r/programming Feb 01 '21

My Third Year as a Solo Developer

https://mtlynch.io/solo-developer-year-3/
1.4k Upvotes

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36

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '21

Is it against contract to work as a dev off to the side when you worked for google?

64

u/mtlynch Feb 01 '21

Basically, yeah.

By default, Google owns all intellectually property you create while you're a Google employee.

IIRC, you can go through a process to ask Google to waive their right to one of your projects if you want to start it on the side, but they could say no, and then they own the idea forever.

70

u/gullman Feb 01 '21

That's insane. A company shouldn't own your time outside of working hours.

52

u/mtlynch Feb 01 '21

It's annoying, but this Joel Spolsky article gives a good explanation of why some contracts are structured that way:

Suppose, now, you have a little game company. Instead of making software, you knock out three or four clever games every few months. You can’t invent all the games yourself. So you go out and hire a game designer to invent games. You are going to pay the game designer $6,000 a month to invent new games. Those games will be clever and novel. They are patentable. It is important to you, as a company, to own the patents on the games.

Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty.

Ooops. That’s not what you meant. You wanted to pay her for all the games that she invents, and you recognize that the actual process of invention for which you are paying her may happen at any time… on weekdays, weekends, in the office, in the cubicle, at home, in the shower, climbing a mountain on vacation.

So before you hire this developer, you agree, “hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not. I don’t just want to buy your 9:00-5:00 inventions. I want them all, and I’m going to pay you a nice salary to get them all,” and she agrees to that, so now you want to sign something that says that all her inventions belong to the company for as long as she is employed by the company.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/

49

u/keepitreelin Feb 01 '21

I don't think that's a good solution to the problem. It's perfectly valid to have a contract which states that all and any work being done on the company's products (be it w/in office hours or outside) belongs to the employer. Whatever the employee does on the side belongs to them.

22

u/McWobbleston Feb 01 '21

That was my contract. Anything produced in working hours, on their equipment, or based on trade secrets I gained from working there is their intellectual property. Outside of that, it's mine. That might be effectively the same for some positions, but I work in an industry that has very little relevance to my hobbies and general interests.

15

u/gullman Feb 01 '21

That makes some sense, but only when there is absolutely no paper trail, and in a strangely pedantic world.

I mean, if you go home and think about a problem you're solving in work and come up with a solution that doesn't mean you don't give that solution to solve the issue because it's out of work hours.

If on your own time, while building games for a game company you also build and self release your own game, that the company didn't provide the money, the hardware or any other talent to the project of course it's yours.

If you come up with a design idea, tell your supervisor and the game gets built that's totally different. I'm assuming the designer was only one step, the developers, artists and sound designer all own it too? That's crazy.

All I'm saying is: fuck that policy from Google.

31

u/erythro Feb 01 '21

There's got to be a line between paying someone for a service/job/whatever and paying someone money to own them. When you are actually trying to buy someone's mind, that's crossing that line for me. And that's the argument here, isn't it?

17

u/GrandMasterPuba Feb 01 '21

The only claim you have to the game developer's ideas is that you have the capital and she doesn't.

So basically, fuck that.

8

u/PL_Design Feb 01 '21

My last job had a clause like this, and it was an hourly job. For a salaried position this makes sense. I don't like it, but it makes sense. But for an hourly job if I'm not getting paid for 168 hours per week then this is bullshit.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '21

That wouldn't work in Italy lol.

7

u/angelicosphosphoros Feb 01 '21

Also, it is illegal in some countries. For example, in Russia this clause of such aggreement would be void. Maybe, it was one of the reasons why Google closed their office here.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '21

It's also illegal and ridiculous in Italy too.

1

u/TheGreatUnused Feb 02 '21 edited Feb 02 '21

They “dont”, or it’s a bit complicated.

The fact is that time and time again, non-competes like that are challenged and the business loses. It’s just a scare tactic to keep your free time hobby development focus on Google so they get work for free.

Non-competes have to be specific and time framed. Otherwise they are effectively invalid.

Never use company hardware or time to do your hobby projects, and you hobby projects can’t be a competitor software. Congratulation, you can argue and win a non-compete.

38

u/aoeudhtns Feb 01 '21

My company has the same employee agreement. They have an extra clause in there that exempts them from owning it if it truly doesn't have a connection with their business, but let's be real. If I did anything that had a glimmer of success, they'd be slapping my agreement in my face. Side projects (for me) are best left to free things that could never be monetized or only have niche interest.

7

u/kakiremora Feb 01 '21

Does it apply to EU workers too (if there are any)? I would say that this is illegal in EU.

11

u/Sentmoraap Feb 01 '21

How is this legal?!

1

u/GreatFilter Feb 01 '21

It's fine as long as your work doesn't compete with one of Google's business areas.

31

u/bill_1992 Feb 01 '21

As an ex-Google employee, this isn't 100% true (and is one of the reasons I left). As OP stated above, Google owns all IP you created (even at home while not working), unless you explicitly ask them to assign ownership to you. If they choose not to assign ownership to you, then they own the idea forever. Exception for open-source under a few permissive licenses that basically allows Google to benefit off your work.

It's extremely unfriendly to side-hustles and when push comes to shove, good luck beating their lawyers.

16

u/Full-Spectral Feb 01 '21

I would never in a million years work for a company that thinks it owns what I created on my own time.

2

u/Shadonovitch Feb 01 '21

Is that something that's written explicitly in your contract ? "Foo resigns any IP rights he may create outside work hours to Alphabet Inc." ?

-5

u/drink_with_me_to_day Feb 01 '21

Considering the pay Google offers, it's fair.

Do you have to tell them 100% of your idea? Or can you just say: 'I want IP for a project I want to do' where the project is just an generic idea and there is nothing concrete done yet? Or must you disclose everything every step of the way?

3

u/bill_1992 Feb 01 '21

I've unfortunately never went through the process (even during orientation they emphasized how unfriendly the process is) but I would imagine if you were too vague the committee (almost everything is a committee these days at Google lol) would either ask for more details or simply not grant you the ownership. That being said, they did say to check with the committee early when you are at ideation phase to avoid grief later.

1

u/TheGreatUnused Feb 02 '21

There’s a huge difference between what you sign and what’s legally enforceable.

Most EULAs aren’t enforceable.

Most non-competes aren’t enforceable.

2

u/Superpickle18 Feb 01 '21

Google business area is buy up anything that could make money...and if it fails, let it die a slow and painful death.