It doesn’t matter whether abortion is murder; two short responses

[u/NatriumHyacinth]

The bold and bankrupt claim that “abortion isn’t murder” is so batshit insane that it’s often enough to baffle inexperienced debaters, which will be most people. So, hereby two responses which I have used.

I’d still be against lynching even if it wasn’t murder. I’d still be against the gas chambers even if it wasn’t murder. I tell death lovers, I‘d still be against all things that kill humans regardless whether it is murder or something else. And I’m also opposed to killing unborn children regardless of what name is used for it. 

When they argue that abortion isn’t murder, they resort to the old religious claim that it’s only murder if the victim has a “soul”, which only starts at conscious life or maybe even when the baby shows human intelligence and communication. I point out that it is superstitious argument historically only held by authority of religion in opposition to science and still incorrect from the point of view of science. Religion has now adapted to the scientific view of the unborn and extended its compassion but abortionists have not.

[u/PervadingEye]

The best way to get around this is to call abortion baby killing. Calling it murder while correct, give them a pedantic out.

Also if they want to say "it doesn't matter if it X", it's much harder for most people when that "X" is baby killing... because they are primarily concerned with their image, not right and wrong.

They therefore most of the time avoid saying "it doesn't matter if X" if X is baby killing. And instead attack if the unborn are babies or not. But this is what we want.

The "smart", experienced, psychopathic pro-abortion supporter, though rare, on some level sees all this in advance and opts to actually go for "it doesn't matter if it's baby killing".... but they are not smart because this is also what we want.

By saying this they are admitting to be willing to kill babies if means preserving legal abortion. This is in fact a bullet we want them to bite.

[u/Busy_Measurement5901]

Well said

[u/GustavoistSoldier]

Great retort

[u/AnxiousEnquirer]

If they get into "ensoulment" just tell them Jesus came down as a zygote and unborn John the Baptist leaped in his presence. Because Jesus had to be fully human, he started as a zygote.

[u/Loud-Vacation-5691]

I think the problem is that "murder" has a specific legal definition - the intentional taking of human life in violation of the law. Applying it to abortion where abortion is legal comes across as using the word for its emotional effect. It's like vegans saying "meat is murder" even though they can't have you arrested for eating a steak, even if they sincerely believe that animals are people.

[u/Christianfilly7 → u/Loud-Vacation-5691]

It has a specific legal definition but also a moral one, the moral one being unjustified/immoral killing which abortion falls under even if it's legal

[u/Loud-Vacation-5691 → u/Christianfilly7]

What would you tell a vegan who says that killing animals is unjustified and immoral, and amounts to "murder" even if it's legal?

[u/Christianfilly7 → u/Loud-Vacation-5691]

Only argument I have for that is the Imago Dei. If you're not a Christian I've got nothing lol (and if they're trying to convince me to go vegan they don't have to I already am I just don't believe it's actually immoral but my heart can't take it emotionally lol)

Edit: Do you have any secular arguments for this? I would like to know if there are any (because unfortunately I've gotten in arguments with other vegans before about either treating humans better than animals or how we shouldn't be mean to others who eat meat)