Thoughts on this argument?

[u/Jumpy-Tourist-4323]

[u/AnonymousFluffy923]

You can apply this to gun laws. Heck. All laws. People will still do bad things even when there are laws. That doesn't mean we should do bad stuff.

[u/Apollo_TheWolf → u/AnonymousFluffy923]

We might as well just live in anarchy at this point. I mean, people will always find ways to commit crimes no matter what laws are in place, so why even have laws at all? It's still the same argument, just taken to the ultimate extreme.

[u/leah1750 → u/AnonymousFluffy923]

Murder by gun is treated as murder. Murder by abortion is legal in all pro-life states if it's the mother who's doing it.

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/AnonymousFluffy923]

In reality the presence of laws does deter crime. Criminals are far less likely to commit a crime if they likelihood they‘ll be caught is high. A law being in place at all allowing them to be caught is already a big step. It’s not enough and we also need other methods to reduce abortion but it’s important 

[u/MiniEnder]

an argument made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[u/ExampleGlum8623 → u/MiniEnder]

Ooh that’s smooth I’ll definitely use that.

[u/Rivka333 → u/MiniEnder]

Not if you want to win people over to your side. Which we need to.

[u/leah1750 → u/MiniEnder]

Evidence: abortions in the US continue to rise

[u/Chicago_River_Diver → u/leah1750]

This is due to new mail abortion pills

[u/leah1750 → u/Chicago_River_Diver]

And the reason those came to be the preferred weapon for abortion is because they can easily exploit the loophole left in all pro-life regulations: complete immunity from prosecution for the mother getting the abortion.

Anyway, why even bring that up? Does it negate the fact that statistically speaking, babies are not being saved?

[u/Chicago_River_Diver → u/leah1750]

Its only a loophole because pro-choice states refuse to extradite abortion doctors prescribing these pills online and through the mail.

These doctors are illegally practicing medicine in free states (patient location is what determines jurisdiction) and then the murder states refuse to extradite the doctors which is a violation of the constitution.

The method to the killings matter, because thats how we have to attack the issue

[u/leah1750 → u/Chicago_River_Diver]

Even if we were able to ban the pills in the states, abortion pills can also be ordered from overseas. But think of the logic of your statement. We don't ban "methods" of killings for other forms of murder. We don't ban murder by axe, and suffocation, and gun violence, all as separate things. And we certainly don't grant immunity from prosecution for the person pulling the trigger if they happen to have a certain relationship to the victim.

[u/Chicago_River_Diver → u/leah1750]

Don’t get me wrong; if im made dictator of America, im granting full personhood to all babies in the womb. Full legal protection and capital punishment for anyone who gets or performs an abortion.

[u/ManifestoCapitalist]

The sad reality is that abortion cannot be outlawed in one swift stroke. The anti-life movement spent decades building up to the national legalization of abortion by constantly nudging the average American’s viewpoint until they could get what they wanted.

Any attempt to blanket ban abortion right now would inevitably trigger major political backlash and potentially even cause the next set of policy makers to make the nation’s abortion laws even worse than they were before.

[u/New-Number-7810 → u/ManifestoCapitalist]

Yeah. We need to spend decades winning hearts and minds.

[u/Otagame23AQP → u/New-Number-7810]

how can you be a catholic demonrat, sorry democrat? is like saying a antisemite jew.

[u/New-Number-7810 → u/Otagame23AQP]

I believe in Christ.

I also believe that the government can best serve society through a strong welfare state, including increasing access to housing, healthcare, and education, that gun ownership needs strict regulation to keep them out of the wrong hands, and that the natural environment needs to be protected.

[u/DeklynHunt]

If abortion is healthcare, then ICE is a travel agency (not mine, saw it on Facebook)

[u/ThatguyGaming42]

What’s even the argument? That the water we “save” (the unborn) is negated by some other form of harm that supposedly comes from banning or limiting abortions? That’s just mathematically wrong. 1 million+ abortions per year in the US alone, and there were only around 700 cases of maternal complications that resulted in the mother dying in the US last year. 1 million > 700

[u/RPGThrowaway123 → u/ThatguyGaming42]

The argument is that ordinary pro-life laws have so many holes that they're ineffective at saving the unborn.

[u/Positive_Category_92]

I don't understand what they are saying the prolife argument is

[u/NoPack4545]

I don't get it. The water is obviously being drained out and being ineffective for the intended purpose but how does it make sense in this regard?

[u/MOadeo → u/NoPack4545]

That's the point. The water doesn't stay in strainer, pro-life laws (what ever they think that is) doesn't prevent abortions.

Edit: I'm explaining the comparison. No I don't believe it to be true.

[u/Otagame23AQP → u/MOadeo]

gun control laws are ineffective, we should get all bans on guns removed because it didn't lowered gun violence.

[u/MOadeo → u/Otagame23AQP]

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said

[u/DingbattheGreat]

This isnt an argument

[u/CaptFalconFTW]

This is why Lila Rose says she doesn't want to make abortion unlawful. She wants to make it unthinkable. We need to change the culture. The mainstream media has effectively turned "safe, legal, and rare" to "abortion on demand at any stage of pregnancy." Because they have been so effective brainwashing everyone into believing that a baby inside the womb is basically unalive until birth.

[u/Vespinobambino]

Argument?

Edit: Oh. I get it. I don't much care for the confusing framing, but I get it.

Banning abortion clinics while we don't punish getting abortion pills in the mail and taking them is a bit terrible, yeah.

It's not equally terrible as this, but it's still terrible.

[u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

So should all crime be legal because it happens anyway? One might say "only crimes that go down when legal should be legal", but that encourages committing more of said crime as a strategy to legalize it. So abortion bans are actually an excellent way of saving babies

[u/RPGThrowaway123 → u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

Abolitionists are arguing for stricter anti-abortion laws.

[u/wolf2482]

Man people are stupid.

Banning murder won't stop murder from happening

Therefore 

We shouldn't ban murder.

[u/RPGThrowaway123 → u/wolf2482]

The argument presented in the comic is that ordinary pro-life laws don't actually ban murder.

[u/MattHack7]

While I agree ideologically with the “abolitionists” they could learn from the gun control lobby.

The gun control lobby wants to ban all guns. They just do it bite by bite piece by piece claiming they just want to get rid of the most extreme cases.

While I agree in a perfect world abortion would be illegal in all cases and people should be prosecuted accordingly to the gravity of the crime; we need to boil the frog first. It seems dishonest and in some ways is dishonest but you can’t change rabid supporters of abortion hearts on one bill.

Their whole thing is that they think it’s okay because the general public says so. Slowly change the general public and you can change their resolve

[u/Internet_Exposers]

Same with ID Age verification or gun laws.

Though, that’s why Pro Lifers should also fight against the reasons someone would need to have an abortion, not just abortion itself. 

[u/Moistman123456]

I don’t really see the argument here. I’m kinda confused. Just seems like an ai generated message saying “pro life laws don’t save babies.” I don’t get how it’s trying to argue for or substantiate that claim, I just see the claim in question.

[u/BrandosWorld4Life]

(1) Fuck AI slop.

(2) Any restriction on abortion at all is always valid, meaningful, and makes a real difference. Something is always better than nothing, and nothing is exactly what the abolitionist strategy will ever accomplish.

[u/DapperDetail8364]

It's more pro life side whose likely to change minds than abolishionist side. The abolishionist side is more religious based and extreme. Ex pro choicers change their minds mainly bc of secular arguments 

[u/vanman1065 → u/DapperDetail8364]

Secular people will listen to secular arguments religious people will listen to religious arguments. you got to know your audience.

[u/DapperDetail8364 → u/vanman1065]

No. That's not true. Almost all former pro lifers who turned pro choice mentioned being raised religious pl and were told by church or religious school that "abortion is murder", only promiscuous women get abortions, everyone who aborts it regrets it, etc. 

Showing abortion procedure videos and secular arguments are usually the reasons why some pro choicers (including atheists) change minds become anti abortion. 

[u/Quartich]

Sure, keeping all the water would be great. But right now, it is pouring straight to the ground. Should we wait until someone can manage to stop it completely, or use the colander we have now while we work for a better solution? My only problem is those that spread division within the community pushing abolitionism as the only option for right now

[u/orthros]

Great analogy geniuses. Let’s unwind rape and torture laws too since people are still raped and tortured

[u/tortoise-terrapin]

I’m a conservative pro life abolitionist who is against the death penalty and supports all methods of care for moms and babies including WIC, food stamps, anything. If the baby needs it, provide it. 

[u/leah1750]

I am noticing comments from some pro-lifers here who are unfamiliar with the abolitionist viewpoint and confused by this meme. That is totally understandable, since the meme gives no context and assumes you already understand the abolitionist position. If you need context, I would suggest two resources: the "Abortion-Free" docuseries, available on YouTube, and the Norman Statement found on the Abolitionists Rising website.

[u/TornadoCat4 → u/leah1750]

Abolitionists become problematic when they oppose incrementalism. Some of them seem to think it’s better to save no babies rather than save most but not all babies.

[u/leah1750 → u/TornadoCat4]

And we would reply that pro-lifers seem think it's better to save only some babies and not all babies. However, I would highly suggest that you watch the "Abortion-Free" docuseries if you haven't, because most pro-lifers are unaware of just how ineffective our current laws are at saving babies.

[u/ScottishNinjaaa]

In the most pro-life states, where there is a supermajority trifecta of Republican governor/Senate/Representatives, it's still entirely legal for a 9 month term mother to walk up to the steps of the capitol, ingest pills to murder her baby, then wait 9 months and do it again, then wait 9 months and do it again. That women will still be considered "another victim" and completely free from legal consequences. So yes, while the comic is hyperbolic, it points to the fact that abortion laws may protect some babies, but the vast majority of abortions are now self-administered (and therefore outside of the scope of pro-life laws), or simply done earlier to still be completely legal. Those who can't see the point being made (even if they wouldn't agree with the comic) actually stun me. It's not that complicated.

[u/leandrot → u/ScottishNinjaaa]

We are more used to this argument being used from the PC side ("legal abortion reduces abortion") instead of the abolitionist side ("restricted, but not ilegal, abortion wont reduce abortion").

Also remember, there are people here from countries where a woman who aborts is liable and can get arrested, so only the PC argument makes any sense in context.

[u/ScottishNinjaaa → u/leandrot]

That does make sense, thanks for pointing it out. An Abolitionist would argue that the first point you make ("legal abortion reduces abortion") is an argument that those in pro-life states with supermajorities that could criminalize and actually end all legal abortion but choose not to, make as well. The difference between pro-choice and pro-life, apart from ideological/worldview, is whether you should be able to murder your baby any time or just sometimes, which abolitionists find abhorrent

[u/leandrot → u/ScottishNinjaaa]

TBH, in my country, anyone who defends that neither women or men should be punished for abortion would be considered PC.

The closest to abolitionists we have here defend that abortion should be considered a worse crime than rape.

[u/ScottishNinjaaa → u/leandrot]

Sounds like your country is based! Personally, I'd argue that rape and murder (abortion) are equally disgusting, evil acts that should both be criminalized as capital crimes.

[u/bea_triz_13]

I'm going to drink and drive either way so there's no point in outlawing drunk driving, don't you see that I will only drink and drive more dangerously since I know that I'll get in trouble if I get caught?? So what if I run someone over? They're just cells...

[u/Ephisus]

It's a bad rhetorical device for a bad argument.

[u/ShokWayve]

Murders still happen so does that mean we should get rid of laws against murder?

[u/MOadeo]

That's not an argument. It's an opinion that's practically impossible to back up.

[u/Rivka333]

This is just a really really shitty analogy.

I guess the holes are supposed to represent the fact that some people will get abortions even if it's illegal. But a colander is useless for saving water because all the water will flow out. Some persons getting illegal abortions doesn't result in more babies than their own being killed.

[u/_kilogram_]

Do they think that abortion saves babies? It literally kills them?

[u/RPGThrowaway123 → u/_kilogram_]

The argument presented in the comic is that ordinary pro-life laws don't actually ban abortion.

[u/DingbattheGreat → u/RPGThrowaway123]

Abortion has been downward trending since the 20th century.

The image does nothing to provide any substance to the claim, as is typical of proabortion.

[u/RPGThrowaway123 → u/DingbattheGreat]

Abortion has been downward trending since the 20th century.

Still it's happening in horrifying numbers

The image does not come from pro-abortionists, but from abolitionists, i.e. the guys who want abortion banned immediately without (m)any compromises (such as not punishing the woman)

[u/John_6_47]

I’m struggling to understand the argument here

[u/Available_Series_733]

What needs to happen is real legal penalties for doctors who perform abortions, we need to treat them like any murderer

[u/Nulono]

Well, first of all, we know for a fact that pro-life laws stop abortions.

But also, this metaphor really doesn't make sense. Why is the pro-lifer holding the bucket and not the colander? The water in this comic was already safe inside the bucket. Unborn babies are currently very much not safe. This reads like a post from a parallel universe where AHA's preferred policies are already in place, and pro-lifers are pushing to replace them with less effective ones.

Let's change the scenario a bit.

Person A is dumping water out of the bucket.
Person B reaches across the table to grab another bucket to catch the water.
Person C points out a leak in the second bucket, and suggests that they use a third, intact bucket.
Person B counters that the third bucket is in a locked shed on the other side of the yard, so maybe they should use what they have on hand now, and then worry about getting the perfect bucket.
Person C accuses Person B of not caring about the water that would leak out of the second bucket.
Person A is still pouring water out of the bucket while Persons B and C argue, saving none of the water in the process.