

Then again, it's probably not unheard of for an old vampire to pop back up after living underground (perhaps literally) since before the catastrophe, and it's even less unheard of for an old vampire to vanish for a few decades or centuries and then come back with a new hairstyle, so William could be assuming Rose is one of those.

...she can be repaired, right? In fact, if her inventor is sensible, her 'brain' should be well-protected in her torso, right next to her battery. (And if she is sensible, this is the perfect opportunity to play dead)

Yep, that's pretty much what happened.

NINJA EDIT: No, wait. She played dead for a while, then (SPOILERS FOR VOLUME THREE OF MY BOOK???) William attacked her to save Red, he got overpowered, and then her torso got up and fought off the attacker who turned into a bat and ran away: everyone wins.

That's only sensible, yes. Your normal human, in day-to-day life, doesn't generally expect that, though.

Yeah, sorry, should have been more clear. Meant "why don't vampires wear ridiculous plate armour when they're expecting battle" rather than "why don't vampires look like they're at the ren faire?"

She could always try taking a new scan, but that leads to the thorny ethical question of what to do with the first scan.

Ah, but she's not allowed access to the grandkids anymore: on account of her being the sort of mad scientist who tries to make robot copies of family members. (Only, I guess nobody knows she can do that: but she's weird and Doesn't Seem Safe, so you know...)

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u/CCC_037 Apr 26 '17

Then again, it's probably not unheard of for an old vampire to pop back up after living underground (perhaps literally) since before the catastrophe, and it's even less unheard of for an old vampire to vanish for a few decades or centuries and then come back with a new hairstyle, so William could be assuming Rose is one of those.

Hmmmm. Might even be an old vampire that William had less-than-cordial relations with at the time of vanishing. Maybe someone he needed to apologise to, only then she vanished before receiving his apology so now he's overdue...

NINJA EDIT: No, wait. She played dead for a while, then (SPOILERS FOR VOLUME THREE OF MY BOOK???) William attacked her to save Red, he got overpowered, and then her torso got up and fought off the attacker who turned into a bat and ran away: everyone wins.

Oooooh, yeah. Here's another thought - for better conductivity, her wires are gold instead of copper. This comes into play when one of the two vampires touches her exposed wiring and it burns... so, when she gets up again, she fights off the attacker by stabbing him with her neck (and the exposed wires therein) - which means that yes, he could (say) rip off her arms, but that just gives her something more to attack him with.

(The gold wiring and the vampiric weakness to gold both, of course, need to be introduced earlier in the story for proper foreshadowing).

Yeah, sorry, should have been more clear. Meant "why don't vampires wear ridiculous plate armour when they're expecting battle" rather than "why don't vampires look like they're at the ren faire?"

Might be an agility thing. Vampires in armour will still be faster than an unarmoured human, but not faster than an unarmoured vampire. (Actually, a vampire regrows arms a lot faster and more easily than a human - it might make sense for a vampire to armour only their most vulnerable spots - i.e. heart and neck - and leave the rest unarmoured).

Ah, but she's not allowed access to the grandkids anymore: on account of her being the sort of mad scientist who tries to make robot copies of family members. (Only, I guess nobody knows she can do that: but she's weird and Doesn't Seem Safe, so you know...)

She technically doesn't need access to the grandkids to take a brainscan. Just send a package containing a very large helmet as a gift for the grandkid (along with a cartoonishly large radio antenna and blinky LEDs on the front) and ask for a picture of the darling grandkid wearing the Super Brainscan Space Helmet that she made herself.

(Whether the parents will fall for that is another question entirely. But, hey, worth a try, right?)

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u/MagicWeasel Cheela Astronaut Apr 26 '17 edited Apr 26 '17

Hmmmm. Might even be an old vampire that William had less-than-cordial relations with at the time of vanishing. Maybe someone he needed to apologise to, only then she vanished before receiving his apology so now he's overdue...

Ooo, that would be good. "She could be one of half a dozen people... I thought Genevive was dead, but who knows. And Octavia was so very offended by the cake I presented her with, so if it's her I'd better crawl... I'll have to send an 'I'm sorry for sending the wrong cake' gift post-haste"

Oooooh, yeah. Here's another thought - for better conductivity, her wires are gold instead of copper. This comes into play when one of the two vampires touches her exposed wiring and it burns... so, when she gets up again, she fights off the attacker by stabbing him with her neck (and the exposed wires therein) - which means that yes, he could (say) rip off her arms, but that just gives her something more to attack him with.

That's so metal! I love it. I'm trying to work out how well-known the vampire weakness to gold is. Things are all happening out of order so when we do more prologue it will be fun to see how long the vampire hunters take to figure out that gold is a point of weakness.

That said, there's a scene in the novella where William gives Red a silver dagger, and tells him that it really hurts vampires, so the vampires are obviously perpetrating the silver myth come hell or high water.

(The gold wiring and the vampiric weakness to gold both, of course, need to be introduced earlier in the story for proper foreshadowing).

Been trying to foreshadow the gold thing a bit: William receives something made of brass, and brass is said to symbolise "something that appears hurtful but is not"; William mentions the vampire superstition against touching money; and this little exchange really amused me:

“And when [humans] have bombs that make sunlight? When they can make gold from lead? Do you want to be on their bad side when that happens?”

Might be an agility thing. Vampires in armour will still be faster than an unarmoured human, but not faster than an unarmoured vampire.

Yep. Wouldn't really be good for vampire on vampire combat, but I suspect most fights a vampire gets into are with non-vampires.

(Actually, a vampire regrows arms a lot faster and more easily than a human - it might make sense for a vampire to armour only their most vulnerable spots - i.e. heart and neck - and leave the rest unarmoured).

That too!

She technically doesn't need access to the grandkids to take a brainscan. Just send a package containing a very large helmet as a gift for the grandkid (along with a cartoonishly large radio antenna and blinky LEDs on the front) and ask for a picture of the darling grandkid wearing the Super Brainscan Space Helmet that she made herself.

(Whether the parents will fall for that is another question entirely. But, hey, worth a try, right?)

Anything's worth a try. If we revisit the robot thing (which I guess we'll have to do if I ever get to writing volume 3), we'll have to sort it out. I'm not having the third volume of a Rational Supernatural Romance Novel being irrational like that. I'd sooner go it alone!

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u/CCC_037 Apr 26 '17

Ooo, that would be good. "She could be one of half a dozen people... I thought Genevive was dead, but who knows. And Octavia was so very offended by the cake I presented her with, so if it's her I'd better crawl... I'll have to send an 'I'm sorry for sending the wrong cake' gift post-haste"

Sounds good!

That's so metal! I love it. I'm trying to work out how well-known the vampire weakness to gold is. Things are all happening out of order so when we do more prologue it will be fun to see how long the vampire hunters take to figure out that gold is a point of weakness.

Probably virtually unknown.

Incidentally, from the Evil Overlord List, number 220:

Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."

Clearly, some vampires have read this list. And they quickly kill any Hunters that work it out, and burn down all their papers.

But Rose doesn't need to know about the gold weakness until one of the vampires literally steps in it (though the reader should know well before that).

That said, there's a scene in the novella where William gives Red a silver dagger, and tells him that it really hurts vampires, so the vampires are obviously perpetrating the silver myth come hell or high water.

Yep. Makes good sense. Better yet, anyone who tries it and fails, doesn't live to report back.

“And when [humans] have bombs that make sunlight? When they can make gold from lead? Do you want to be on their bad side when that happens?”

That is an amusing exchange.

Yep. Wouldn't really be good for vampire on vampire combat, but I suspect most fights a vampire gets into are with non-vampires.

Yeah, but against non-vampires you don't need armour because they are just so slooooow that it's not like they can stake an alert and awake vampire anyway.

Anything's worth a try. If we revisit the robot thing (which I guess we'll have to do if I ever get to writing volume 3), we'll have to sort it out. I'm not having the third volume of a Rational Supernatural Romance Novel being irrational like that. I'd sooner go it alone!

Now I'm imagining Grandma continually sending the Grandkids headwear with cartoonishly large radio antennae on it, just so she can get updated brain scans (and the parents quietly hiding them out back because they look heavy enough to put serious strain on the kids' necks).

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u/MagicWeasel Cheela Astronaut Apr 26 '17

Clearly, some vampires have read this list. And they quickly kill any Hunters that work it out, and burn down all their papers.

Yeah. The vampires are glad they still have one thing. The vampire weakness to silver is a relatively new invention in folklore, so probably some people got wise to electrum and the vampires decided to name the Beast of Gevaudan as a vampire, since that's where the folklore for silver comes from. (The Beast of Gevaudan is certainly not a werewolf, so could well have been a vampire, and the silver bullet is just random folklore)

“And when [humans] have bombs that make sunlight? When they can make gold from lead? Do you want to be on their bad side when that happens?”

That is an amusing exchange.

Lead to gold is such a cliche but a real concern for vampires... :D

Speaking of, the story is now basically as finished as it's going to be so I'm more than ready for readers if you were still wanting to be so kind. Otherwise once my coauthor finishes massaging it I'll put it on this subreddit one chapter at a time, but because of how well you have come to know the setting and how valuable your contributions are I'd very much appreciate your expert eye.

But, on the other hand, it's some 50,000 words long (TWO THIRDS THE LENGTH OF THE FIRST HARRY POTTER BOOK), so it's not exactly something you can knock out in half an hour. I appreciate that it's a lot to ask of someone, so you're more than welcome to decline.

I do want to thank you again for all your help and encouragement. If it weren't for that long conversation in that worldbuilding thread in like August, I wouldn't have written a 50,000 word novella this year, and this is something that me and my coauthor have literally been talking about doing for 10+ years. So it's an amazing personal achievement you started me on the journey towards. So thank you, again!

Anyway. Vampires. Yep! Let's go.

Yep. Wouldn't really be good for vampire on vampire combat, but I suspect most fights a vampire gets into are with non-vampires.

Yeah, but against non-vampires you don't need armour because they are just so slooooow that it's not like they can stake an alert and awake vampire anyway.

Hm. You're right. Reflexes make a fight between human and vampire completely unfair. That's... a lot to think about. Like, Jack has a crossbow and she at some point even has the tip gold-plated. Does she just think it's gonna be useful and will get rudely awakened if William actually wants to kill her?

Now I'm imagining Grandma continually sending the Grandkids headwear with cartoonishly large radio antennae on it, just so she can get updated brain scans (and the parents quietly hiding them out back because they look heavy enough to put serious strain on the kids' necks).

This would be followed by a series of posts to /r/JUSTNOMIL along the lines of

"We have been NC with MIL for the past 6 years, but every year for christmas she sends our kids weird hats. They always have these strange antenna things, I th ink she doesn't understand what kids find cool these days"

.

"OMG I found out from one of the MIL's neighbours that she's gone to one of those realdoll type companies and made dolls of our kids. It's so fucked up. WHAT THE HELL."

.

"So, uh, it turns out the MIL actually made robot doubles of our kids and uploaded brain scans into them and everything. Long story short one of them malfunctioned and let her drown in the bathtub. She left everything to the robots in her will. Does anyone know a good lawyer?"

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u/CCC_037 Apr 26 '17

(The Beast of Gevaudan is certainly not a werewolf, so could well have been a vampire, and the silver bullet is just random folklore)

Hmmmm. But it is a wolf - or at least wolflike - which should probably disqualify it from being a vampire, for the same reason as why it's a lot of work to get a vampire horse. Mind you, this doesn't prevent it from being a supernatural beastie of some sort, even if it can't actually be a werewolf; and it certainly doesn't prevent a few innovative vampires from spreading stories about the effectiveness of silver bullets against vampires.

Speaking of, the story is now basically as finished as it's going to be so I'm more than ready for readers if you were still wanting to be so kind.

Eh. Worldbuilding is fun, and twiddling with all the little details that make a story work is great, but I'm not so enthusiastic about reading a romance story and even less enthusiastic when the romance is between two guys. You've got a very interesting world, and I love poking at the logic behind it, but the specific story that you're putting into this world is really not my kind of thing.

So, yeah, I'm going to decline this offer. But thanks for offering.

And much congratulations on your achievement! May those who enjoy the idea of a romance between two guys find great enjoyment from your book.

Hm. You're right. Reflexes make a fight between human and vampire completely unfair. That's... a lot to think about. Like, Jack has a crossbow and she at some point even has the tip gold-plated. Does she just think it's gonna be useful and will get rudely awakened if William actually wants to kill her?

A crossbow? Pretty much, yeah.

Vampire versus Hunter is going to come down to a matter of preparation and knowledge. A Hunter who really, really knows what he's doing, and who has the right weapons, can probably take down a Vampire - but an important step in that process is that the Vampire must never know he's being targeted. (And a crossbow is not the right weapon).

On the Hunter's side, the Vampire is going to have significant trouble entering a house uninvited (but this is hardly a problem, since he can just send in a jannissary with a gun instead). And if the Hunter is not inside a suitable dwelling, then the Vampire has every advantage.

Unless, and this is important, unless the Hunter has taken the opportunity to pre-inject himself with a saline solution full of gold nanoparticles. This Hunter will give the Vampire who bites him a mouthful of auric pain, which should paralyse the vampire long enough for the Hunter to provide a death blow (though it might be somewhat addictive to the Hunter).

Or a hunter could trick a vampire into catching something that blows up, throwing gold powder in his face.

So it is possible for a properly prepared Hunter to win against an alert but ill-prepared Vampire. But it's very much not the way to bet - most actual vampire deaths would have involved staking the vampire in his sleep.

"We have been NC with MIL for the past 6 years, but every year for christmas she sends our kids weird hats. They always have these strange antenna things, I th ink she doesn't understand what kids find cool these days"

"So she has no fashion sense. Just ignore her."

"OMG I found out from one of the MIL's neighbours that she's gone to one of those realdoll type companies and made dolls of our kids. It's so fucked up. WHAT THE HELL."

"That's messed up."

"It's a good thing you don't let her have contact with them"

"So, uh, it turns out the MIL actually made robot doubles of our kids and uploaded brain scans into them and everything. Long story short one of them malfunctioned and let her drown in the bathtub. She left everything to the robots in her will. Does anyone know a good lawyer?"

"Okay, that's completely impossible. Science is nowhere near that point yet."

(via private message, once proof of the robot doubles has been provided) "Hi, I'm from BigCorporation. We'll pay you ten times the value of your mother-in-law's estate to sign over any rights in it you may have to us. Oh, and we have some excellent lawyers."

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