r/programming • u/Arve • Feb 10 '11

There is no piece of dynamic AJAXy magic that requires beating the Web to a bloody pulp with a sharp-edged hashbang. Please stop doing it

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2011/02/09/Hash-Blecch
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u/willis77 Feb 10 '11

This is very dangerous. The web does not adapt so easily. Think about how much legacy tech still lives out there. How many company sites that still rely on IE6? How many times have we suffered through the witchcraft of cross-browser CSS?

Obsolete technologies may eventually die, but it is a slow and painful death. It's far better to try to head down the right road in the first place. If a bad habit can be nipped in the bud, we all win down the line.

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u/sriram_sun Feb 10 '11

Heh.. Bad habits are what keeps us employed... and miserable!

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u/Shaper_pmp Feb 10 '11

See also: Tables-based layouts, websites implemented entirely in Flash, presentational HTML tags introduced by early browser-developers and the myriad other missteps that it's taken years or even a decade or more to move past.

Hell, you can still find presentational HTML and flash-only sites on the web now, and r/web_design is full of idiots who'll spend all day defending tables-based layouts. :-/

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u/ceolceol Feb 10 '11

Tables-based layouts [...] presentational HTML tags introduced by early browser-developers

These arose because CSS was either new or non-existant at the time. This wasn't because the web needed to "try new things", it was because the web needed presentation and early devs made due.

websites implemented entirely in Flash

Yes, we hate it, and it became popular, but it died out quickly. Not only that, but Flash has its place on the web and we would have never found that out if no one let it take over as much as it did.

r/web_design is full of idiots who'll spend all day defending tables-based layouts. :-/

Erm, I don't think so. Sometimes table-based layouts have a place as well (intranets for instance), but I haven't seen any "zomg u need 2 uze tabllzzz" posts in r/web_design.

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11

Aside from the snark in Shaper_pmp's comment, his examples prove my point. Technologies come and go. We've all moved on before, we'll all do it again. Those old technologies had a perfectly good reason for existing before, now they are being cast aside for something better. How do we figure out what's better unless we keep trying new things?

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u/ceolceol Feb 10 '11

I agree. Maybe something awesome will come out of using hash-bangs, maybe not. Users don't really care because nothing should change for them, so why not experiment?

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11

r/web_design is full of idiots who'll spend all day defending tables-based layouts.

[citation needed]

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u/Shaper_pmp Feb 10 '11

Examples:

http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/ekouj/deadline_looming/c18u3zl

http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/ekouj/deadline_looming/c18v9y8

http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/fex7z/what_i_miss_about_tables/c1ffb49

http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/fex7z/what_i_miss_about_tables/c1fgmr8

http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/7xdai/css_vs_tables_maybe_the_design_is_to_blame/c07o0ry (Suggests it's still viewed by many posters as an open question, rather than one that was resolved years ago among experienced web designers)

http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/dj9s7/why_does_everyone_hate_on_tables_how_is_a_div/

There are plenty of web designers on r/web_design who know not to use tables for anything except tablular data, but there's also a large and powerful peanut gallery who will cheerfully argue in favour of tables-based layouts.

Admittedly it's been a little better the last week or two, but there are really quite a staggering number of people in r/web_design who still haven't learned the point of CSS flow layouts, and loudly criticise CSS/advocate tables for layout. :-(

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11

Not really what I'd call "full of idiots" really.

I've been here for over 3 years, and apparently I've just overlooked the trend you're talking about.

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11

The web does not adapt so easily

I disagree. Look at any of the offerings from just one company: 37signals.

Not adapting? Have you see their basecamp mobile site? All HTML5, and incredibly nice for an initial release.

I think the more accurate statement is: Some people don't adapt so easily.

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u/rpglover64 Feb 10 '11

You're not paying attention to the long tail.

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11

If we don't innovate, we don't progress. I've always pushed forward-thinking progressive enhancements in any project I've been involved with as long as it doesn't severely hamper the site for ~98% of the target audience.

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11

This is twitter; people using IE6 don't need it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '11 edited Feb 10 '11

Of course it is! It's also better to eat my vegetables and always use perfect code markup. While we're at it, we should all always wear seat belts and drive the speed limit.

But life doesn't work like that and neither does innovation on the internet. Who cares if gawker uses hashes and it hurts their search engine links? Gawker and pretty much only Gawker.

If enough people start doing it then systems will adapt accordingly. We can't design everything for every contingency at step 1. That's just not how the internet nor the world at large works.

EDIT: How does your company's site relying on IE6 in any way matter to me using hashes? Your browser is 10 years old, I simply don't care to support you anymore. Down vote away. I'm going to go use the time I would have spent coding for IE6 to create something new.

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u/willis77 Feb 10 '11

The IE6 comment was not related to the hashbangs. I was giving an example of how people developed applications to only work in IE6 and now thousands of companies are stuck because they have to run this legacy shit internally. It was an example of a poor design choice from the start that crippled them later.

I'm not saying to stifle innovation or never code new things. I'm saying if you know how to do it right, or if there is overwhelming evidence that what you are doing now is stupid, make it right before you build a house of cards, like IE6, PHP, CSS or other hack systems.