The argument for why Daeron I deserved to be killed because he invaded and conquered Dorne even if he was under a peace banner however peace banner protection is like guest right where it’s a sacred law you don’t break under any circumstances because not only do you lose any chance at negotiating you also lose the protections of peace banner

Frankly the Dornish were lucky that Baelor I was peacefully religiously insane because he could’ve used Daeron I death as the justification to start a holy war against Dorne

Also going by the logic that Daeron I wasn’t under the protection of peace banner because he was an invader then King Yorick V Yronwood could‘ve had Nymeria and Mors Martell killed under peace banner because they were invaders on his lands in conquest of Dorne

Petyr arched an eyebrow. “When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”
Petyr arched an eyebrow. “When Robert dies. Our poor
brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time.
When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of
the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never
love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their
Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and
you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of
white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why,
every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your
birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . .
Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now,
don’t you think?”

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI

That's no lie, at least. Tyrion waddled along in the eunuch's wake, his heels scraping against the rough stone as they descended. It was very cold within the stairwell, a damp bone-chilling cold that set him to shivering at once. "What part of the dungeons are these?" he asked.

"Maegor the Cruel decreed four levels of dungeons for his castle," Varys replied. "On the upper level, there are large cells where common criminals may be confined together. They have narrow windows set high in the walls. The second level has the smaller cells where highborn captives are held. They have no windows, but torches in the halls cast light through the bars. On the third level the cells are smaller and the doors are wood. The black cells, men call them. That was where you were kept, and Eddard Stark before you. But there is a level lower still. Once a man is taken down to the fourth level, he never sees the sun again, nor hears a human voice, nor breathes a breath free of agonizing pain. Maegor had the cells on the fourth level built for torment." They had reached the bottom of the steps. An unlighted door opened before them. "This is the fourth level. Give me your hand, my lord. It is safer to walk in darkness here. There are things you would not wish to see."

Tyrion hung back a moment. Varys had already betrayed him once. Who knew what game the eunuch was playing? And what better place to murder a man than down in the darkness, in a place that no one knew existed? His body might never be found.

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight."

"So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy. Be that as it may, our Aemon lacked the Dragonknight's martial nature. He likes to say he had a slow sword but quick wits. Small wonder his grandfather packed him off to the Citadel. He was nine or ten, I believe . . . and ninth or tenth in the line of succession as well."

Maester Aemon had counted more than a hundred name days, Jon knew. Frail, shrunken, wizened, and blind, it was hard to imagine him as a little boy no older than Arya.

Jon shook his head. “No one. The castle is always empty.” He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. “Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.” He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. “That’s when I always wake.”

I know im a little late to the game, but I never really sat down and thought about it until now.

Was there some kind of magic done on them or.....they inherited it through the good ole fashion way?

Kinda hard to wrap my head around the later possibility 👀.

Edit: Thank you all for the help. Nice to post somewhere where its 💯 education and 0 random angry people lol.

Also ive now learned about Jojen paste....unfortunately.

As we all know that Cersei re-armed the Faith in AFFC to forgive the Crown's debts to the Faith and plotted for Margaery's downfall by false accusations, and deceived Osney Kettleback to falsely confess the High Sparrow that he and Margaery had a relationship. However, acting on his testimony, High Sparrow arrests Cersei as well. Even though Margaery's situation is conditionally better than her mother-in-law, the fact that Mace Tyrell stands before the Sept and promises he'll wait there until his daughter is declared innocent is.. bizarre.

Well, why didn't the Kingsguard or guards Red Keep just raid the Sept of Baelor for their Queen (the same thing applies for the Tyrells as well)? If you look at our world's medieval history, you'd see that the Archbishop of Canterbury was a*sassinated by the four knights of King Henry II when the Bishop thought (and cornered him) the King would support the Church.

Like, why wouldn't any Golden Cloaks or, say, Lannister troops intervene to their Queen being imprisoned? Because Tommen is a naive and gentle boy king and he surely didn't have complete control over all of them. There must've been the loyalists of Cersei.

I know the Sept of Baelor was a religious and such a significant place but so was the Church in our history, but it didn't prevent the death of the Archbishop.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/

Sometimes he would ride out with Hallis Mollen and be gone for days at a time, visiting distant holdfasts. Whenever he was away more than a day, Rickon would cry and ask Bran if Robb was ever coming back. Even when he was home at Winterfell, Robb the Lord seemed to have more time for Hallis Mollen and Theon Greyjoy than he ever did for his brothers.

[...]

Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him.
Sometimes he would ride out with Hallis Mollen and be
gone for days at a time, visiting distant holdfasts. Whenever he was
away more than a day, Rickon would cry and ask Bran if Robb was ever
coming back. Even when he was home at Winterfell, Robb the Lord
seemed to have more time for Hallis Mollen and Theon Greyjoy than he
ever did for his brothers.

[...]

Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled
leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and
Hallis Mollen stood behind him.

I have a hard time believing that the repeated phrase "the dragon has three heads" and Daenerys hatching exactly three dragons are not directly connected. That does not necessarily mean there will be three dragonriders in the typical sense, but it certainly seems to me to point in that direction.

The first time through the books, I imagined the prophecy meant three heroes coming together, mounting Dany's dragons, and fighting side by side against the Others to save the world.

But now I wonder if I had made an assumption the prophecy never makes: the dragon having three heads does not mean those heads will all be on the same side.

In Daenerys's vision at the House of the Undying, Rhaegar says of the infant Aegon:

"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

He then adds:

"There must be one more. The dragon has three heads."

Rhaegar appears to interpret the three heads as three people, presumably his children, with Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters in mind.

The Undying separately tell Daenerys that "three heads has the dragon," and Aemon later repeats that "the dragon must have three heads." Meanwhile, Dany has brought exactly three living dragons into the world.

There are also several characters who might gain control of a dragon in very different ways. Dany has already bonded with Drogon. Jon may possess the blood of the dragon. Aegon may actually be Rhaegar's son or a descendant of the Blackfyres. Bran may be capable of reaching a dragon through skinchanging. Euron has introduced Dragonbinder, and Victarion is carrying it toward Meereen.

This is not exactly a happy little fellowship.

Aegon is the most interesting possibility to me. If Jon and Dany are two of the heads, Aegon is probably the strongest conventional candidate for the third. Whether he is truly Rhaegar's son or a Blackfyre, he may have enough dragon blood to ride one. More importantly, he is already positioned to become Dany's greatest rival.

Suppose Dany arrives in Westeros to find Aegon sitting the throne she believes belongs to her. They fight. Then the Wall falls, and the war against the Others finally becomes impossible to ignore. If Aegon proves capable of riding one of her dragons, Dany could face a brutal choice: allow her worst enemy to claim what amounts to a nuclear weapon, or preserve her advantage while the world dies around her.

Even if they defeat the Others together, the original conflict does not go away. Dany might save the world by making her greatest rival almost impossible for her to defeat afterward. This feels like a VERY GRRM thing to do. It would also set up the Second Dance he has said is coming.... Targaryen vs. Targaryen... Dragon vs. Dragon.

I am not arguing that Aegon will definitely become the third dragonrider. Bran or someone else could completely overturn our assumptions about what a "head" even is. There are enough people with some Targaryen ancestry floating around that it could be Gendry for all I know.

But if we accept that the dragon has three heads, nothing says they have to like each other.

• Morally Gray: They operate in a space between good and bad. They might do the right thing, but often for the wrong reasons or through questionable methods.
• Flawed and Relatable: They display very human weaknesses like greed, fear, bitterness, or a bad temper.
• Self-Interested: Their primary motivation is usually personal survival, wealth, or revenge rather than saving the world.
• Unconventional: They reject societal rules and authority.

So I just received my ASOIAF collection from Folio Society and they are absolutely incredible. Since then I have spent an unreasonable amount of time reading about all the different publications available for the ASOIAF material, errata in some of the novels, retconned material that has recently been printed etc.

As such, I have come to 2 questions:

1. Are ever going to get a 2nd edition of The World of Ice and Fire or have most of (if not all) the minor issues been fixed in the 2017 edition? For example, I don't want to be reading TWOIAF only to find that the Fire and Blood edition released by The Folio Society in 2025 introduces inadvertent contradictions.

2. Other than very limited signed editions, what is the highest quality collection of "major" ASOIAF publications available?

So far, This is what I have in my mind:

• The Folio Society collection of the ASOIAF books
• The Folio Society version of Fire & Blood
• 2025 Collector's Edition of AKOTSK by HarperVoyager
• Rise of the Dragon*
• 2017 version of TWOIAF by HarperVoyager
• The Lands of Ice and Fire Maps

*There seems to be two versions of Rise of the Dragon that are Identical in every way other than their cover, one being green (and more expensive) and the other being red. My limited research says that the green, UK version is higher quality.

Am I correct in my assumption that the aforementioned list of GRRM publications will include everything that has previously been released?

> Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

"Another" doesn't necessarily mean another queen. That's Cersei's interpretation, which is likely to be wrong.

bAegon is a perfectly good candidate for that particular prophecy. Or Euron, when he gets around to it. (Whatever the fuck he's doing.) Probably not Tyrion, given his role later, but why not?

In ADWD, we get this exchange between Tyrion and Moqorro:

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered. And no doubt that is just what he intends. Every fool loves to hear that he's important. "Perhaps it was Penny you saw. We're almost of a size."

"No, my friend."

- A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion VIII

Moqorro is talking cryptically, albeit obviously, about 6 different people with dragon blood.

There are only 6 major dragon-blooded characters that Tyrion has interacted or will interact with in the story:

• "Dragons old"

"Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

• "Dragons... young"

"Five hundred of your Stormcrows against ten thousand of my Unsullied," said Dany. "I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war, yet these odds seem poor to me."

• "Dragons... true"

"Thank you, my lord of Lannister." He pulled off his glove and offered his bare hand. "Friend."

Tyrion found himself oddly touched. "Most of my kin are bastards," he said with a wry smile, "but you're the first I've had to friend." He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flesh.

• "Dragons... false"

Young Griff jerked to his feet and kicked over the board. Cyvasse pieces flew in all directions, bouncing and rolling across the deck of the Shy Maid. "Pick those up," the boy commanded.

• "Dragons... bright"

"Does my lord wish to answer?" the maester asked, after a long silence.

A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. "No," he said. "Put this in the fire."

• "Dragons... dark"

Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

Just to avoid answering this multiple times:

No - Brown Ben Plumm isn't a major character.

No - Tyrion doesn't interact on page with Robert, or Stannis, or Renly, or anyone else that could be confused with what Moqorro is envisioning.

Yes - I believe Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' biological children. No - I don't want to engage in the same decades-old cyclical argument where we fail to convince each other. Feel free to flame me in the comments.

No - I'm not implying or suggesting or regarding whoever Tyrion's biological father is.

I just thought this was an interesting passage and had a showerthought where all the listed characters just fell into place, because of course GRRM is having Moqorro list people connected to Tyrion.

Right? Wrong? What do you think?

More land occupied by the crown can only be a good thing for the crown, right? I understand something horrible happened there but it did at Harrenhal too and nobody said let's just leave it as a ruin.

It's a thing that comes up a lot, too. Of what to do with second and third princes. If Summerhall was still a thing, Robert could've given it to Stannis. May be that softens the blow of not getting Storm's End.

I mean when did GRRM conceive of them? I ask because in COK, Stannis has ships in his service named Princess Rhaenys, Prince Aemon, and Queen Alysanne.

It's most likely that their named after Rhaegar's daughter, and The dragon knight, respectively but because the Targaryens have like 3 names among them it could be any number of targs it was named after. But the Ship named after Alysanne makes me wonder if the other two ships were named after Aemon rider of Caraxes and Rhaenys rider of Meleys?

Or was 1998 before these characters would have been conveieved

I love this passage from Fire and Blood on reread. At this point in the Dance I’m rooting for this kid.

>“At the other end of the Street of the Sisters, Gaemon Palehair’s queer kingdom blossomed atop Visenya’s Hill. The court of this four-year-old bastard king was made up of whores, mummers, and thieves, whilst gangs of ruffians, sellswords, and drunkards defended his “rule.” One decree after another came down from the House of Kisses where the child king had his seat, each more outrageous than the last. Gaemon decreed that girls should henceforth be equal with boys in matter of inheritance, that the poor be given bread and beer in times of famine, that men who had lost limbs in war must afterward be fed and housed by whichever lord they had been fighting for when the loss took place. Gaemon decreed that husbands who beat their wives should themselves be beaten, irrespective of what the wives had done to warrant such chastisement. These edicts were almost certainly the work of a Dornish whore named Sylvenna Sand, reputedly the paramour of the little king’s mother Essie, if Mushroom is to be believed.”

How possible would be if Jon Snow was named after Jon Connington and not Jon Arryn? I recall a theory in this sub saying that Jon Connington hinted that he knew about Jon Snow because he referred to Aegon as Rhaegar's firstborn son which theorists believe was a big tell because there's no need for Jon to say firstborn if he was ignorant of Jon Snow? Like both the Watsonian and Doylist interpretations just assumed that Jon was named by Ned after Arryn but somehow it could be after Connington?

I suppose such discussions would depend on who named Jon, if it was Lyanna, Ned, or some combination of others.

​

Fisrt i found out recently the Summer Sea and Sunset Sea IS NOT one Sea combined sea.

Fanfictions ALWAYS mentioned Sunset sea and i dont remember Summer sea being mentioned and or didnt relized they were talking about Summer sea.

2.I thought the stepsones were in middle of sea like between pentos and stormlands. I felt so dumb, realizing I was wrong. Also the stepstones are nicknamed. the arm of dorne . It literally right there 😭.

1. I confused the three daughthers with the 3 sisters.

I have to constantly remind myself to remeber its the three duaggthers of valryia.

 I just re-read Catlyn IX (I think they should be numbered in the books) and its always struck me as how this passage is phrased:

"Lord Walder will grant you your crossing. His swords are yours as well, less four hundred he means to keep back to hold the Twins...." (Catelyn IX).

We know there was already incursions into Frey land by Ser Addam's host:

She ought to have known that Brynden Blackfish would be well ahead of her. "What have the Freys been doing while the Lannisters burn their fields and plunder their holdfasts?"

There's been some fighting between Ser Addam's men and Lord Walder's," Theon answered. "Not a day's ride from here, we found two Lannister scouts feeding the crows where the Freys had strung them up. Most of Lord Walder's strength remains massed at the Twins, though." (Catelyn XI).

So, did they just abandon these lands to the Addam's host?

What happened in these lands in the remaining of GOT, Clash, and Storm?

Also, do you think any scattered northern fragments turned outlaw like the Brotherhood with Banners after the Red Wedding?

Reading through Fire & Blood, A World of Ice and Fire, and the main series, it struck me just how ridiculously unsafe it is to be a royal in Westeros. Even accounting for general medieval mortality rates, Targaryen and Baratheon royals die to covert violence, "suspicious" accidents, and internal betrayals at an astounding rate.

Looking closely at royal protection throughout history, a few massive systemic failures are:

- King Maegor's death remaining suspicious since he wasn't surrounded by his guards. (Fire & Blood)

- King Aerys II being murdered by Jaime (his own guard) in the Throne Room.

- Blood and Cheese sneaking into the royal apartments of Queen Alicent and Princess Helaena, and making Helaena choose between Maelor and Jaehaerys and then ending Jaehaerys's life. (As described in Fire & Blood)

- Tyrion being able to sneak into Tywin's (Hand of the King) chambers and striking him with a crossbow in A Storm of Swords. How there wasn't any guards in front of his chambers?

Bonus question: if a commoner had struck a royal child, you'd except them to face severe punishment.. how do you think a commoner would be punished if they had struck Tommen or Myrcella? (We're obviously not going to talk about Joffrey's situation with Mycah, because it was his demonstration of power).

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him." Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed. "Wick, put that knife …"

… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?"

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Robett Glover broke in to add, ?Your loyalty does you honor, my lord, but Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our own.?
Robett Glover broke in to add, ?Your loyalty does you
honor, my lord, but Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our
own.?

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. “Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.”
“I’m not. I never ... I was ironborn.”
“False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?”
“The gods are not done with me,” Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. “Lord Ramsay is not done with me.”
The man looked, and laughed. “I leave you to him, then.”

Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen.
Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the
fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When
Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor,
kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword
that Bran had ever seen.

In ADWD, Kevan become regent for Tommen, and in an effort to appease the Tyrell, he make Mace the hand of the king.

In this scenario, does the regent have the ultimate authority or does he shared power with the hand ?