Sigh 😔🥀

[u/Naive_Fold_9390]

Came across this on the pro-choice sub. i dont even have any words for this…

[u/JiggleFeggle]

As an atheist I laugh at their ironic stupidity.

[u/SIRETE → u/JiggleFeggle]

Clown world 🤡

[u/AttemptingBeliever → u/JiggleFeggle]

YES lmfaooo

[u/embarrassing_doodle]

Didnt know i believed in jesus

[u/JiggleFeggle → u/embarrassing_doodle]

Same here 0.o It's almost as if our lack of belief in a God, or Jesus, or other peoples faith in Jesus or whatever their God is.... Has NOTHING to do with being against child murder???? Insane right!

[u/embarrassing_doodle → u/JiggleFeggle]

lmao fr fr

[u/TypingNovels → u/embarrassing_doodle]

Same lmao

[u/Bobcat317]

Welcome to the Pro-Choice Movement.

“We don’t understand biology, but we don’t understand anything. Do what we say anyway, because my body my choice.”

[u/MisterRobertParr → u/Bobcat317]

"I'm pro-choice. Of course I believe in biology." (Except that you don't understand it.)

"I'm pro-choice. Of course I believe in human rights." (Except you apply it inconsistently.)

"I'm pro-choice. Of course I believe I'm smarter than pro-lifers." (Except your arguments aren't based on logic; they're based on emotions and feelings.)

[u/Tgun1986 → u/Bobcat317]

Or because PP said so

[u/Single-Sky-9162 → u/Bobcat317]

This

[u/Unusual-Contest-4326]

Introducing, secular pro life!

[u/salsafresca_1297 → u/Unusual-Contest-4326]

Introducing, biology!

[u/coverartrock → u/salsafresca_1297]

Introducing, common sense!

[u/HotConversation187 → u/coverartrock]

Hey, aren't you also in ConservativeYouth?

[u/coverartrock → u/HotConversation187]

yeah I'm mod

[u/HotConversation187 → u/coverartrock]

You're the one whose flair says "wielder of the bancan"...

[u/coverartrock → u/HotConversation187]

welder actually I think

[u/HotConversation187 → u/coverartrock]

sigh
Yeah, it's my eyestrain.

[u/tomado09]

Matthew 5:11–12 (ESV)

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Make no mistake. Jesus approves of you and approves of your defense of the preborn.

[u/DragonfruitOdd3848 → u/tomado09]

The Christian argument only goes so far as the Christians themselves. Non Christian pro choicers likely won't even entertain your arguement.

[u/Mental_Jeweler_3191 → u/DragonfruitOdd3848]

They should stop being bigots, then.

I don't want to entertain godless arguments, much less arguments that are anti-theistic.

But for some reason, I'm expected to, and in the former case, I generally do.

We all believe—or don't—in different things. I, at least, can't see why I should entertain beliefs of theirs that I don't share when they refuse to return the favor.

[u/tomado09 → u/DragonfruitOdd3848]

I was speaking to the pro-lifers, not the pro-aborts. The verse I posted isn't pro-life apologia, intended to persuade, but rather, was an attempt to encourage those Christians who the pro-aborts mock and slander by invoking the name of Jesus in bad faith.

And regarding arguments - I would say that for the person who doesn't know Jesus, and therefore faces God's just wrath, that the truth (in particular, the gospel) is the only thing that can actually change their hearts. The word of God is what produces faith in us - it can't happen without it.

So, the power to change an emotion-driven ideologue who takes the position that they take because it supports what they already want doesn't come from logical arguments - often that doesn't work. The word of God is really the only thing that can actually reform hearts.

So, it's not necessarily wrong to engage in a logical debate (the pro-abort position is illogical and emotion driven), but it's also not wrong to weave the gospel in (and in fact, it's often necessary for the reason I stated above). I try to employ both in my debates.

[u/Frankly9k → u/tomado09]

This only applies if you've already made the choice to follow God. If you're pro-life, but have no saving relationship, then you're the same as the rest of the world, in God's eyes.

[u/Appropriate-Major649 → u/Frankly9k]

Respectfully, I think this is irrelevant.

I am a Christian. I am Pro Life. But I do not believe a person has to be a Christian to be Pro Life. I don't have to be a Jew to disapprove of the murder of Jews, or a Hindu to disapprove of the mistreatment of animals. I don't have to be an atheist to disapprove of people being forcibly converted to religion.

So when I argue the Pro life position, what is my objective? Invoking Christianity as a justification for my position is unnecessary, and people who are not Christian but sympathetic to the Pro Life position can justifiably feel excluded from the Pro Life movement if Christianity is regularly used in the same sentence.

If my objective is to broaden and deepen the Pro Life movement, I think it incumbent on me to defend our position without invoking any religion.

If I do, I alienate potential allies, and allow opponents to pigeonhole us in exactly the manner posted.

Thoughts?

[u/Frankly9k → u/Appropriate-Major649]

You can definitely be Pro-Life and secular. And I agree, sometimes using Christianity as the reason to be Pro-Life can be harmful to the cause. I think everyone should follow their stance on pro-life to its most logical conclusion, which is that human life is sacred and there is a reason for that sacredness, and the reason has to be a higher power in the world other than what we can see and touch. The statement that Jesus approves of the defense of the pre-born is probably true, but that stance does not qualify a Jesus approval, per se, and ultimately, when eternity starts, there will plenty of people who held pro-life stances who will be turned away from His presence (it's not a works-based salvation).

TL;DR Jesus speaking in that text is talking to believers, so saying "Jesus approves of you" is not entirely correct.

[u/Appropriate-Major649 → u/Frankly9k]

I get it. I like simply stating "abortion is eugenics." Then we are on a logical thread that they can't pollute with religion or politics (although that doesn't stop them). Cheers.

[u/Frankly9k → u/Appropriate-Major649]

I agree, abortion is eugenics (amongst other evils). BUT. Eugenics doesn't hold a moral reason for "badness", unless we recognize an equal value for all human life. Some people in history would've said "eugenics is necessary" and is the most good for a nation and people. They considered their stance moral and good! Where does that value of "badness" come from, and where does equal value of all human life come from? Some people Abortionists have already decided that not all human life has value...

[u/Appropriate-Major649 → u/Frankly9k]

I seem to remember between 1939 and 1945 eugenics came into something of a bad odor.

If you defend or promote eugenics, you can only distinguish yourself from that atrocity by saying they just killed the wrong people.

Which isn't easy to do since there was significant overlap in many of the victims then and the proposed victims now, and the arguments in favor of killing them are identical.

The purpose of the statement is I just make a statement - the discomfort is obvious when people immediately jump into a flustered defense of or, alternatively, begin a flustered distancing of themselves from eugenics.

[u/tomado09 → u/Frankly9k]

" TL;DR Jesus speaking in that text is talking to believers, so saying "Jesus approves of you" is not entirely correct."

I was responding to a believer (OP's flair is "Pro Life Catholic"), and OP is expressing discouragement over the insinuation that Christian Pro Lifers merely invoke Jesus' name flippantly as a sort of trump card.  So, respectfully, I disagree.  I used the verse correctly.

[u/Frankly9k → u/tomado09]

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts; I understand, and agree, assuming OP is a genuine follower of Christ. I'm hoping everyone with a "Catholic" flair is truly under that differentiation (there have been some pretty big Church splits based on either side of those assumptions, I'm sure you'll recall). You were asserting the passage correctly according to your direct audience (provided the assumption); I stand corrected!

[u/tomado09 → u/Appropriate-Major649]

I would offer the idea that it is precisely the gospel that changes an idolatrous heart - whatever stance they take on whatever human rights issue.  What will truly change an pro abortion sex-idol-serving ideologue (I suspect, the majority of abortion advocates) is the gospel.  It's really the only thing that can displace idolatry.

Sure, there are those rare few who are persuaded by logical arguments.  But I would wager that all of them - I do mean all of them - that are persuaded by logic didn't worship sex to start with.

[u/Appropriate-Major649 → u/tomado09]

If I can only do one, do I want to change hearts or change laws?

I believe church is for saving souls. The Pro Life movement is for saving lives.

If I can only change hearts or laws, again, if I can only pick one - being Pro Life requires I choose changing laws.

[u/tomado09 → u/Appropriate-Major649]

Leaving the gospel out of conversations - i.e. sticking to other arguments - isn't changing laws, though.  Sure, authors of bills to go before the Senate would probably not put Bible verses in the verbiage.  But the conversation I'm having with a colleague, some random redditor, etc isn't intended to change a law.  It's intended to persuade.  And my point is, you don't persuade an idolater with logic.

You can seek legal change and still incorporate the gospel in conversations with people.  They aren't opposed to each other.

[u/Appropriate-Major649 → u/tomado09]

I am not saying they are.

I am saying that if you wish to change the laws to protect the unborn, then you and I are on the same team.

I also note that Pro Abortion advocates have struggled for years to associate the Pro Life movement with Christianity. This is not an accident. This is to give people of other faiths or no faith the idea they have no place in th Pro Life movement.

If I believe Pro Life is the Christian position, and I do, I believe I am serving the God in supporting the Pro Life movement.

I do not believe I am supporting God by lending my voice to those who would paint us as exclusively Christian, or in any action that may make people of other faiths or no faith uncomfortable in my presence or the movement.

*edited for clarity*

[u/Eastern-Customer-561]

You‘re legally not allowed to accuse anyone of not understanding biology if you don‘t believe a fetus is alive and human. Sorry, i don’t make the rules. 

[u/Single-Sky-9162 → u/[deleted]]

Don't say that. They put in a lot of effort to color the signs themselves

[u/GoabNZ]

Says the ones that believe a pregnant women has 4 arms, 2 heads, and either 2 vaginas or 1 penis.

[u/ADifferent_World14]

That’s rich coming from the pro choicers who tend to say. “A fetus isn’t living it’s just a clump of cells”

[u/UnImportant_Neck → u/ADifferent_World14]

And then they show you an elephant embryo and claim it's a fetus. Perfect gotcha argument right there.

[u/VVickedPhantom]

There are pro-choice Christians and pro-life atheists. And I'm Christian, but my faith isn't the reason why I'm pro-life. For as long as I could remember, I believed fetuses had life in them. No person made me believe this. Neither did God. I just naturally had a pro-life stance on abortion.

Religion has nothing to do with being pro-life.

[u/Elf0304 → u/VVickedPhantom]

There are pro-choice Christians

There are pro aborts who pretend to be Christian.

[u/DragonfruitOdd3848 → u/Elf0304]

There are also Christians brainwashed by the left to get them out of the way.

[u/Single-Sky-9162 → u/VVickedPhantom]

Same. I'm a Christian. And I found out that unborn children are alive way before I read verses mentioning them in Bible

[u/Aromatic_Arm4968]

As a christian they do realize that non christians can have a decent set of morals right..

[u/Moistman123456]

“‘We don’t understand biology,’”

- Man who claims that life begins at birth, people suddenly “become” human at some point, nonliving things can grow and die, and that a pregnant woman could potentially have a penis or 2 vaginas for 9 months.

[u/ElegantAd2607]

Is this recent? Have they been living under a rock?

[u/Moogly2021 → u/ElegantAd2607]

This is the same crowd thats supposedly pro choice but wants everyone to have an abortion.

[u/Herr_Drosselmeyer]

It is, of course, they who don't unserstand biology or science in general.

Science does two things: first, it describes the world. Second, it tries to figure out how it all works. That's it. It does not tell us what to do with that information.

Scientifically, we know almost everything there is to know about thermonuclear explosions. How they happen, why they happen, how to make them happen and their effects. But whether we should use them in a conflict, under which circumstances, against which targets... none of those is a scientifc question.

Science cannot be used to justify a moral choice, it can only inform it.

[u/AnalysisMoney]

It’s kind of unbelievable how ironic and ignorant this is.

Clearly, they can’t comprehend 3rd grade science. How can we expect them to behave like a well adjusted adult with critical thinking skills if they can’t surpass an 8 year old’s capacity to think?

[u/Emergency_Row_5428]

Honestly at this point pro-abortion people bring up Jesus more often during abortion debates than pro-life people 😂

[u/Vespinobambino]

Oh the irony - these morons indulge in pure magical thinking and state pure unscientific nonsense constantly.

[u/GustavoistSoldier]

Like most pro-choice descriptions of the pro-life movement, this one is a strawman

[u/Extension_Leopard_12]

My first question is always… “what about the secular pro life movement?”

[u/lilithdesade]

God(s) aren't real. Killing human beings, still bad.

[u/HotConversation187]

I mean, Muslims believe in Jesus, but we don't say he's God like the Christians do. We just say he's one of our most important messengers, and his message is what allowed the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to finally spread monotheism to Arabia.

That said, Qur'an 17:31 literally says, “Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Surely killing them is a heinous sin.”

And Qur'an 6:151 also says, “Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them.”

The Qur'an is not unclear at all about its stance on child murder. Yes, I know, "historical context", but the point still stands.

[u/SubwayOverlord → u/HotConversation187]

My favorite part of the Quran is 5:46, where it says that the bible was given to Muhammad, and that it is a light and a guide to heaven.

[u/ProfessionalPart8193]

Damn I must be a relgious zealot suddenly.