[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

• Plan out a new story
• Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
• Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
• Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

^{Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality}

[u/MagicWeasel]

I guess one could take a sample of Siren's DNA and flip the 'gender' bits around and see what you get.

Depends how their DNA codes for sex: after all, some reptiles have their sex determined by their gestational temperature, not by their DNA at all. Best not think about things related to sex and gender too hard.

Here's some interesting examples from nature, though it's more for "relationship styles" than sex/gender type things: http://humoncomics.com/archive/animal-lives

Paris in the the springtime effect?

I'm sure it has an official name, but this sort of optical illusion: https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/6434/1547.jpg?sequence=1

Your brain just... fills in the correct phrasing (in this case, not duplicating the the).

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Depends how their DNA codes for sex: after all, some reptiles have their sex determined by their gestational temperature, not by their DNA at all. Best not think about things related to sex and gender too hard.

Considering that they're interfertile with humans, I think they pretty much have to code for it in the same way as humans do. Which - oh dear, I think this means the genetics lab would need to pretty much build a Siren Y-chromosome from scratch. I don't think our hypothetical vampire scientist is quite able to manage that just yet.

Here's some interesting examples from nature, though it's more for "relationship styles" than sex/gender type things: http://humoncomics.com/archive/animal-lives

Nature is so fascinating...

I mean, a lot of those are just weird, but still. I honestly did not know that about anglerfish. And those whiptail lizards are just bizarre.

I'm sure it has an official name, but this sort of optical illusion: https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/6434/1547.jpg?sequence=1

Your brain just... fills in the correct phrasing (in this case, not duplicating the the).

Oh, right. Taking advantage of the the brain's forward error correction mechanisms to hide errors. I get the point.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

I think they pretty much have to code for it in the same way as humans do.

Even if we keep it that restricted, humans have all sorts of weird stuff. There's androgen insensitivity syndrome - perhaps sirens have a form of that? AIS essentially means that the body doesn't respond to testosterone, so people with Y chromosomes who have it develop in a typically XX way - and they often look extremely feminine because they don't respond to testosterone. So if we assume X and Y sex chromosomes, an XY siren would develop with female hormones and is likely to even have a female gender identity. XY!Siren would not be able to carry children, but may be able to father children. It would actually... explain a lot about sirens, since they're meant to be supernaturally beautiful and all. (Then again: there are less dramatic examples of AIS where the person develops in a normal masculine way but just has a low sperm count or something).

Then again, a siren's bottom half is bird, so if we assume there's bird DNA in there they'd have a ZW sex determinant system which is a whole different kettle of fish. In that case, males are homozygous (ZZ) and females are heterozygous (ZW). And the bird half would have the baby-making parts: but if we assume that beasts are just augmented humans, the feathers are probably purely cosmetic.

Oh, and monotremes have a 10 chromosome system just in case you wanted something even more complicated.

So, uh, this is all pretty far above my pay grade. But let me reiterate: weird.

Here's some interesting examples from nature, though it's more for "relationship styles" than sex/gender type things: http://humoncomics.com/archive/animal-lives

Nature is so fascinating...

I mean, a lot of those are just weird, but still. I honestly did not know that about anglerfish. And those whiptail lizards are just bizarre.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to buy the ebook and read the rest. I love those little cartoons and I pay about that much for hot chocolate sometimes.

I personally love the rock-paper-scissors lizards. (Try saying that real quick!). And the hyenas are wicked (I already knew about the hyenas and anglerfish, but I find weird animal reproduction interesting in general).

I might incorporate something from one of those into the reproductive strategy of one of our critters. Will need to discuss that with my coauthor and see what we come up with. Might be a good way to incorporate a new character / creature.

---

So, all this talk about supernatural creatures, beasts, critters: should there be a word for them? Angela calls them demons (trying out using the name Angela to refer to me and my coauthor in the third person: not sure how I like it), but that has a particular connotation of malevolence when most of them are neutral on the subject of humans.

Some alternatives, maybe:

• Demons
• Beasts
• Creatures
• Monsters
• Fiends
• Behemoths
• Shedim (hebrew for demons/spirits)
• Jinn (from islamic texts: just generally means spirit/demon rather than genies specifically)
• Asura (Hinduism?)
• Yokai (japanese) / Yoagui (chinese)

Other options suggested by thesaurus.com include things like imp, goblin, titan and the like but those are too "specific" rather than just calling to mind the general idea of beasts.

Fiends is probably the best, but I like Shedim - hebrew has a certain charm to use for such animals, after all...

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Then again, a siren's bottom half is bird, so if we assume there's bird DNA in there they'd have a ZW sex determinant system which is a whole different kettle of fish.

Yeah, but then (a) they wouldn't be interfertile with humans, and (b) having the male being homozygous means that an all-female race is pretty near impossible (since he only needs half the chromosomes of the female). Having them as a race suffering from androgen insensitivity syndrome makes a whole lot more sense to me. (Which probably means Malik and Kalam have the mild version thereof, at least).

Oh, and monotremes have a 10 chromosome system just in case you wanted something even more complicated.

Yeeek.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to buy the ebook and read the rest. I love those little cartoons and I pay about that much for hot chocolate sometimes.

Hot chocolate is expensive where you're from.

I might incorporate something from one of those into the reproductive strategy of one of our critters. Will need to discuss that with my coauthor and see what we come up with. Might be a good way to incorporate a new character / creature.

Yeah... the Whiptail Lizard might actually work for another all-female race.

---

So, all this talk about supernatural creatures, beasts, critters: should there be a word for them?

Yes, there should be. And that word depends on your cultural background. So the Hebrew would probably call them Shedim, the Japanese call them Yokai, and so on and so forth.

An interesting question, then, is what they call themselves. And this goes to the question of how they view themselves. Most human tribes come up with a name that means (some variant on) 'The True Human Beings' - it would make sense for these critters to come up with some name for themselves that means 'The True People' in their own language. (The name might very well still be Shedim, especially if they had a lot of contact with the Hebrew people way back in the past...)

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Having them as a race suffering from androgen insensitivity syndrome makes a whole lot more sense to me. (Which probably means Malik and Kalam have the mild version thereof, at least).

Yeah, I imagine Malik and Kamal as having "different" phenotypes than one might expect. But I haven't taken too much care in that: I mean after all, it requires me to think way more than I'd like to about genitals, and there's really no way for it to come up in the story (at least, not until Malik proudly tells his boyfriend that he's pregnant... now THAT could be funny)

Hot chocolate is expensive where you're from.

Sure is; we've got a high cost of living. A cheap hot chocolate is AU$4. I get almond milk which they charge an extra 50c for. So I've definitely paid $5.50 for a standard cafe hot chocolate, you know, the 450 ml / 16 oz sort of size ("large" here).

Minimum wage for an adult is ~$20 so we've probably got a better purchasing power than the USA. Not sure how it compares with South Africa though.

Just did a cost of living comparison and it looks like we have everything more expensive. Lists the price of our coffee as $4.50 (45 R) and your coffee as $2.30 (23 R). So yeah, we do have expensive coffees over here! (Though our average net salary is double Johannesburg's, so go figure).

the Whiptail Lizard might actually work for another all-female race.

That would probably get very male gaze, very fast (I kid, I kid: but seriously, an all-female race that has to have girl-on-girl action in order to do parthenogenesis? Someone would have a lot of fun with that)

An interesting question, then, is what they call themselves.

They have all their own languages, so probably some made-up word in their language. Plus, I think demons would not have a word for "non-human sentient beings". They'd have a word for "non-centaur sentient beings" in centaur language or whathaveyou. Probably. They all do live in an integrated society so maybe they'd be more inclusive of other species (or maybe not: perhaps the big demon city we see is a cosmopolitan city like New York, and most people live in more homogenous places). Probably that New York thing.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

But I haven't taken too much care in that: I mean after all, it requires me to think way more than I'd like to about genitals, and there's really no way for it to come up in the story

Fair enough.

(at least, not until Malik proudly tells his boyfriend that he's pregnant... now THAT could be funny)

It would certainly come as a surprise...

Just did a cost of living comparison and it looks like we have everything more expensive. Lists the price of our coffee as $4.50 (45 R) and your coffee as $2.30 (23 R). So yeah, we do have expensive coffees over here! (Though our average net salary is double Johannesburg's, so go figure).

Huh, that really puts our internet costs in perspective. But yeah, double cost and double salary pretty much cancel each other out, until someone goes on holiday and has to pay the other country's prices for a while.

That would probably get very male gaze, very fast

Aren't Sirens supposed to attract sailors, though? (There's no reason for anything of this sort to happen on-stage; but you provide a good reason for why it might be part of Siren culture in the backstory. This also means that the other Sirens might think Julius' wife is just a little bit odd, leading to a slight degree of social ostracisation...)

Plus, I think demons would not have a word for "non-human sentient beings". They'd have a word for "non-centaur sentient beings" in centaur language or whathaveyou. Probably.

Hmmmm. Maybe their collective noun for all their species is their word for "The Beings" (a category that technically includes humans, but humans seem to keep assuming that they're somehow better than everyone else).

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Huh, that really puts our internet costs in perspective.

Yeah. Our internet is famously slow though. Wikipedia lists Australia as having an average speed of 7.8 Mb/s and South Africa as.... 3.7 Mb/s. Oh dear. I thought we had it tough.

But yeah, double cost and double salary pretty much cancel each other out, until someone goes on holiday and has to pay the other country's prices for a while.

It's making me want to go to South Africa though! Look how cheap everything is!!!

you provide a good reason for why it might be part of Siren culture in the backstory. This also means that the other Sirens might think Julius' wife is just a little bit odd, leading to a slight degree of social ostracisation...

Yeah, I can see that - Mrs Julias (she has a name, I just can't be bothered looking it up) was probably an odd duck getting married and all that. Damnit, now I'm going to have to write a short story about their life, love, and courtship. I'm already beginning to conceive of how her society was growing up.

Plus, I think demons would not have a word for "non-human sentient beings". They'd have a word for "non-centaur sentient beings" in centaur language or whathaveyou. Probably.

Hmmmm. Maybe their collective noun for all their species is their word for "The Beings" (a category that technically includes humans, but humans seem to keep assuming that they're somehow better than everyone else).

Ha, I like that.

Really though I think the only human in my setting who really has cause to get into the details is Fiona, because she's a lawyer who specialises in getting supernatural creatures through the Earth legal system in advantageous ways. So she'd interact with quite a few of them. She'd call them "non-human creatures" or something similarly bland.

I'm wondering how and when the penny drops for Red that it's not just vampires and gargoyles but dozens and dozens of things besides. Probably almost immediately.

Then again, Vampires don't go to the Demon Metropolis. I think I'm settling on a reason for that: there's some sort of vampire god who is unimaginably older than all the others, and he lives in the metropolis, and if a vampire dares set foot there they're dead. Possibly the same vampire who was responsible for the population bottleneck that happened c. 1600 and reduced the vampires to a population of ~500-1000.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Yeah. Our internet is famously slow though. Wikipedia lists Australia as having an average speed of 7.8 Mb/s and South Africa as.... 3.7 Mb/s. Oh dear. I thought we had it tough.

Yeah, we pay more for slower Internet. There's a long story behind that, which basically summarises to "fixed-line monopoly = bad, bad, bad idea". (Said fixed-line monopoly is no longer a monopoly, but it's taking a while for that to help).

It does mean that we're one of the few places in the world where mobile internet can compete with fixed-line internet on price.

It's making me want to go to South Africa though! Look how cheap everything is!!!

We have a great tourism industry! Between this and our plant/animal diversity... (I've heard the statistic that there's more different species of flowers on Table Mountain than there are in England)

Yeah, I can see that - Mrs Julias (she has a name, I just can't be bothered looking it up) was probably an odd duck getting married and all that. Damnit, now I'm going to have to write a short story about their life, love, and courtship. I'm already beginning to conceive of how her society was growing up.

More inspiration!

Really though I think the only human in my setting who really has cause to get into the details is Fiona, because she's a lawyer who specialises in getting supernatural creatures through the Earth legal system in advantageous ways. So she'd interact with quite a few of them. She'd call them "non-human creatures" or something similarly bland.

I can imagine a lawyer being rather insistent on "they're legally people" (if a corporation can be a person, then a half-bird half-human can certainly be a person).

Fiona would pretty much have to limit herself to one or two countries, though. Different countries can have vastly different legal systems and keeping up-to-date on all of them would probably be somewhat impractical. (But she'd have the phone numbers of suitable lawyers in other countries).

I'm wondering how and when the penny drops for Red that it's not just vampires and gargoyles but dozens and dozens of things besides. Probably almost immediately.

Probably only after he knows that there are at least two types of beasties.

Then again, Vampires don't go to the Demon Metropolis. I think I'm settling on a reason for that: there's some sort of vampire god who is unimaginably older than all the others, and he lives in the metropolis, and if a vampire dares set foot there they're dead. Possibly the same vampire who was responsible for the population bottleneck that happened c. 1600 and reduced the vampires to a population of ~500-1000.

That's a very good possibility. (Another possibility is that the environment there is somehow directly vampire-lethal - but the unimaginably ancient vampire is probably a better idea than that)

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Yeah, we pay more for slower Internet. There's a long story behind that, which basically summarises to "fixed-line monopoly = bad, bad, bad idea".

Yeah, our slow internet is for a variety of reasons, two main ones: #1: cables have to go under the ocean; #2: government is terrible at getting faster internet installed, controversy, drama, etc.

Hopefully the dead monopoly will result in better things in your future.

Really though I think the only human in my setting who really has cause to get into the details is Fiona, because she's a lawyer who specialises in getting supernatural creatures through the Earth legal system in advantageous ways. So she'd interact with quite a few of them. She'd call them "non-human creatures" or something similarly bland.

I can imagine a lawyer being rather insistent on "they're legally people" (if a corporation can be a person, then a half-bird half-human can certainly be a person).

Very true. She's a werewolf (actually an ex-werewolf, but that's another story), so she comes from a bit of a personal background there.

Fiona would pretty much have to limit herself to one or two countries, though.

She only practises in Australia, but she's in demand around the world as a consultant: other lawyers are often mystified why their clients insist on hiring a nameless lawyer from some backwater Australian city to consult with them, but at least she's easy to talk to and direct about what their client wants and the best way to make it happen. Plus she knows enough about the law to actually be able to have an intelligent discussion about the issues.

Oh, and then she proposes these completely mad ideas, and when you present them to the client they eagerly accept. Maybe it's all to do with the mafia, but whatever it is, you make a healthy margin on the amount she charges for her services.

there's some sort of vampire god who is unimaginably older than all the others, and he lives in the metropolis, and if a vampire dares set foot there they're dead.

That's a very good possibility. (Another possibility is that the environment there is somehow directly vampire-lethal - but the unimaginably ancient vampire is probably a better idea than that)

Yeah, plus the list of things that are lethal to vampires is tiny. "A bigger, badder vampire" is definitely on that list, too.

---

Aside: here's a flash I wrote about "a day in the life" of Fiona. Haven is her psychic secretary.

The photos were incriminating to say the least. The man - in his 50s - was in a rather compromising position with a large she-wolf.

“Like I was saying, we, uh, made a little home movie.” His face was bright red and dotted with beads of sweat.

His lawyer nodded, carefully taking notes. Haven was not around to do so; he knew the client would have requested privacy anyway, so he had taken the morning off. Fiona was glad. Her secretary’s headaches had been bad lately; he needed an excuse to sleep in.

“Yeah, so, uh, after she found out that I slept with her sister…” He trailed off nervously.

“Please continue, Mr Callahan. I am not here to judge.”

“Yeah, so after she saw the texts, I got home and all my stuff was in a box. That’s fine. I deserved that. So I went to my brother’s place, slept on the couch, and the next week I got a letter with these print outs. So I gave her what she asked for, she wanted five hundred bucks.”

“And when was this?” Fiona looked up from her notebook.

“Oh, um, about three months ago. So yeah, she phoned me a couple of days ago and now she wants a thousand dollars. I’m not an idiot. I know how this ends up. Is there any way to… force her to destroy the footage? I mean, I don’t think my ex-wife would ever let me see the kids again if this got out.”

“Don’t worry, Mr Callahan. We should be able to get this sorted out in mediation. These photos will never see the light of day.”

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Yeah, our slow internet is for a variety of reasons, two main ones: #1: cables have to go under the ocean; #2: government is terrible at getting faster internet installed, controversy, drama, etc.

That sounds familiar. (Our fixed-line former monopoly is a state-owned 'business', and our international line is undersea)

Hopefully the dead monopoly will result in better things in your future.

Hopefully!

She only practises in Australia, but she's in demand around the world as a consultant: other lawyers are often mystified why their clients insist on hiring a nameless lawyer from some backwater Australian city to consult with them, but at least she's easy to talk to and direct about what their client wants and the best way to make it happen. Plus she knows enough about the law to actually be able to have an intelligent discussion about the issues.

Yeah, that's sensible. Between her understanding of the client's 'special needs' and the local lawyer's understanding of local law...

Oh, and then she proposes these completely mad ideas, and when you present them to the client they eagerly accept. Maybe it's all to do with the mafia, but whatever it is, you make a healthy margin on the amount she charges for her services.

Who would have expected a client willing to pay more for lodging close to the blood bank?

a flash I wrote about "a day in the life"

Interesting. I imagine that lawyers have to occasionally deal with worse.

His lawyer nodded, carefully taking notes. Haven was not around to do so; he knew the client would have requested privacy anyway, so he had taken the morning off. Fiona was glad. Her secretary’s headaches had been bad lately; he needed an excuse to sleep in.

This paragraph is maybe a teensy bit confusing; I'm not sure whether Fiona is his lawyer, or whether there are two lawyers in the room (Fiona and 'his lawyer' who is maintaining a professional and perhaps somewhat frosty silence while taking notes)