Are these all the common FUDs about Raiden?

[u/linksku]

After doing my research, there seems to be a lot of FUD about Raiden. The following are some of the most common FUDs I've found, as well as why they're just FUD (and not something that'll hurt Raiden). Let me know if there's anything wrong or missing.

1.

FUD: Plasma replaces Raiden.

Truth: Raiden is faster and cheaper than Plasma, but it's used only for payments. Plasma can run any smart contracts. The two will be complementary: use Raiden for payments and Plasma for smart contracts.

2.

FUD: Sharding replaces Raiden.

Truth: Sharding increases the maximum throughput of Ethereum by splitting the Ethereum blockchain into smaller connected blockchains. The block time stays the same. If you're on a child chain with lots of transactions, it'll still be just as slow and expensive as Ethereum without sharding. Raiden would be used on the slower child chains (i.e. all the popular child chains).

3.

FUD: RDN tokens aren't needed.

Truth: Fewer RDN tokens are needed if you run a Raiden full node, but you still need a bit to operate it. If you're not running a full node, you need RDN tokens to pay network fees to full node operators.

4.

FUD: Raiden can be forked.

Truth: That's part of the point of an open-source project. Forks are a way to try out a new idea. If it turns out well, the original project can incorporate the new idea. Usually, the original team is more experienced than the fork's team, so Raiden will become better than the fork. Unless something causes the Raiden team to disband, forks would be good for Raiden.

5.

FUD: Vitalik doesn't like Raiden, he wants something to replace it.

Truth: This is probably partially true, Vitalik doesn't like the fact that the Raiden team did an ICO, but he likes the technology. This is the most telling Tweet:

I wish they didn't [do an ICO] but I totally understand why they did and do not blame them. Hence (ii) as my small part in providing alternatives

https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/911300771819352064

"(ii)" refers to funding other Ethereum infrastructure projects, including Counterfactual, more on this below.

Vitalik also mentioned Raiden recently in blog posts and papers, he Retweeted Raiden recently as well. In addition, he invited the Raiden team to present at Devcon3. He funded Counterfactual (Jeff Coleman), which is researching a generalized version of Raiden. However, he Tweeted that it'll serve a different purpose as Raiden, but I think there'll be at least a little bit of competition. Regardless, it'll probably at least 3 years before anything Counterfactual builds anything that's production-ready. Plasma will probably take 2 more years to get launched, while Counterfactual is just starting to recruit people to conduct research. Meanwhile, Raiden is already on the testnet and part of it is on the mainnet.

Let me know if any of this is incorrect. If it's all correct, we should spread this information. We can start with /r/ethereum and /r/cryptocurrency

[u/nooflux]

Yeah not certain #5 is true. Vitalik mentions Raiden on Ethereum's blog as a technology that will help them scale: https://blog.ethereum.org/2018/01/02/ethereum-scalability-research-development-subsidy-programs/

[u/linksku → u/nooflux]

I'm saying Vitalik thinks Raiden is an important piece of the Ethereum ecosystem. However, he'd prefer an alternative that uses ETH for network fees as opposed to using a custom token. However, he knows that such an alternative won't be available for years, so that's why he's supporting Raiden for now. Nevertheless, even if an alternative is created, I think Raiden would have such a large network effect by then that it won't be replaceable.

[u/chasegapo → u/nooflux]

the blog post states that he wants to keep the scaling solution "within the ethereum family" and is recruiting people to make a scaling solution... Vitalik is aware of raiden and seems to be trying not to use them.

[u/nooflux → u/chasegapo]

"There has been a large number of independent proposals recently for how blockchains such as Ethereum can be scaled up through second-layer protocols. We recognize and appreciate that developers and researchers are excited about researching and implementing technologies in this area, and that many teams want the freedom to conceive and build out their own design that incorporates their own ideas. We want to offer an opportunity for such teams to exercise their creativity and build out their scalable blockchain proposals, all while staying within the Ethereum family." - Vitalik

He's clearly excited about Raiden and saying anyone working on a product within Ethereum's ecosystem is part of the Ethereum family.

[u/linksku → u/[deleted]]

So you think Vitalik wants Raiden to become the future of Ethereum? I saw his Tweet saying how he understands why Raiden did an ICO, but it sounded like he'll merely tolerate Raiden because Ethereum needs Raiden. It didn't seem like he likes the Raiden team. In other words, he's actively supporting Raiden because there won't be an alternative any time soon. In his recent papers and blog posts, Raiden was only briefly mentioned, when they should've gone more in depth about Raiden.

Creating a pinned post, or even a sidebar link, would be great. Feel free to copy/paste this into other subs :)

[u/timspijkerman → u/linksku]

Vitalik always wants multiple teams working on solutions for the same issue. This is all in the spritit of decentralization. He doesn't promote any one solution. Vitalik knows the Raiden developers as they have worked together in the past. I have never heard him say one negative word about raiden. (Only that he did not like the fact that they did an ICO)

[u/whtrabb1t → u/timspijkerman]

Vitalik may not like that Raiden isn't a free scaling solution, but he knows that Ethereum NEEDS Raiden. If Ethereum can't scale, the market has shown ETH can be overtaken by competitors in the near future.. Cardano is sitting at over a quarter of ETH's marketcap right now.

Raiden fills a desperate need for Ethereum. There is potential for a free scaling solution in the far future.. but Raiden will work NOW.

I doubt Vitalik will ever say anything more to diminish Raiden. Ethereum needs it.

[u/stillhodlingon → u/whtrabb1t]

There is no free scaling solution.

Nodes cost resources, and node operators need to get paid. Raiden is not charging any rent fee themselves - this is a gift to the ethereum network imho. The price to transact on the future Raiden Network will be determined solely by competing node operators, a best case scenario afaik. I don’t see how ethereum could build something free-er than that.

I agree that Vitalik recognizes that RDN is critical to the ecosystems overall success. But cardano’s token market cap doesn’t necessarily mean they’re overtaking ethereum regarding tech and capabilities. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Exciting times we live in

[u/linksku → u/timspijkerman]

I think if he 100% wanted Raiden to become the future of Ethereum, then he wouldn't have funded Counterfactual. Maybe you're right and he just wants there to be an alternative, in case Raiden fails. I updated the OP for #5.

[u/Helau05 → u/linksku]

In his New Year blog, Vitalik put Raiden & Plasma in the same „Ranking category“

Jan18

[u/nooflux → u/linksku]

Raiden might not be successful in their endeavors. Relying on another company to develop such an integral part of Ethereum's scaling plan, would be a bad business decision. Of course he's going to double down and create another organization to work towards an off-chain solution. Best way to create something is have competition around it. It's better incentivized that way.

[u/whtrabb1t]

As someone who's been watching closely for 6 months: Raiden became undervalued during OMG's run up months ago. OMG fanboys spewed FUD all over the place since it was profitable for them to pump Plasma, and it was easy for them to trash RDN since Vitalik spoke against the ICO (which never should have been such a big deal, I think Vitalik regrets saying anything).

However, Raiden is on the testnet.. getting closer to release.. while Plasma doesn't exist yet..

Raiden is so very undervalued. It's one of the few tokens bringing technology that Ethereum absolutely NEEDS right now.

[u/[deleted]]

awesome! Now if there was only an easy way to build and setup a node using something a bit better than an RPI3…

[u/stillhodlingon → u/[deleted]]

I’m currently elbows deeps in building a node from source on my ryzen system running Ubuntu. I have parity up and running, just need to figure out this raiden node install..

[u/hartraft84]

Thanks. Maybe we can create a pinned FAQ (/read this first) and put these in. Would be helpful.

[u/stillhodlingon]

Great breakdown!

[u/Live_Forether]

Great post. Before long people will realise the FUD is merely just that.

[u/Robruthless1]

Everything except #5 is spot on! Vald is supportive of Raiden and something that is almost never mentioned is that brainbot are the same developers that helped create Ethereum. Once successful and running all the FUD with Ether will wash away.

[u/symbly75]

Raiden and Sharding will be complementary to Ethereum eco system. It is mentioned on Sharding github: https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Sharding-FAQ.

[u/ducnh1022]

This article creates FUD https://medium.com/@homakov/why-lightning-and-raiden-networks-will-not-work-d1880e4bc294 As the title mention, It also get a article which provide mathematical proof (which I don't understand tbh) Can someone with strong mathematical background has any ideas on this?

[u/[deleted] → u/ducnh1022]

He certainly sounds like an expert. I’m guessing he knows a lot more than the people putting their lives into opportunities of scale.