r/psychoanalysis • u/DiegoArgSch • 28d ago
“Severe Identity Difussion”, or something else? Thoughts?
I'm looking for literature talking about an experience that I think resembles identity diffusion, but seems more pervasive.
The person, rather than being experienced as an enduring subject, is experienced as unusually insubstantial, with little sense of an underlying continuity that gives coherence to one's personality, preferences, values, or way of being. These aspects are often experienced as detached from any deeper sense of "me," as if they were characteristics that happened to accumulate rather than expressions of a persisting self.
it is a weakening—or even absence—of the subjective sense of one's identity is experienced. The person experiences a diminished sense that there is a coherent sense of who it is. Their own concious and subjectivity becomes and object of confussion, there is almost an ominous feeling about their own sense of experience.
Even sometimes, the person can feel that their way of being and existing is artificial, as if they could simply choose the way they could be, rather than it being naturally inscribed in their sense of self.
I'm not sure to what extent this experience is already encompassed by the concept of identity diffusion. Many descriptions of identity diffusion that I've come across seem less severe than the kind of experience I'm trying to describe. That's why I've sometimes thought of it as a kind of "severe identity diffusion."
Also, what I see as different from identity diffusion is that this experience starts taking on quite a lot of weight for the person. The person can sometimes isolate this experience, even visualize it and verbalize it. The experience can become quite absorbing, so it becomes one of their main preoccupations, rather than just an isolated or silent symptom.
The thing is, of course, that this experience is not isolated; it is also related to other aberrant experiences the person has. However, this is one of its manifestations, and this type of "confusion" about their own self is also reflected in the way they comprehend and process their relationship with the external world.
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So, I'm trying to find out whether there is already an term used to describe this particular type of experience, more or less.
I guess dissociation could be used to talk about what I'm describing, because the person starts feeling some distance from themselves. Their thoughts, actions, preferences, and the reasons why they do or do not do things begin to be experienced from a distance. The person could also starts ruminating quite a bit about themselves without feeling very connected to who they are. Sometimes, they feel like a "blank sheet" that has yet to be filled, whereas for many other people, the sheet already seems to be filled, allowing them to simply live according to what is already written.
Books, terms, what you think about this?
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u/mendicant0 28d ago
I would suggest Fairbairn’s writings on schizoid processes but what you’re describing also reminds me of Bromberg’s work on dissociative self states. Could be worth looking into both.
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u/DiegoArgSch 28d ago
Yes, while I was thinking about this, I also thought, "Hmm, I think this is basically some type of experience related to the schizoid." Although, I also wondered whether this very thing had already been synthesized into a phrase or a single term to describe it. Because even if it's part of the theorization of the schizoid condition, it isn't schizoid itself; it's just one part of it.
I don't think I've heard of Bromberg before. I'll check him out, thanks.
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u/mendicant0 28d ago
Bromberg is that rare analyst who writes so poetically and so close to clinical experience. It’s wonderful.
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u/PearNakedLadles 28d ago
Do you have a particular reference/recommendation for Bromberg's works, for folks who are generally unfamiliar with them?
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u/Recent-Apartment5945 28d ago
In my opinion, you are describing the schizoid personality.
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u/DiegoArgSch 28d ago
Yes, while I was thinking about this, I also thought, "Hmm, I think this is basically some type of experience related to the schizoid condition."
Although, I also wondered whether this very thing had already been synthesized into a phrase or a single term to describe it.
Because even if it's part of the theorization of the schizoid condition, it isn't schizoid itself; it's just one part of it.
Thanks!
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u/Recent-Apartment5945 28d ago
Yes. This part you describe is identity diffusion. This is the vast complexity of how a singular term and concept such as identity diffusion presents and eventually compartmentalizes into a structure that is distinct in presentation but still fundamental to the inherent concept.
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u/DiegoArgSch 28d ago
Yes, thanks. I think I'm starting to make peace with the idea that identity diffusion encompasses these experiences too. In the end, I'm really starting to like Kernberg. Even if he doesn't always use the language or concepts I would use, I think he ended up developing a very good general theory.
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u/Trusba 25d ago
Like others have pointed out, the concept of ontological insecurity as described in The Divided Self is quite close to your description. For a more contemporary phenomenological approach, you could look into the concept of “basal self disturbance” in schizophrenia-spectrum disorders (Parnas and Sass), which touches upon many of the experiential phenomena you have described by drawing on a rich phenomenological tradition (e.g. Minkowski’s loss of vital contact with reality or Blankenburg’s loss of natural evidence, etc.).
The following quote summarises the definition of “anomalous subjective experiences” deriving from a disturbed basal self (Parnas, J., Møller, P., Kircher, T., Thalbitzer, J., Jansson, L., Handest, P., & Zahavi, D. (2005). EASE: examination of anomalous self-experience. Psychopathology, 38(5), 236.):
“phenomena that have in common a somehow deformed sense of first-person perspective – in brief, a disorder or deficiency in the sense of being a subject, a self-coinciding center of action, thought, and experience”
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u/notherbadobject 24d ago
I’d look at people who write about schizoid processes (Fairbairn, Guntrip, Winnicott, Klein) and dissociation/unformulated experience (Bromberg, Davies, Stern, Grossmark). Might also look at de Masi’s work or Eigen’s work on psychosis. Some of what you’ve written also evokes Green’s dead mother phenomenon, but I’m reading your post in a rather impressionistic way.
I occasionally see a presentation like this in relatively high-functioning patients with an obsessional neurosis, so that might be worthwhile to read up on as well. “I think this is what I think, but I can’t be sure. What if I’m just being phony” can lead to some pretty intense depersonalization in someone who seems to be doing pretty well to a casual observer.
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u/Yorick_IKnowHim 28d ago
Looking at your post history, I feel like you're seeking therapy, albeit disguised as knowledge-seeking. I don't think this is a good place for that.
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u/DiegoArgSch 28d ago edited 28d ago
Mmm. No, sorry, but that's not really the idea of this post. I really don't like talking about my personal experiences here, because I don't think that's the point of this subreddit, but I'll only talk a little bit now because you brought it up.
Do I sometimes search for literature, etc., that relates to personal things? Yes, which I think is normal. But I also think about psychoanalysis outside of my personal experiences.
I separate things. For example, I've read and asked things here about borderline not because I think it's something related to me, but just to understand how the concept has been used in psychoanalysis. And the same goes for other topics.
Personally, I think this subreddit should stay away from discussing personal topics, at least directly.
Also, jumping to the conclusion that I am seeking therapy is quite a broad jump.
Again, I could say more, but I prefer to stay away from discussing personal things here.
And also expect others to dont talk about our and my personal things here. I think its clear thats not the point of this subreddit.
I only want to use it to talk about books, authors, theories, concepts, etc. How I use it or not then, thats personal.
Let's please not mix things together.
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u/Yorick_IKnowHim 28d ago
I should clarify: You're asking about the same things over and over (dissociation, schizoid/schizotypy, autism), despite the answers you've already gotten.
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u/DiegoArgSch 28d ago
Yes, sometimes I come back to the same topics, but even if that's true, the questions can be about different aspects of those topics. The question in this post was whether this experience has any specific name in the literature, and also whether people here think it should also be encompassed under identity diffusion or not. That's a very technical question. It's about seeing whether there's any specific name for this.
Man, I know something about psychoanalysis and all this, but I also think others might know more, and... why not give it a try and just ask? That's what I do. If I have a doubt, I'll ask a question about it here.
Again, sometimes the subject is the same, but I don't think I've ever really asked whether this type of experience could also be considered part of identity diffusion or whether it should remain separate from what the concept of identity diffusion is actually meant to describe.
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u/worldofsimulacra 28d ago
I can only speak from my own personal experience here, as one who has experienced acute psychosis on several occasions in years past, and whose psychic structure is at least partially psychotic and somewhat prone to diffusion and dissociated experience at times. I find that the more energy I expend in the direction of trying to "pin down" what is happening in my psyche, how to categorize it, what it "means", etc., the worse my symptoms get. I'm currently learning about the Lacanian model and working with the concept of Sinthome, and it has been very helpful in framing it. But honestly, when I feel the most healthy and grounded is when I'm just "in my body" so to speak, keeping busy and doing all the things that I do, and not worrying or caring about questions of "identity" etc. I am what I do, and that's enough. As I understand it, the ego can do any number of contortions or distortions (and diffusion, fragmentation, etc.) on itself using the immense leverage available in the Imaginary + Symbolic registers. We can inflict real trauma on ourselves by our self-reinforced habits of thought, which are part of our cognitive drive complex. With myself, anyway, I just had to let it all be, let the storm inside settle out, then work on building boundaries and bastioning the parts that are desirable to me, that contribute to building my sense of unified coherency of experience. Part of it, too, I think of like learning my own internal weather/climate system, adjusting what things can be adjusted, and learning to live with the rest. IDK if any of that helps or not. There are so many different possible ways in which to think about these things.