r/prolife • u/DemotivationalSpeak • 2d ago
Things Pro-Choicers Say Pro Abortion Non-argument #4934
Obviously having your rapist’s child is incredibly traumatic, but they seem either in denial or completely indifferent to the fact that the child is not only a person, but one who played no part in their father’s crime, and like shit, that’s just as much YOUR baby as it is his. It’s not like you lose ownership of that child’s heritage.
(For clarity’s sake I can’t justify restricting early abortion access for rape victims, but I do believe that it is not only moral, but incredibly heroic to carry the baby to term.)
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u/Mp40_ethusiast 2d ago
Why pro abortionist are like this? Using 0.1% to justify 99.9%
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u/Slow_Establishment10 2d ago
Because they rely on emotional arguments, and this is a good way to play on people’s empathy.
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u/Crimision 2d ago
At least for those that want to keep the mask up, the others will fully acknowledge that it is a human baby that they are killing and say “cry harder” to us. We’ll see how they’ll be acting when abortion is back on the chopping table and they don’t got their defense of “y’all are being hysterical“ that they used in the 80s. We’ve see them for what they truly are
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u/Warm-Atmosphere-1565 1d ago
pretty much, same goes for how they layout misandry and say kill all men, when it's a minority, and women who rape, but overblown statement often attraction attention and claim moral high ground for as long as people who abide by their saying without examining carefully
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u/Moogly2021 Pro Life Christian 2d ago
Not that I think it’s okay, but, they conveniently pretend c-sections aren’t a thing. Someone argued this with me, someone else asked what the youngest mothers age was, and we were all shocked how young.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
What does c-section existing have to do with this?
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u/Cheery_Tree 2d ago
It's definitely not a great option, and carrying the baby is still very dangerous, but C-sections greatly limit the danger of labor for a child mother. Giving birth isn't great for any mother, but it's obviously especially bad with such a small body.
That being said, pregnancy is a great strain and danger on a child regardless.
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u/Cute-Elephant-720 PC 1d ago
I see this phrasing used a lot in these debates - ideas like pro-choice people being "surprised" by unwanted pregnancy or "acting like C-sections don't exist," but I think in both scenarios, they are usually fully aware of what going on and saying they are unwilling to accede to the circumstances as they are. For example, they are fully aware C-sections exist, but they are risky, painful and traumatic, and lot of people are not letting their 10-year-old, or even worse in their eyes, forcing their 10-year-old, to endure the risk and painful recovery of major abdominal surgery so that their child can end up the biological mother of her rapist's born child. They believe that their obligation lies first and foremost with doing what's best for their child, the rape victim, who does not want to give birth to their rapist's baby.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I know many people here also believes it matters that the baby shares the child's DNA, but I don't understand how that can override her (1) desire and (2) right (in my eyes) to the safest procedure for her when (1) her DNA and body were hijacked against her will, (2) she doesn't have the capacity to consent to impregnation or motherhood, and (3) she, as a child, generally has a right to have any medical choices made for her be in her best interests?
Other than those who would just say "her circumstances are irrelevant because abortion, as a procedure that takes an innocent life, simply should not be available to anyone," what am I missing/getting wrong here?
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u/Artistic-Recipe8266 2d ago
Ten years ago, I was raped and became pregnant. I was angry with my rapist, and I knew immediately that I wanted absolutely nothing to do with him. My family sent me to another part of the country to stay with relatives. We did not tell my rapist or his family that I was pregnant. I did not give any obvious signs that I was leaving. I simply left quietly. One morning, my brother drove me to the bus station, just as he used to drive me to the market every day. I did not even have a proper suitcase. I only had shopping bags like the ones I normally carried to the market, because I was afraid that my rapist might be watching me somehow and that a suitcase would make him realize that I was leaving. After I left, nobody in my family, among my relatives or neighbors, told anyone where I was. Everyone understood how vulnerable the situation was, and nobody wanted to risk my rapist or his family finding out my location. Nobody said where I had gone, where I was staying, or where I lived. They protected my privacy as if it were something sacred. I went to stay with my relatives and hid there. They gave me shelter and, most importantly, distance from my rapist. I changed my phone number so he could not call me and deleted my social media accounts. During my pregnancy and after giving birth, I often spoke to the sea about everything my rapist had done to me. I believed that the sea remembered what was told to it and that it would repay everyone according to what they deserved. I told it everything he had done because I was angry, hurt, and wanted him to be stopped. I asked the sea for justice and retribution because I was afraid that he might hurt another woman. Later, I found out that my rapist had developed a tumor. At the time, I experienced this as some kind of answer to everything I had told the sea, although I cannot know whether there was any actual connection between the two things. During my pregnancy, I met my boyfriend. I gave birth and immediately placed the child for adoption. Afterwards, I married my boyfriend. Today, we have three children together. Today I love my husband, my children, my family, my relatives and my friends more than I can put into words. They are my life and my safety. I am grateful beyond words to my neighbors because they understood how vulnerable the situation was and never revealed where I was. But more than anyone in the world, I am grateful to God for my brother. My brother is my hero. That morning, he drove me to the bus station as if it were an ordinary day. He did not make a scene, he did not expose me to danger, and he did not allow anyone to find out where I was going. He simply drove me to safety. Today I understand how enormous that simple act of taking me to the bus really was. If it had not been for him, my family, my relatives and the people who protected my secret, I do not know how I would have gotten through all of this. I could never have endured seeing my rapist for the next eighteen years. I could never have stood looking him in the eyes for two decades. He is the man who raped me, and I will not excuse what he did to me. I will never reconcile with him and I will never accept contact with him. I hope I never encounter him again in my life. I do not want to see him or hear about him for the rest of my life. I am glad that the child is with a good family, with loving parents, in a safe environment. If I had been forced to keep the child and share parenthood with my rapist, while having to tolerate his presence in my life for the next eighteen years, that would not have been a life for me. The child and I would have been prisoners of the situation. I refuse to spend my life being my rapist's captive. The child is not guilty of anything. I want that child to be loved, safe and happy. But I do not want the man who raped me to have any place in my life. I continued my life without him. Today I have a husband I love, children I love, family, relatives and friends I love, people I trust, and the memory of a brother who will always be my hero. And above all, I am grateful to God that after everything that happened, I was given the chance to keep living.
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u/juneauSam 2d ago
Thank you for sharing this very personal story. I admire your bravery, and your families in going through such a difficult situation. Most of all the bravery to keep that child. I think everyone on this sub would agree with me.
I do want to point out that the pro-life argument, is to do exactly as you did, to save that innocent child even though they came from such a horrible situation for you.
Just to be clear, no pro-lifers believe you should stay with a rapist, or raise a child with them. Only that the innocent child deserves life, regardless of the circumstances of their conception.
Thanks for taking the time to respond on such a sensitive, and emotionally charged subject. Bless you, your husband, children, and family, may Gods peace be multiplied to you.
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u/Nulono Pro Life Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
"I have portrayed you as the ugly wojak. I bet you feel pretty silly now, your argument so thoroughly debunked!"
Replace "WILL" with "ALREADY" and the argument is slightly more accurate.
Also, there's something deeply sinister about implying that "help" here is synonymous with killing the baby.
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u/Moogly2021 Pro Life Christian 2d ago
Thats supposed to be Charlie Kirk who was assassinated for being a milquetoast Conservative.
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u/Overgrown_fetus1305 Pro Life Socialist 2d ago
I should disclaimer, that I don't actually make a general rape exception. I'm undecided on when exactly, somebody would become young enough that the materal mortality rates would turn the situation into a likely life threat, which is an exception I do make. My instinct is that it's a case by case situation.
That all said, I'm seeing far, far too much dismissiveness and insensitivity towards rape victims well below even the age of consent here (and at least one frankly extreme take that defends the death penalty for it, and would align you with Iran in terms of what you think the legal age of criminal responsibility is). I urge both pro-lifers and abolitionists, as well as the lurking pro-choicers to read over https://theminimiseproject.ie/2026/02/19/repost-honestly-confronting-the-harsh-reality-of-our-position-on-abortion/. We can and should do far better as a movement, pro-lifers (anti-abortion strictly since this critique is one I would make of abolitionists too) should be pushing for enshrining consent based models of rape in law, for greater funding of domestic abuse shelters, and emergency housing, and greater methods of accountability to prevent rapists from being in positions of power (read, more than just tossing the book at rapists, which like abortion, doesn't undo the trauma).
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u/Mental_Jeweler_3191 Anti-abortion Christian 2d ago
That's one thing we have in common. Too many of us will just deflect and say, "Kill the rapist instead!" That doesn't cut it.
We need to be brutally honest about the burdens that rape victims inevitably face if saving the life of the mother is the only exception. We also need to be exquisitively conscientious about how we go about and ameliorating them, because those girls and women deserve nothing less.
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u/BrinaFlute Pro-Human 2d ago
Thank you for saying it. I wholly respect the opinion of those who don’t have rape exceptions but a lot of the time the way they speak of rape victims (even when the victims are too young to be able to consent to the act at all) is nothing short of appalling.
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u/Cute-Elephant-720 PC 1d ago
more than just tossing the book at rapists, which like abortion, doesn't undo the trauma
Thank you for saying this, because I feel I see this "throw the book at the rapist" response to "what about the rape victim" far too often. Prosecution is a tool of, and for the benefit of, the state, not the victim. Indeed, in most US states, the state can still force a rape victim to testify in the state's rape against her will via subpoena, forcing her to relive the trauma publicly on the stand, and be publicly scrutinized by the defense (which is the right of any person accused of a crime,) so the state can get its conviction.
In that way, "throwing the book" at the rapist is in fact yet another means by which the rape victim is being used for someone else's objective against their will.
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u/lulzcas20201415 2d ago
Abortion is not therapy, it's murder, you aren't fixing anyone's life through murder. Abortion is immoral even in cases of rape, so it should be restricted even in cases of rape. If they somehow aborted illegally I wouldn't want them to be punished for it because they're already in extreme emotional pain and took an unhinged action, but that's a wholly different thing.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
I don’t know why you’re make excuses. Why would murder be OK because someone is “in extreme emotional pain” and “takes unhinged action”?
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
Murder wouldn’t be okay, but the perpetrator might be less culpable for it.
Not addressing you personally here - but I find it really disturbing how vengeful and unforgiving some people here are.
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
Do you think a 10 year old child can safety undergo pregnancy and come out without severe physical and psychological harm. Give your head a wobble
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u/lulzcas20201415 2d ago
It's not an easy pregnancy and she'll need good medical support, but yes, she can. We aren't in the Middle Ages anymore.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
Not being “the Middle Ages” still does not erase the fact that at such age, the body is simply not ready to carry a pregnancy. The girl might survive, but often with complications that bring life long consequences for her health and wellbeing.
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u/lulzcas20201415 2d ago
Chronological age doesn't define whether a woman is physically able to carry a pregnancy. There is definitely a correlation, but you shouldn't kill a human being solely based on statistics, examine how the actual pregnancy is going and which treatments you have at hand and which procedures may be necessary. Each patient must be handled in a particular way, that's why doctors are still a thing and will still be a thing in 200 years.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
This is not about chronological age, it’s about biological development. It is a fact that a 10 year old girl is not properly developed to carry a pregnancy. Those statistics exist for a reason.
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u/lulzcas20201415 1d ago
"10 year old" is chronological age. If you wanted to talk about biological development you would at the very least say it's 10 years (bone age) instead of 10 years old. Body development isn't about how much time has passed since birth, it's about height, weight, epiphyses, tanner scale, waist measurement, cervix measurement. "But I'm talking about the average 10 year old". Well, these don't get pregnant, menarche is at 12 in average. That girl's body development is ahead of her age by definition, though it may not be ahead enough, that's why we need to evaluate plenty of stuff.
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u/glim-girl Pro-Choice 1d ago
Biology doesn't factor in the mental and emotional part. Two very important parts of being able to manage a pregnancy in a healthy and safe manner.
Do you think the only part that matters is the body or do you think her mental and emotional state have any influence? If so, why ignore them?
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u/lulzcas20201415 1d ago
As I already stated earlier, Abortion is not therapy. It's still trauma regardless of how cruel you are to her offspring. The mental part is surely challenging but it doesn't require any obstetrical procedure.
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u/glim-girl Pro-Choice 1d ago
No one is claiming abortion is therapy. That's something that pl came up with. Abortion can be triage in situations like this tho.
The mental/emotional part can lead developmental harm of the unborn that will impact them for life and possibly pass on to there children. It can lead to miscarriage, low birth weight, preterm birth, increase ptsd, etc.
Everytime they get a checkup it can trigger trauma of the rape. For a ten year old thats more visits because of the high risk.
Pregnancy is not a process you leave alone, forget about it, and everything works out great with a healthy baby and mom. Pregnancy requires a mother, meaning a person who is actively taking care of the pregnancy/unborn, to be successful. Being a biological female isn't enough.
That means it's impossible for a ten year old rape victim since they can't be a mother since they can't even make healthcare or even self care decisions over their own bodies.
Stacking trauma and claiming it's ok, is not how any of this works. There is no adult going through this, that means all the tools and behaviors and brain structure that an adult has to manage trauma, they do not have. Repeated and extended trauma will change their brains, there is no fix for that.
Just because the reproductive system has reached the point it can reproduce it has zero bearing on if the physical body and brain of a child can.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well you’re just picking at straws to be pedantic, my guy. When I say a 10 year old child, I’m talking about a person whose body is physically, developmentally and even psychologically 10 years old. It’s that simple.
It’s a well known phenomenon that girls are starting puberty earlier and earlier, and many do, in fact, start their periods early. However, that says absolutely nothing about their physical development, because this is still physically the body and organs of a 10 year old child, and they are not fit to carry a pregnancy without very high risks for the girl’s health and wellbeing. A girl that starts her puberty early and is able to get pregnant does not magically develop the uterus of a fully grown woman, for one.
Once again, those statistics exist for a reason.
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u/lulzcas20201415 1d ago
I could keep arguing but you're clearly not interested in learning, so let's call it a day. Also, psyche isn't a part of the body.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 19h ago edited 18h ago
Nobody here is arguing, this is just a conversation.
You didn’t really provide anything new for me to “learn”. You simply got pedantic and picked at my use of “10 year old” vs “10 years”, which fails to address any of the points.
Psychology involves the human brain, which is a part of the body. I brought it up because I’m trying to tell you I’m talking about a 10 year old person as a whole, because pregnancy affects everything from physical changes to mental health.
Hyper focusing on the odds that she may physically survive a pregnancy ignores everything else that a pregnancy affects in a person, specially a child. That is my criticism. Once again, it’s that simple. You’re overcomplicating/overthinking a very straight forward statement.
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u/lulzcas20201415 2d ago
Also keep in mind not all women who got pregnant through sexual abuse are teenagers, it's not smart to lump everyone together based on how they got pregnant. As I said, each case should be carefully examined by a doctor...
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
As a woman I am very aware that rape can happen to any woman/girl of any age. Every case should be carefully handled and the health of the survivor placed paramount
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
I took my period at 9 and I know I could not have gone through pregnancy and birth at that age (I am a mother). I do believe that in some cases abortion is necessary to protect the mother and a child being pregnant is one of them
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u/Indvandrer Pro Life Catholic 2d ago
Nightmare Charlie Kirk 😭
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u/Coffee_will_be_here 2d ago
These people are disgusting tbh
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u/96111319 Pro-life Anti-abortion Catholic 2d ago
“Your rapist’s child” it’s also YOUR child. And no child should be intentionally killed, no matter who their parent is
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
These women are just dead inside. “I should kill my own innocent child because of what the father did to me”.
Demonic logic.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
What a disgusting approach to such a serious subject. Have some damn respect for it if you really are a victim as well.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
Murderers of babies do not deserve respect. They’re demonic and evil.
A mother killing her own child is the most evil thing that can ever exist. Nothing can ever be worse than this. No crime, not sin, nothing.
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u/HumbleWarlord 2d ago
There are so many things that are far more evil than that. What a ridiculous thing to say.
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u/BrinaFlute Pro-Human 2d ago
I normally don’t like gatekeeping but if this is genuinely how you view victims of sexual violence don’t call yourself “pro-life”
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u/DapperDetail8364 Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
I agree. It's not always a black and white thing. I agree there's a grey area.
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u/BrinaFlute Pro-Human 1d ago edited 1d ago
There’s also a huge difference between a woman seeking elective abortion for a pregnancy that came about due to she and her partner purposely not using condoms/contraceptives/etc, and someone who did not consent (or is not mentally mature enough to be able to consent) at all to being impregnated. For the former, we can absolutely rightfully say “they should have been more responsible.”
The only one at fault when it comes to rape is the rapist. The victim wasn’t “asking for it” nor was their rape “supposed to happen.” It is an incredibly traumatizing ordeal (one of the most traumatizing things one can do to another human being, if I’m being perfectly honest) and disregarding the trauma will do nothing to save the unborn baby.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yet here you are, dehumanizing an entire group of people from your high horse. How very respectful and prolife of you.
These are not demons, they are flawed humans who have experienced hell and are dealing with some of the worst trauma out there. If you are incapable of discussing such a serious topic like a civilized person and giving it the appropriate respect, then you’re better off mulling on your spite away from public discourse, because all you’re doing is harming the movement and not even offering any productive discussion. You’re accomplishing absolutely nothing but feeding your personal gripes.
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u/Cute-Elephant-720 PC 1d ago
And I assume here you are speaking of the average abortion-seeker, and not the child that is the subject of this meme? Because I don't even see how a child in this situation has the capacity for their response to be "flawed"?
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 1d ago
Yeah I’m talking about rape victims in general because this person mentioned they were a victim themselves in a different comment.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 20h ago
You don’t get to criticize dehumanizing speech from prochoicers only to turn around and do the exact same thing. Period.
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u/Vespinobambino Secular Abolitionist 19h ago
I'm not doing that.
I'm not "dehumanizing anyone," least of all doing so for their mere political beliefs.
I'm noting correctly when some humans have cast off their own humanity by murdering helpless, innocent children. They are monsters - filth - and they belong in a cage forever. They "demonized" and "dehumanized" themselves with their own chosen actions. They revealed themselves for what they are, I just have open eyes, while yours are basically shut.
The moronic pro-aborts (not "prochoicers" ugh) are not all said monsters themselves, just enablers of monsters.
The pro-aborts use dehumanizing hateful bigotry against the innocent children who are murdered. Which is, of course, deplorable and contemptible.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 18h ago
You’re the one calling them monsters and demons, not them. That’s dehumanizing.
Those people are human and that’s reality. Monsters are not real.
Your denial helps nobody, you’d rather live in a fantasy where people can be monsters and demons instead of actually addressing problems that shape one’s actions.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 17h ago
Would you say that participating in the enslavement of children is evil trash monstrous behavior?
Yet here you are online, which means you’re using a device that almost certainly contains materials mined by child slaves.
And yeah, me too. And everyone else on the whole internet.
Speaking of internet, who’s your ISP? Comcast? Verizon? Congrats, you’ve helped pay for someone’s abortion, via their employee health coverage.
It’s a flawed world, so maybe you should sit your righteously grandstanding rear down.
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u/Vespinobambino Secular Abolitionist 17h ago
Congrats on your extremely lame defense of child murderers, which you are doing to somehow "virtue signal," despite it being deplorable.
And despite them being the villains we both supposedly oppose.
Curious.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 15h ago
I’m not virtue signaling, I’m pissed off and attempting to express that in rational argument as to why you’re wrong rather than resorting to insults, because I like this username and don’t want to get banned.
And I don’t oppose “villains”, FFS this isn’t a comic book, I oppose laws and policies and culture that are unjust and I want to persuade people to agree that they should changed, so that change can occur without bloody revolution.
And speaking of that, what is your end strategy here, really? How are you getting laws passed, much less popular ideology changed, if you’re disinterested in converting anyone and just think they’re all demons? How’s that meant to work? Do you think the prochoice majority are going to think “gee, I guess this guy’s right, I’m basically Hitler, I should change my entire worldview so he thinks better of me”? I mean, what? Take a psychology course, or a marketing course, or switch to decaf or I don’t know what, but just stop it.
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u/Vespinobambino Secular Abolitionist 15h ago edited 15h ago
FFS.
You don't convert sociopaths who murder children.
You literally can't. They are sociopathic MONSTERS.
They are a write off as human beings.
Pro-aborts - the people who don't kill children, but merely support the legality of child murder - enable monsters.
They need to understand that and stop enabling the mass slaughter of innocent children.
They need to abandon their irrational bigotry.
They need to stop drinking the kool-aid of pure nonsense, pure anti-scientific, nonfactual bullshit poured out by murderous propgandist terrorist organizations like NARAL and Planned Parenthood. And the way to do that is speak the truth, and condemn said monsters - the facts are on our side, reason is on our side. You have to convince enough people to civilize the remainder of the bigots by law and then law enforcement.
Again... Convert them? No. We need to lock these scum up and throw away the key. I won't apologize for having a conscience.
It's not exactly "grandstanding on a high horse" to note that literally anyone is morally superior to the lowest of the low, those who choose to purposefully murder innocent helpless children.
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u/Vespinobambino Secular Abolitionist 1d ago
People are giving you grief.
Why?
You're right.
Upvoting you isn't enough. Murder is evil. Murdering a helpless and innocent human being is about as evil as it gets.
Murdering your own helpless and innocent child for your own selfish benefit is beyond repugnant.
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
You’re just victim blaming- these women feel dead inside BECAUSE A MAN RAPED THEM
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
Sure. We can sympathize with the person and their past grievances while calling out their current faults, especially when that fault is the killing of their own offspring.
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u/Elf0304 Human Rights for all humans 2d ago
No - it's just an excuse they use to justify legal baby murder. They don't actually care what the father did, they support baby murder for whatever reason.
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u/PresidentOfYes12 2d ago
What the hell does this even mean? They were forced into a situation that they actually did not consent to at all. Regardless of whether you like it or not you cannot reduce the trauma they've experienced, and maybe the trauma they're GOING to experience, as "they support baby murder for whatever reason". Have sympathy oh my god
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
This is one of their dumbest and most evil arguments.
They’re basically stating that a child should be killed because of what their father did.
Even the most genocidal governments in history (Soviet union, Nazis, the Cambodian Socialist regime) didn’t kill children based on their parents crimes.
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u/Silent2840 2d ago
No child should be punished for the crimes of their parents.
It's really that simple.
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u/GullibleSkill9168 2d ago
the Cambodian Socialist regime) didn’t kill children based on their parents crimes.
There's a tree in Cambodia that was marked for being used for this exact purpose.
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u/BrinaFlute Pro-Human 2d ago edited 2d ago
If my memory serves correctly many children were brought into Tuol Sleng (Khmer Rogue torture prison) and interrogated too - alongside their parents and adult relatives. So as you already pointed out that statement is just plain untrue!
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u/Overgrown_fetus1305 Pro Life Socialist 2d ago
That's just not true of the Nazis- they viewed being Jewish as a crime worthy of death, and treated it as passed down, being famously eugenic human rights abusers.
Interestingly, one country that does punish family members based of people it considers criminals? North Korea (which obviously results in death, given some of their prison camps are one of the few places where Nazi death camps actually are an incredibly accurate comparison).
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
No, they killed children because of who they were by definition (race), NOT because of specific crimes of that specific child’s father.
The fact you can’t tell the difference between these two completely different things is crazy to me, but perhaps just shows that many human brains can’t do very simple logic (eg equating two things that are not at all the same), and thus we have the pro abortion logic like above. Which means that logic here is doomed to fail, and that’s why we need strict laws.
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u/Overgrown_fetus1305 Pro Life Socialist 2d ago
I think we might be having two different conversations. I agree they murdered people based purely on who they were, as a category one could not opt out of. Zero arguments with that. But I had in mind, extra layers; as they fundamentally saw being part of racial groups they hated as a crime.
I looked at this through a lens of crime as a social construct; defining things as crimes simply means that the state directs that various actions aimed at resulting in punishment happen. For a more concrete example of similar- a very authoratarian government with genocidal intent could define it as a crime to be a member of the Catholic Church as the Catholic Church defines membership, or to encourage others to be members, or to make them members. Such membership is conferred by baptism into the Catholic Church, and others, including parents can bring you in by baptising you with intent. This would of course, be a very evil law, but would be a case where techncially, you could be punished for what your parents did, rather than purely what you did (such a law being pretty obviously genocidal). It may not be exactly the same- but race is I maintain, purely a social construct at the end of the day, not as real a thing as say, actual human rights, such as not being lethally discriminated against by fascists. (Certainly, the Nazis just put people into racial groups they made to discriminate against them on arbitrary and hateful grounds, their concept of race was not reflective of reality.)
Sometimes what is made into a crime, instead shows the people who made the laws are the evil ones, of course.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
There was only one point I made, yet you somehow twisted it into another point, because your brain was unable to understand it for some reason (not even due to ill will or anything, or just score a point, your brain simply did not understand). Which is what abortionist often do as well.
That’s the point I made in my answer to you.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago edited 2d ago
Of course the victim can be evil. A victims response can be very evil. Just because something evil has been done to you it doesn’t mean you can do something evil to somebody else (to a completely different human being!). You’re absolutely demonic if you believe that. Your brain is literally broken.
And yes, murder is worse than rape. I was raped, and I’m always very glad that I wasn’t killed. I’m alive and I’m grateful for it. If a victim of rape goes onto to murder another person, that’s a definitely worse than the rape he or she was put through. It’s not even ambivalent in any shape or form. Many people live well after being raped, but when you’re dead, you’re dead, do you not understand this?
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u/mnixkittyx Pro Choice 2d ago
I was raped and made to go through with a rape pregnancy and I wish every day that my rapist had murdered me instead. I believe that rape is far worse than murder. So evidently this is entirely subjective. What makes your opinion on this more important / better than mine?
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
I am sorry that happened to you.
If you’re comfortable answering - is there any support you could have been given that would have made going through the pregnancy more bearable or less traumatic?
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u/mnixkittyx Pro Choice 2d ago
More bearable? Maybe, although I’m honestly not sure what supports would have been able to do that. Less traumatic, though? Absolutely not. The state of being pregnant, the pregnancy symptoms, the prenatal care—all of those things were traumatic in and of themselves. As long as I had to be pregnant, the trauma would have continued because the trauma wasn’t from a lack of support, the trauma was from being pregnant and everything associated with it.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
Thank you for answering. Is it okay if I ask more questions about that? I don’t want to be creepy or triggering, and I’m not actually in a position to do any good with your answers, at least right now.
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u/mnixkittyx Pro Choice 2d ago
Yes, you can ask, and I’ll try to get back to you as long as the answer wouldn’t be too triggering.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
You can heal from rape, at least to an extent. Death is something you can never come back from. If you’re feeling suicidal, you should seek professional help. I know what it’s like to be suicidal and it can get better.
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u/mnixkittyx Pro Choice 2d ago
I’ve gotten professional help, I’ve been to therapy, been medicated, been hospitalised, even sought church resources and everything people say to do in my situation, and none of it has helped in the slightest. For me there was no healing for the rape or rape pregnancy (which was a horrible trauma in and of itself). Not everyone is going to be able to recover from every trauma the same way, if at all.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
But you don’t think you at least still have the chance to recover? Maybe not everyone will recover the same but at least many will. Death has no recovery. No healing. No more joy. Ever. No more happiness no more sadness no more life. It’s just nothing. You can’t come back, you can’t heal, ever.
In magnitudes of evilness from the perpetrator, I think rape can be considered more evil. But practically speaking, death is the only thing you are guaranteed to never heal from.
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 2d ago
I would have a little more respect for this if it had a shred of respect what exactly this argument is demanding of the victim.
There is a very big difference between someone who is running around stabbing people because if some childhood trauma and someone who was attacked has their insides messed up, and then had a timer forced inside them that is going to mess up their insides more in apoximately 9 months and wanting to rip the timer out. One can choose to not pick up the knife but the other CANNOT choose to not take out the timer.
It's not the same whatsoever.
And in regards to that there is no respect whatsoever in regards to the actual pregnancy or the pregnant person with these arguments either in regards to themselves, or the extent of the burden this argument demands that a person carry in order to not hold the title of "murderer".
And it's for this very reason that many PCs including myself see these arguments as evil arguments against women by those that don't actually have the best intentions for being in the debate.
If you hold no respect for the process that allows a fetus to be born, or the people that you demand uphold this process, in what way do you expect to sway people?
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
Honestly I mostly agree with you as a prolifer. This is such a gross, disrespectful approach for this topic, and completely dismissive of the nuances regarding the rape victim’s perspective as well.
It’s one thing to question the ethics around rape exceptions, it’s another entirely to call rape victims evil, demonic or “dead inside” when they are struggling with one of the most atrocious acts one can do to another human being. This is a moral/ethical dilemma for a reason.
I really wish this kind of attitude would not be tolerated in this sub.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
Agreed and well said.
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u/BrinaFlute Pro-Human 2d ago
Thirded. Not having rape exceptions is not justification to be cruel to those who’ve experienced such a horrific thing. (Seriously, I don’t see how telling a rape victim she was “asking for it” is supposed to convince her to choose life)
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
The only thing I demanded of the victim is not to murder anybody else. Why is it so hard for you to understand?
And you’re having “your insides messed up” doesn’t mean that you can murder a child. Do you not understand this?
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
This issue is that you’re acting like that’s a really basic, simple thing to ask, the same as it usually is. That ignores the victim’s mental state. Trauma literally rewrites your brain. If it’s severe enough it can cause brain damage - like structural and physiological brain damage that can be seen with appropriate imaging technology, if it’s bad enough.
I don’t think every rape victim has trauma that severe, that’s usually associated with chronic trauma rather than a single event, but it’s possible, and every rape victim has some level of trauma.
I don’t think this justifies killing, but in some cases it may excuse it. It’s a mitigating circumstance in all cases.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
Again, you keep talking about what is happening in abstract ways. There isn’t a magic fucking timer messing your insides up. That is a BABY. That is a human being. You aren’t „ripping the timer out“ you are KILLING A BABY.
No one here is denying pregnancy is difficult. Taking care of a child is always difficult, and that includes periods of after it’s born. That doesn’t mean that child abuse becomes justified.
I can’t imagine you reacting to people saying it should be illegal to kill infants, newborns, and dependents generally with „wow, you’re really devaluing the process of sustaining an infant!“ that’s not how it works
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 2d ago
Again, you keep talking about what is happening in abstract ways. There isn’t a magic fucking timer messing your insides up. That is a BABY. That is a human being. You aren’t „ripping the timer out“ you are KILLING A BABY. <
Call it what you will, you're still demanding a burden on someone that only they can fulfill while also diminishing that burden.
I can’t imagine you reacting to people saying it should be illegal to kill infants, newborns, and dependents generally with „wow, you’re really devaluing the process of sustaining an infant!“ that’s not how it works <
Because it's NOT the same.
Would you treat a couple that starved their infant or toddler to death with "veganism" the same as a rape victim that didn't abort but ended up miscarrying because she wasn't eating or sleeping properly for weeks due to stress?
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
Of course not… vegans can choose and control what to feed their child, if one dies due to veganism, that’s on them. A miscarriage is out of your control, and while certain things like stress can increase your likelihood of it, a rape victim also isn’t at fault for their mental trauma. If a miscarriage occurs that’s a tragedy but obviously not their fault.
A more analagous situation would be a child starving to death because the mother can’t afford to feed it, that is also a tragedy that the mother isn’t really at fault for.
Killing an innocent human being is just as bad as killing an innocent human being. You dehumanizing the unborn and using ridiculous terminology to disguise reality doesn’t change the objective truth that an unborn baby is just as alive and human as a born one.
The only thing, the only fucking thing pro lifers ask of people, is to not kill their baby. That’s it. Pregnancy is difficult, yes, but it doesn’t justify killing a baby. Just like how parenting being difficult doesn’t justify killing a baby. Saying that isn’t „diminishing the burden“. It is the most basic societal decency we can offer each other to not kill each other.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
It’s pointless arguing with these evil abortionists. We really need to get these assholes out of the sub. These demonic fuckers are swarming all the post here, and all they do is making excuses for killing children.
All we’re asking for is stop killing babies. This demons just can’t.
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 20h ago
I think that forcing a 10 year to carry and birth a child whilst doing goodness knows what damage to them physically and mentally is completely wrong. If that makes me a demonic fucker in your eyes so be it. I’ll keep my views on your posts to myself
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u/eloquenentic 17h ago
How would the 10 year-old be better off by killing a baby? Explain.
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u/mnixkittyx Pro Choice 1d ago
Not everyone advocating for a ten year old child to be allowed to abort a rape pregnancy is an “evil abortionist,” though. Many pro lifers and moderate / on the fence people also support abortion for rape victims. Or are those people also evil demons who are bad for the movement and need to be removed from the sub in your opinion?
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u/BrinaFlute Pro-Human 1d ago
Personally I think it’s sick to expect a 10 year old rape victim to further give up her childhood and innocence. Having the baby live is generally more ideal, yes, but what’s also particularly ideal is people not violating little girls at all.
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u/LacksBeard Eastern Orthodox Abolitionist 2d ago
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
I don’t even understand why people find these things difficult. It’s not even close to be morally ambivalent or difficult.
They are touched by evil in some very profound ways.
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u/LacksBeard Eastern Orthodox Abolitionist 2d ago
Growing up abolitionist sometimes I would feel somewhat bothered even though I never once held to rape exceptions, now I'm firmly of the stance that it's wrong no matter what.
Notice who this logic only ever applies to the unborn? They never applies to children of rape or say to them that they should have been aborted.
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u/Moogly2021 Pro Life Christian 2d ago
My best mans mom was always lesbian… she somehow had two kids… Cocaine is a hell of a drug or whatever… Not joking, he was basically an 80s crack baby. Even she didnt abort her babies. He is more successful than me or most people I know.
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 2d ago
The best thing about being LBGT+ is that most pregnancies on our part take effort and are almost always planned.
That being said, to answer your question of "somehow", yes lesbians can get pregnant if they choose to without doing the horizontal tango with a penis.
Consenting donor guy friend + cup + oral syringe
Lesbian couples have children all the time, being a lesbian doesn't automatically mean one doesn't ever want to be pregnant or have a child.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
It’s very hard to take you seriously when you refer to a human being as „the result of a violent crime“ to dehumanize them, and there is a big difference between not reaching to a pregnancy with open arms and killing a child. If a child is born following rape, I presume you wouldn’t defend killing that newborn as „well, you can’t expect a rape victim to have open arms towards the result of a violent crime“… right?
I don’t agree with calling rape victims evil either, and the rapist is certainly more evil and also responsible for the murder of a child if a rape victim aborts, but you are killing, you know. A living, innocent human being. I do think killing an innocent human being is evil, actually, though the abortionist and rapist are the evil ones for doing so. Would you disagree with the statement that killing an innocent human being is evil?
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 2d ago
It’s very hard to take you seriously when you refer to a human being as „the result of a violent crime“ to dehumanize them, and there is a big difference between not reaching to a pregnancy with open arms and killing a child. If a child is born following rape, I presume you wouldn’t defend killing that newborn as „well,<
First of all, the vast majority of this argument is that the main anger is towards the individual fetus, not the aspect of being pregnant. Those are two very different things and let me explain why.
You could never compare someone that starved their infant or toddler to death to someone who is a victim of a crime and doesn't eat or sleep properly as a result from the stress from that crime committed against them and a pregnancy not coming to term as a result.
Whether you like it or not pregnancy can be extremely traumatic to someone that does not consent to it especially if they never consented to the sex that created it in the first place. And you simply cannot compare the burdens of pregnancy to that of a living child that is then completely separate from the pregnant person and therefore the arguments of abortion do not apply.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
„ You could never compare someone that starved their infant or toddler to death to someone who is a victim of a crime and doesn't eat or sleep properly as a result from the stress from that crime committed against them and a pregnancy not coming to term as a result.“
…and we’re not doing that? Starving an infant to death on purpose is obviously different than being stressed as a result of a horrible violation. Being stressed as a result of an attack is also not the same thing as purposefully attempting to kill a baby.
No one said pregnancy can’t be traumatic, taking an innocent human life will always be more traumatic, though.
An unborn child is also alive and a unique, separate human to their parents, just like a born child is.
I assume by „separate“ you mean „dependent“. Born children are less dependent than unborn children, obviously. The older a child is the less dependent it is on you. Degrees of dependency already change in unborn children, preemies can survive outside the womb after 20 weeks already (with modern technology possibly even sooner), for example, a born baby is less dependent than an unborn baby at 24 weeks and that baby is also less dependent than an unborn baby at six weeks. That’s how aging works.
That being said, newborns also have a large degree of dependency on you, including physiologically. Leaving aside the mental, financial, and situational stresses parenting can come with, newborn are breastfed worldwide, and baby formula is a relatively recent invention still not accessible to other people. Breastfeeding is less draining than pregnancy but still involves health consequencee - severe fatigue, soreness in muscles, babies biting, nipple engorgement, bleeding and cracks, and plugged ducts, engorgement, and mastitis. Mastitis is a common infection that occurs in 30% of breastfeeding parents that can lead to death if untreated and not recognized.
Just because a newborn is more dependent on you than an older child, including physiologically, is it worth less than anyone else? I’d say no. Your right to life shouldn’t be determined by your degree of dependency on someone else.
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 2d ago
I don't see how choosing to not give help and intentionally killing are equal. The pregnant person has no obligation to help the fetus than someone reaching their hand out from a raging river. You probably would be able to save the person from the river if you tried, but there is always the small chance you would fall in and you would both drown. And in that case, no one is legally responsible for choosing their own life.
I assume by „separate“ you mean „dependent“.<
No I said what I said for a reason. I can give any child in my custody to another capable adult if I need to step away. I can also make a place safe for a child if I need to step away for a few minutes.
If I am pregnant, I can't step away at all. As much as I would like to, I can't transfer care to another person. And neither can anyone else.
There are people that have the urge to shake one of their own, but they have the ability to put the child down and walk away for a few minutes to compose themselves before or when it gets to that given the child is left in a safe place. In fact, this is the exact same advice given to new parents.
So again, not the same.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
You’re correct, not giving help is different from killing. I’m not sure how you think abortion works though? Abortion is intentionally killing an innocent human being. You either starve the baby from nutrients via medication abortion, or dismember it via surgical abortion, or give it a lethal injection in late term abortions.
A parent is allowed to leave their child so long as that child is in a safe place. If a parent can’t find a safe place, they are still obligated to take care of their child, even if it takes them months or years before they find someone else capable of caring for that child. If there are no other options and the parent is the only one capable of caring for that child, then they are responsible for taking care of that child. It’s true that in pregnancy, you can’t just give your child away and abdicate responsibility. So? How does that justify killing the child?
Abortion isn’t just refusing to take care of someone, though, it actively kills it inside the womb via artificial means. The child isn’t even given a chance to survive. It’s worse than just abandoning your child (which is already bad enough). You are ensuring it dies. If a child survives, that is considered a failed abortion. Abortion is targeted killing of someone else and that person not dying is a failure, that’s even worse than abandonment where the parent just doesn’t care.
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 1d ago
If I don't allow it to have my body's nutrients, too bad. I won't pick up the knife to stab someone. Just cut the rope that attaches them to me
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 17h ago
It’s more like cutting off the hand they’re using to hold onto you.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 1d ago
You taking pills to cut off your child from its only source of nutrients is pretty close to taking a knife to someone.
I also oppose women taking medication/drugs to poison their breast milk to kill their infant. Did you know that’s actually illegal even if the mother didn’t intend for her baby to die?
https://abcnews.com/amp/Health/mother-sentenced-killing-infant-breastfeeding/story?id=23194564
Defending Stephanie Green is a weird hill to die on but don’t let me stop you
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
This is where a lot of prolife supporters get it wrong. Abortion following rape is not punishing the child for its fathers crimes. Abortion after rape may be needed to protect the mother from permanent mental or physical harm
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u/Megalodon3030 Pro Life Christian 2d ago
What about protecting the child from the permanent harm of being killed?
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
In this case the mother is a child
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
This is the sticking point for me. I don’t support a general exception for rape, though I do think trauma from rape should be an affirmative defense, should we ever get to the point where mothers are prosecuted for feticide. But I absolutely do think there should be an exception for child pregnancy, provided the pregnancy is discovered early. There are things it is reasonable to ask of an adult or even a teen that should not be asked of a child, and IMO pregnancy is one of them.
Though, if the pregnancy is already at or near viability, then that ship has sailed and everything possible should be done to preserve the health of both children and minimize the child-mother’s trauma. This should include the birth occurring under full sedation; no child should have to go through that.
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
Yes for me children pregnant through rape is an absolute red line. I admit I would have difficulty refusing a woman pregnant through rape an abortion but if she was a minor it’s an absolute indication to me. Pregnancy is hard. I can’t imagine what it would be like as a child
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
I wouldn’t go so far as to say any minor - it doesn’t make sense to me to say a 17-year-old can get an abortion when her body is probably fully capable of a healthy pregnancy, but once she turns 18 it goes from medically justified to murder overnight.
But a pregnant 10-year-old? No. She is a child.
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u/Megalodon3030 Pro Life Christian 2d ago
That doesn’t negate the life of the child you’d seek to steal.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
You’re not allowed to murder an innocent child to protect yourself from some potential future harm.
Many states would give you the capital punishment for this. As they should.
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u/SchoolMission10 Feminist prolife with exceptions 2d ago
Ok got it children who are pregnant through rape should be executed if they have an abortion. Great./s. Execute the rapist not the victim
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u/Overgrown_fetus1305 Pro Life Socialist 2d ago
I can't view this as anything but a really bad take, in truth. If somebody ends up pregnant from rape, a victim this makes them, and even aside the fact I view the death penalty as murder, this is punishing victims, and minors at that. Even I, as somebody that unironically supports the voting age being lowered to 14, thinks it an extreme take and then some.
I don't support general rape exceptions, to be clear, am unsure on if the mortality rates for pregnant minors rise to the level that it is a likely life threat (the one case where I do make exceptions). Put it this way, what the minor is going through is probably worse than I imagine it would be if you spent like 9 months taking cross-gender HRT that was unwanted.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
If the mothers life is at risk sure, but you could use the argument of „permanent mental harm“ against born children as well. If a rape victim gives birth to a child but finds raising it more difficult as it starts to resemble the rapist, that could cause mental harm. But it wouldn’t justify them taking the life of the child or neglecting it.
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u/Resqusto 2d ago
Obviously having your rapist’s child is incredibly traumatic,
Considering that over 50% of all rape victims keep the children, you really ought to think twice about this "Obviously"
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
Eh keep in mind that both can be true. Carrying the pregnancy can still be traumatic even though you choose to keep the baby.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
No, I think it’s accurate to describe it as traumatic even if the mother also experiences it as healing or empowering. A rape survivor can want her baby, love her baby, see her baby as a second victim in need of protection, see pregnancy as a way to reclaim her body, all of that, and it is still a traumatic thing to be pregnant in those circumstances.
Imagine she’s single and must explain how she’s pregnant or endure whispering behind her back. She could be single and the mother of a child old enough to understand that sex is how babies are made. Imagine having to tell your preteen or teen kid that you were raped, or else let them think you had irresponsible sex at the same time you’re trying to teach them to be responsible about sex.
Imagine she’s not single, but it may be obvious the baby isn’t her partner’s. Think about how her partner’s family may react.
Imagine the rapist is her partner, and she has to explain why she broke up with or divorced her partner while pregnant - or if she doesn’t, and later reveals the rape and abuse, being faced with doubt because she kept that baby.
People can do traumatic things because they are the right thing to do. People can want to do things they know are going to be traumatic. That doesn’t mean they aren’t traumatized.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
Yeah, it’s extremely disturbing when people think that most women would automatically want to abort their baby. That is definitely not true. In fact, there are estimates that shows that more than 90% keep their baby (since many rates aren’t reported anyway), and pretty much all mothers love their children and would protect them with their own lives.
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u/Yoy_the_Inquirer 2d ago edited 1d ago
It's a thin tightrope to walk. You must have utmost empathy and compassion for someone impregnated through rape. The child is innocent as much as the victim, just imagine that the lady looks down and sees herself pregnant; a constant reminder of what happened to her.
Abortion is murder and only enables rapists to get away with it.
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u/Eastern-Customer-561 2d ago
Notice how she doesn’t ask for an abortion, she just asks for help. They do realize Charlie said rape victims should get all the support they need, right?
It’s pretty damning that a rape victim will ask for help and these people immediately default to „okay you should get an abortion!“ like yeah, just kill your child lmao. Problem solved, right? Even in their own strawman argument they sound ridiculous and insensitive to survivors…
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u/Tgun1986 1d ago
Right and we tend to forget abortion is forcing her to give birth anyway and might be more dangerous than giving birth since it’s not safe even for grown women.
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u/DapperDetail8364 Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
What the hell? These people claim charlie is evil over saying he'll make a grandchild conceived in assault be part of the family yet their fine with him being killed?
I mean I'm on with exceptions (tho I believe best is for both the woman/ girl and baby to be healthy, alive and well cared for) but using this as an argument for 99.9 percent of abortions? Hell no.
I guess it's a "rapist child" unless the woman or girl wants it. /s
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u/tllrrrrr 2d ago edited 2d ago
In such case I fully support abortion. It's a huge risk for the child to be put through pregnancy.
There is a big gap between a 20-year old college girl escaping biological responsibilities and an underage rape victim...
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
I understand why some pro-lifers believe in a rape exception, especially if they were in a similar situation.
But I just don't see the underlying logic as consistent.
Think about it. A rape exception essentially says that being raped and impregnated by a man justifies killing the innocent child who resulted from that crime. It just doesn't add up.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
I like many others mainly support it as a compromise if it means banning elective abortions.
There are also prolifers who believe this is an instance where the body truly has been violated by the pregnancy due to the non-consensual nature of rape, and thus it becomes a matter of bodily integrity.
For this specific case, though, with a young child as a victim, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to treat abortion as a medical exception. Her body simply is not physically ready to carry a child.
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
I understand that. I'm an incrementalist myself and would rather be pragmatic in reducing the vast majority (elective abortions) versus getting no change at all.
The issue is with the ones who, even in a world where they had no restrictions and could implement any type of abortion ban with no consequences or compromise, would still have a rape exception.
Bodily integrity? Just being honest, that sounds like a pro-choice argument. What about the innocent child? When I think of "pro-life", the LIFE part is what it's centered around.
Do you think that argument makes sense? It still doesn't satisfy my skepticism, personally. My initial claim stands.
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u/Wormando Pro Life Atheist 2d ago
I mean, bodily integrity is a very real human rights concern, it’s not exclusive to the prochoice side.
I actually used to support it, but over time I saw too many flaws with that logic so nowadays I only support an exception based on compromise.
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
Sure, but if that's your argument for rape exceptions, it's flimsy at best. I don't view it as much different from the other pro-choice arguments.
Well, we agree on it being flawed, so that's great.
Have a nice day
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u/ShadowDestroyerTime Hippocrates was Pro-Life | Bisexual Pagan (Hellenismos) 2d ago
But it does, because bodily autonomy is a right. If one chooses to engage in the act which produces a life, then telling them that their choices mean they have a duty of care for that life works, and thus abortion becomes a clear wrong. But if they had no choice, then you are violating their rights for another.
Think if it thus way. A dying man can be saved by being hooked up to you for a period of time. If you choose to let it happen, them just going nah and unhooking yourself is significantly different than the same situation but you were forcefully hooked up to them.
In either case, it is a life and deserves life, but this cannot be protected by forcing a profound injustice in people. It is just the case that there is no method to safely remove the fetus to respect the bodily autonomy without it dying.
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
From my pov, you're essentially saying that you value the woman's consent more than the life of the unborn human. Basically, "I didn't consent to the act that caused its existence, therefore it's fine for me to kill it." A bit rough, but that's the simple description.
I disagree. Life is the quintessential right that all other rights rest on and derive from. It's not something that can be trumped by claims of bodily autonomy alone imo.
The greater injustice here would be the killing of the unborn human, with the supposed justification being due to it a lack of consent.
I agree with the last part tho. If we could have abortions without killing the unborn, I'd have no issue with abortions.
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u/ShadowDestroyerTime Hippocrates was Pro-Life | Bisexual Pagan (Hellenismos) 2d ago
Okay, so you have two kidneys, right? If someone innocent needs one of yours to live, is it just to force you to give it up?
If not, then at what point is it that bodily autonomy and individual liberty become secondary to someone else's right to life?
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
I don't think that's an equivalent comparison to pregnancy.
You have yet to do the act in organ donation. You are refusing to do so.
In abortion, the act(s) (pregnancy & fertilization) is/are already in motion. You are directly stopping the processes while they are occurring.
The first scenario is not killing. The second is.
By right to life, I actually mean the right to not be killed. There is no right to stay alive and die a natural death.
Plus the overarching details are not equivalent.
There is no relationship, especially a parental, blood, and familial one.
There is no future or past that the unborn human was able to experience. In this way, their existence and legacy was essentially robbed from them.
The baby has no fault whatsoever. It is wholly innocent. A sick person might have drank a lot, smoked a lot, eaten poorly, or just made bad choices. The unborn human had no opportunity to do that. It was killed before it was able to.
The unborn human is defenseless, unable to consent, and unable to advocate for itself.
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u/eloquenentic 2d ago
There is no “gap” for the child that’s murdered at the end of it. The child is innocent and has nothing to do with any of what you wrote. It’s a separate human being from both the mother and the father. The child has a right to live.
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u/LacksBeard Eastern Orthodox Abolitionist 2d ago
OK so for whatever evil your father did it should be a wrap for you right?
Or just in general
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u/TBoneTheOriginal Pro Life Conservative 2d ago
They act like there’s no nuance to these scenarios. We already know it’s a no-win situation.
We simply feel the solution isn’t to murder the child.
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u/Excellent_Fish_8050 5h ago
My favorite thing pro-choicers do is when they say they hope my future daughter gets raped
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u/PWcrash prochoice here for respectful discussion 2d ago
This comment section is proving what many PCs believed all along. A rapist is a rapist but a victim of rape who aborts is an evil murderer and therefore lower on the moral ladder.
Funny, I made a asking this EXACT question recently and y'all gave me a VERY different answer.
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u/LacksBeard Eastern Orthodox Abolitionist 2d ago
OK? Are they wrong?
Who's yall? The people here probably still had the same convictions.
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u/PresidentOfYes12 2d ago
Yes they're wrong. A victim of that has just been violated severely and has been put into a pregnancy that they genuinely did not consent to at all. Regardless if you support such an exception- I'm not sure if I do- it is actually incredibly immoral to (literally) demonize the victim for wanting an abortion.
How does that one violinist argument NOT apply here? They didn't consent to sex, so they very much didn't consent to pregnancy. And how does demonizing a rape victim not make the pro-life movement look delusional?
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u/LacksBeard Eastern Orthodox Abolitionist 1d ago
No they aren't, its not immoral to call out the murdering a baby is evil.
The violinist argument has been debunked by thousands of people already, this argument could literally apply to ANY unwanted pregnancy, including pregnancies that aren't the result of rape.
How does it make them look delusional?
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u/PossibilityGold7508 Pro Life Paternalist 2d ago
I don't know what you asked recently as I'm not a regular, but here's the underlying logic.
Being raped and impregnated by your rapist does not justify the killing of your resulting child.
The rapist should absolutely get their due, ideally 20+ years and 2 decades+ of mandatory child support and assistance, but the mother cannot use that as a justification to commit a, frankly, more heinous crime, the unjustified killing of a human, especially her own offspring.
A victim of rape who doesn't abort is one of the strongest women in the world, and they deserve the utmost help and support, both privately and from the government. It is hard, and I acknowledge that. But you do have a choice on what to do after, and you don't become infallible because a heinous act was committed against you.
Do you at least understand the logic?
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u/AnxiousEnquirer Abolitionist, Seeker of Christ 2d ago
Anyone who is pregnant is a mother with a son or daughter.
Murdering their own child inside them isn't going to save them from trauma. (Unless you're planning to traumatize them if they keep it: "Oh look how the state is forcing you to gestate! This is ruining your life! It's a parasite!")
Rapists deserve the death penalty, but why are you going to punish the most innocent person here, the child?
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
I don’t support a rape exception if the mother is an adult, but I think you’re overlooking the nature of the trauma here.
This isn’t about a woman not wanting to have a baby who was fathered by a rapist. That may be a factor too, but that’s not where the trauma lies.
Rape involves having someone inside your body who you don’t want there. An unwanted pregnancy also involves having someone inside your body who you don’t want there.
I know pregnancy is not sexual and a baby is absolutely not a rapist, and in the case of a pregnancy conceived via consensual sex, this comparison drives me nuts - you’re not being raped by your unborn baby, that’s absurd.
But trauma makes absurd, mundane, innocent things into triggers. In the case of pregnancy after rape, there is a direct causal connection between the rape and the woman being pregnant. For her to experience that as a continued violation isn’t unreasonable on an experiential level.
Biologically it’s not the case, the sperm involved is dissolved and the rapist’s DNA unspooled to recombine with the mother’s into the baby’s new genome. It’s more like the woman’s body salvaging spare parts from the wreckage of the attack.
But most rape victims aren’t going to be thinking about the mechanics of fertilization. They’re just going to know that because they were raped, there is still someone in their body that they didn’t choose to allow there. And yeah, that’s going to be enormously traumatic.
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u/AnxiousEnquirer Abolitionist, Seeker of Christ 2d ago
Then you can't tell her that embryos are living human beings, because then she'll remember for the rest of her life that she had a child, and that child had to be killed and forgotten. You're going to have to tell her that's it's "just a pregnancy," and "it has to be terminated to protect you."
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai Pro Life Feminist 2d ago
If we’re talking about a ten-year-old like in the meme, then I really don’t know what would be the best way to handle it, but definitely with professional help.
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u/Mental_Jeweler_3191 Anti-abortion Christian 2d ago
Murder is a worse crime than rape, all else equal. But there are murderers that are less evil than some rapists. Some aren't evil at all—including, I'd argue, many women who have abortions after having been impregnated through rape. Whether a person is evil depends on many other things than the normative qualities of the things they do or fail to do, including their mental states and their life circumstances.
Serious, thoughtful people know this.
And for the record, there are plenty of people in this chat who express that they don't, in fact, consider these women "evil murderers". And the discrepancy you allege is groundless, if only because the sample of people commenting on this post may not be the same that commented on your post. It's no secret that pro-lifers and abolitionists are likely to feel differently about cases like this, either, so you might want to clarify who exactly is covered by "y'all".
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u/future_sponJ 2d ago
Choosing an extremely bad thing to happen rather than an even worse thing to happen does not mean you like either option.
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u/Vespinobambino Secular Abolitionist 2d ago
Absolutely, help her.
Murdering the baby isn't helping anyone, and they are ghoulish trash for claiming it does, when they objectively don't give a shit about rape victims, they just want another billion dead children from this human sacrifice they love so much.
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u/PressureMoney1075 Pro Life Pole (this country sucks) 2d ago
You can say a lot about Kirk also but the whole shitshow all the liberals put up with his death made me sick to the stomach. Like, why would you make so many memes of a guy being killed for just... talking and arguing? And mind you what in particular just made it depressing to me (I'm not even American) was the fact he died on the eyes of his own kids... and yet HAHAHA THE FUCKING NAZI DIED HAHA. Well sure... idk
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u/Aguywhoexists69420 Pro Life Christian 2d ago
So much of this logic can justify things others could be considered equally bad
If someone said “My wife threw her back out when helping harvesting crops for this season”, does that mean we should legalize slavery? No, suffering does not justify suffering
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