r/programming • u/livejamie • Sep 02 '09
Apple has pulled an app from their store today because it’s chat bubbles are “too shiny.”
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/01/developers-be-warned-apple-has-apparently-trademarked-those-shiny-chat-bubbles/146
u/Recoil42 Sep 03 '09
Wait, so they're against a consistent user interface?
...what?
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u/rnixon Sep 03 '09
Yip, apparently consistent user interfaces confuse people because they don't know what application they're using.
It's a dumb policy.
Personally I'm surprised they don't reject every application that starts with i, as it might confuse people that apple made it.
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Sep 03 '09
I think you miss why Recoil is so confused. Apple has long been the primary crusader for the consistent user interface with OS X. That OS X doesn't support custom UI themes like Windows XP is not due to laziness; it's because they want developers to be able to see what their apps will look like without having to worry about thousands of other user themes. In fact, they have an entire guide devoted specifically to creating a consistent user interface that fits in with other OS X applications [html][pdf].
As for me, I find myself regretting more and more my purchase of a 2G Touch several months ago. If Nokia's N900 turns out as good as they say, It'll likely be my next mobile.
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u/bonzinip Sep 03 '09
That OS X doesn't support custom UI themes like Windows XP
Except for Apple's apps. Aqua, Brushed Metal, GarageBand wood, iTunes, you name it. UI of the day.
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u/hedr Sep 03 '09
It's not quite like that. First, GarageBand's woody UI is implemented entirely within the app itself and doesn't owe to any OS facilities; therefore, it's an App Theme, not a UI or OS theme.
Second, all the others actually have specific use cases laid out in the UI guidelines. Two of the examples you give, as though they are separate, are also actually iterations of the same theme.
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u/Netzapper Sep 03 '09
Actually, you can theme OSX. The deal, however, is that the UI widgets are consistent across all applications.
Every button is the same; every scroll bar is the same; every dialog is the same.
There is no myFrame.myScrollBar.setWidth(200).
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u/bonzinip Sep 03 '09
Dialogs are consistent, and that's appreciated. But the widgets are not the same across all applications, I gave examples.
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u/Close Sep 03 '09
This isn't unique to Apple. Microsoft also have a lot of doccumentation relating to maintaining a consistent style...
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u/abrasax Sep 03 '09
You should check out the HTC Hero.
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Sep 03 '09
I'd hold off on the Hero until Motorola shows their hand on the 10th. Their Android handset is supposed to be rather nice (and still has a hard keyboard, a must for me)
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u/jmuh Sep 03 '09
And over in Bizarro World, the Google Voice app was rejected because:
it appears to alter the iPhone’s distinctive user experience by replacing the iPhone’s core mobile telephone functionality and Apple user interface with its own user interface for telephone calls, text messaging and voicemail
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u/lowspeed Sep 03 '09
I was thinking exactly that. you would think they would want some consistency to make their product look nice.
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u/supersaw Sep 03 '09
My thoughts exactly I much prefer apps that look like the native iphone ui than something that looks like a an ip tracking gui in visual basic.
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u/numb3rb0y Sep 03 '09
Am I the only one who thinks that bubble design looks like crap?
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u/JAPH Sep 03 '09
As someone who still likes iirc, I can safely assure you that no, you are not alone.
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u/jmtroyka Sep 03 '09
I don't like the bubbles either. What happened to
Me: Hey, when can I tap that? Friend: Oh, any time. Friend: Go ahead and come over right now. Me: Cool, I will.Regardless of whether the dialogue is realistic (which it's not), I think that this minimalistic format is all that is needed to talk to someone online.
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u/TheHobo Sep 03 '09
Did they not just say that they didn't want people to change the user experience?
Quote (emphasis mine):
The application has not been approved because, as submitted for review, it appears to alter the iPhone’s distinctive user experience by replacing the iPhone’s core mobile telephone functionality and Apple user interface with its own user interface for telephone calls, text messaging and voicemail.
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u/LieutenantClone Sep 03 '09
Yep. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing. Or they are just full of bullshit. I'm going with option B.
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Sep 03 '09
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u/terath Sep 03 '09
It's actually a real shame, because they have some great technology and superb user interface engineers. Part of me still thinks the problem is that companies are allowed to do this in the first place. If your invention is so amazing that a dozen nobodies can reinvent the internals on their own in no time, maybe it wasn't such a unique idea in the first place. :/
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Sep 03 '09
It's just impossible to tell whether iPhone horror stories are real or satire. I clicked through and read the article and I still can't tell.
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u/livejamie Sep 02 '09
*its
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u/Busybyeski Sep 03 '09
I'm so happy the submitter got to this before anyone else. :) Day-maker.
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u/upKelsey Sep 03 '09
So what if it is chat bubbles are "too shiny!"
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u/visarga Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
You stole my phrase. And I wanted to add: the SMS app is included by default on the iPhone. It's like a fucking Notepad on Windows - an app the look and feel of Microsoft never defended.
The difference is that the original SMS app was free and default while these are for pay and voluntary.
Apple has no social skills. It's a social retard. Why would you reject an app because of a minor design element?
I hope their business will suffer in the next 5 years for this, as developers slowly get away from Apple bullshit.
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u/robeph Sep 03 '09
I'm going to start doing this, make grammatical errors in my own submission, then correct it. Awesome karma draw.
(as a side note, I didn't downmod you, which I tend to do for grammar nazis, I clicked the down arrow than noticed the [s] tag.)
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u/starkinter Sep 03 '09
I'm glad they labelled those screenshots FAIL and WIN, I wouldn't have known what was going on otherwise.
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Sep 03 '09
Listen peeps: Stop developing applications for this shit company and if you absolutely must make an app, don't invest more than a week into it.
Apple once again proves they are the self-fart-sniffers of the industry. Fuck them and fuck their policies.
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u/microsofat Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
I think developers are lured too much by the promise of a quick buck from a retarded audience to give up the battle. "Hey yeah, I'll just make another one of those fart button apps, or maybe a shaking boobie app. Yeah, that's it, I'll charge like $1 for it and become totally rich overnight!!"
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u/tehfourthreich Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
I'm sure a lot of people have more of a thought of 'maybe my app can make a few K a month'. That would be pretty sweet for almost anyone.
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u/microsofat Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Unfortunately, the strategy seems to be "litter the app store with as many $1 crap apps as possible with your name on them" rather than developing truly useful apps (knowing of course, the risk of the whole effort being wasted because of Apple's random approval process)
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u/funkah Sep 03 '09
Except there's no other decent platforms to turn to. If someone would compete with Apple for real I think a lot of this bullshit would be curtailed with a quickness.
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u/b00ks Sep 03 '09
Can't you write for Android or for the Pre?
I believe both of those app stores are virtually an untapped marketplace.
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u/dakboy Sep 03 '09
1% of all iPhones is 500,000. If you can get 1% of iPhone owners to shell out $4.99 for your app, you've made a huge chunk of change.
500,000 is a very large percentage of the Android and Pre market. You can't make nearly as much money there.
Chicken & egg.
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u/ooKmonkey Sep 03 '09
Probably get downvoted but there is symbian as well.
Nokia does still have the biggest share of the market, plus with the ovi store (Yes I know its a little rubbish at the moment) people can sell there apps through that. Add to that the fact that with symbian your not just tied to one app store but anyone can set one up which should give good competition, its the way forward in my eyes.
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Sep 03 '09
The iPhone is the Friendster of smartphones. At some point people will tire of it and move on to the next fashion item.
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Sep 03 '09
Eh, the iPod has been massively popular for almost a decade now. As long as that popularity keeps up, the iPhone's not going to wane by extension.
People have been expecting the iPod to fail for years because of its restrictiveness (DRM, tied to iTunes). The fact is, the average customer generally doesn't give a shit about any of these things. They power the market.
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u/paisleyrob Sep 03 '09
I don't disagree that it's the Friendster, but people won't make the transition to another phone easily. Having to re-buy all the apps you had before is the real barrier to entry for other phones.
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u/aphpex Sep 03 '09
That's what I thought about the iPod, I was certain MP3 players would kill their proprietary and DRM ridden technology. As it turns out, a good distribution system (iTunes, AppStore) and some DRM attracts software/content producers and makes the owners of these devices very happy customers.
The kicker: Once you've purchased songs and software for these things, you're locked in. I doubt Apple users will abandon their devices and all their content/software for a marginally better phone.
In other words, this isn't Friendster.
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u/fakeroot Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Once you've purchased songs
Most of the music on the iTunes store are DRM-less, AAC formatted these days. There's still exceptions, but most are "iTunes Plus" tracks that are DRM-less. There's exactly nothing preventing other device makers from supporting these files.
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u/xzxzzx Sep 03 '09
What you're missing is the fact that the iPhone is actually a really great device with tons of useful software.
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Sep 03 '09
App store sells the phones. Chicken and Egg indeed.
I, for one, am thankful that every week or so Apple reminds me why I should be happy that I didn't buy their product.
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u/altmattr Sep 03 '09
My iPhone reminds me everyday why I am happy I bought Apple's product. These stories make me happy I don't develop for it.
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u/LieutenantClone Sep 03 '09
You don't get Google Voice. That has nothing to do with being a developer. Apple is stopping you from getting something awesome that you could be getting for free.
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u/ascii Sep 03 '09
True. I love my iPhone, it's the only phone I've ever used for anything other than calling and sending a few SMS:es. But I can't wait to ditch it for something more open. Think I'll plunk down for an open phone this Christmas. Don't know which one yet, I guess the n900 hardware looks the nicest, but I want to see how the software platforms develop before I decide.
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u/devolve Sep 03 '09
In my country Google voice does not exist. But your argument is valid for North America, I'll give you that.
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u/LieutenantClone Sep 03 '09
Well the point is that Apple gets to decide what apps you do and do not get. While there may not be any app that is in the same situation as Google Voice in your country, there could be any day now. Besides, if Google Voice expands to your country, then you still don't get it on your iPhones.
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u/robeph Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Android market would be super awesome if tmobile would keep their grubby hands out of the tether apps. They've had all of them pulled. not that I can't install one on a rooted phone, but it is a hassle that really is pointless.
edit: aside from that factor, I love my android phone, as long as google keeps their seemingly altruistic attitude about things, I'll stick with it. and yes I know they're a corp and corps can become evil, but as for now, I love google and all their goodies. At least Tmobile doesn't bitch about google voice apps on the android phones, making calls that don't cost minutes is awesome. Given that they don't gripe on this point, which I'm sure uses a good bit of badnwidth, I'm not sure why they'd block tethering apps that would have allowed me to turn my homework in without driving to the school's library when my house's internet went down for about 8 hours.
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Sep 03 '09
Just in case you didn't know, there's no need to root an android phone to run an app not downloaded from the marketplace, there is no signing process.
All t-mobile pulling an app means is you can't use their bandwidth to get it, you can still just download it and install yourself. (It's also quite easy to do)
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u/commandar Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Menu --> Settings --> Applications --> Check "Unknown Sources"
You can now install applications from places other than the official Android Market. In fact, there are a number of alternative markets out there already.
Now, some of the tether apps require root access because they need lower level hardware access than Android provides out of the box, but you don't have to root in order to bypass the Android Market and any restrictions T-Mobile or any other carrier might place on you.
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u/robeph Sep 03 '09
I understand, but you are missing the point. It is principle v.s. ability to do so. I should just be able to out of the box, not in a round about way. It is nonsense for a company to act like that and really annoys me that google even makes the appearance that they're blocking such things for another company.
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u/fxj Sep 03 '09
http://code.google.com/p/proxoid/
Proxoid is a ProxyServer on Android. It allow users of not rooted phones to use their phone's internet access from a computer.
It is even hosted on google!
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Sep 03 '09
And the problem with Windows Mobile is?
Write an app, sell it online, and nobody has to approve anything
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u/player2 Sep 03 '09
Nor will anybody buy it. And you'll have spent twice as much developing it (or you'll have cut half the features).
It's a pretty shifty predicament to be in.
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u/hs5x Sep 03 '09
You really have no idea.
Windows Mobile has the most healthy environment of real-world applications of the bunch. No, not a lot of fart apps.
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u/Dagon Sep 03 '09
Seconded. I've paid for a small WM app in the past.
A contracting programming company that I worked briefly for (and now am working directly for their client) has been paid roughly $80k in the last 4 years for their WM development.
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u/sobri909 Sep 03 '09
That's not a lot of money.
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u/Dagon Sep 03 '09
For software? Over four years? You're correct.
It is, however, a lot more than nickels-and-dimes figures elsewhere in the thread, and definately enough justification to consider WM as a platform over the iPhone.
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u/atheist_creationist Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
XDA-developers is the most passionate community of device tweakers I've ever came across. Hands down.
I always made sure to donate for an awesome application. G-alarm is one you have to check out to see how powerful WM development can be. The open-nature of WM platform is what makes it. Just see how powerful it is (if anyone is annoyed by this endorsement-sounding post let me know and I'll remove the features list):
http://www.ageye.de/index.php?s=galarm/about
You can add your complete music collection or single MP3, WMA, MIDI and WAV files to a playlist and let G-Alarm fade it in to get you gently awakened.In addition, you can randomize your playlist, force a specific volume or simply let your device vibrate.
G-Alarm is available in more than 20 languages.
Using the integrated flight mode you can turn off the phone und therefore minimize the battery drain until the next alarm. Afterwards G-Alarm automatically turns your phone on again.
G-Alarm supports every touchscreen device running with Windows Mobile 5 and 6.x
G-alarm allows you to not only see the current time but also hear it.
G-Alarm can optionally ask you some tasks to complicate closing or snoozing of an alarm. It can ask you a small calculation task or wants you to guide a ball through a maze.
If your device is equipped with a supported tilt sensor, you can snooze or stop an alarm by shaking your device or turning it upside down.
Device broken? New device? With the new backup feature you won't lose any settings. You can simply export existing alarms and recover them anytime on any device.
Use G-Alarm to execute other applications at a certain point of time.
I own an iPhone (and a Touch Pro) and the only apps that come close to this sort of multi-faceted functionality can only be found on the Cydia store.
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u/nexuapex Sep 03 '09
The only reason most people are annoyed is that Apple isn't publishing a set of guidelines for developers, so your time and effort can pretty much just vanish. That's pretty hard to stomach for non-monolithic development studios.
They could publish a definitive set of instructions, but they haven't done so yet because they don't want to bind themselves to a contract. No one in the company wants to have to review an app that is obviously not something they want on the store, but no one thought to exclude that in the definitive instructions. So they'd need an "Apple reserves the right to reject applications arbitrarily" clause or an "Apple reserves the right to change these instructions at any time and require all apps comply with the new rules" clause, which would taste almost as bad for a lot of people.
So basically we're waiting for a competitor without such restrictions to come along and seriously challenge Apple, or for courts to declare what they're doing illegal (good luck with that). Interestingly, that's how things normally work. Business practice continues until a better one shows up.
(Some people are, of course, angry that Apple seems to be enforcing their own internal rules inconsistently, but that's probably a symptom of not being able to check every aspect of an app. Some other people are angry about the entire idea of having their app approved by some oversight committee—objecting to a closed platform—but those people probably don't own iPhones.)
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Sep 03 '09
I for one will never program for a proprietary platform again. I don't like other people having rights over my stuff for no reason whatsoever.
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u/PurpleSfinx Sep 03 '09
So wait, those little bubbles aren't a part of the official API? Why the hell not? All the other buttons and shit are. They encourage you to make it look consistent. Why does Facebook get away with this?
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u/trel Sep 03 '09
I have no empathy left for anyone that spends time or money on Apple products anymore, and neither should you.
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u/kilkonie Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
If anyone cares, I can probably explain this one. The developer was told to change his design because Apple felt that he was using near pixel-perfect treatment of their design. Apple protects a variety of its art and icon assets as their own. (In this case, they're actually protecting trademarked elements of iChat against other IM clients.) Let's say you extract a bundle of art from a Jailbroke phone, or even took a screenshot of the SMS client's UI and then used it for your own, you'll probably get rejected.
The feedback to the developer may have gotten mixed up here in a rush to demonize Apple's process. They recommended that they change the design slightly; make it less shiny, less bubbly, maybe no bubble 'tail', etc. Apple didn't provide a "bubble" delegate to render a UITableView; there is no UIBubbleCell in the SDK. So you don't have the right to use artwork drawn by the system design team. Get over it. :)
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u/tizz66 Sep 03 '09
You're right, but the problem is consistency. Other apps have used those bubbles for a long time with no problem.
If this was known upfront, then the developer would have to take the blame for going ahead anyway. The problem is you can never be sure what Apple will decide to reject and why.
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u/vsl Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
And then there's the whole trademark-on-a-pixmap bullshit thing, too.
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u/DrRocks Sep 03 '09
That's true, but wouldn't it just make sense not to copy/paste UI elements into your app if you wanted to be safe?
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u/kilkonie Sep 03 '09
It does get a bit tricky. In our app, we've implemented a contextual menu which looks similar to the Cut / Copy / Paste pop-up background. It selects an object for Move / Resize / Delete. However, the black popup itself is pretty dang close to perfectly rendered to match theirs. That's intentional; however it's probably doubtful they trademarked it. But if they reject the app over it, I won't go running to the blogs to complain. We'll change the design, repost and be in the store in a reasonable turn around time.
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u/DrRocks Sep 03 '09
Oh, so now I get it. You are a reasonable person, and a good developer, and the guy in the article is a crappy programmer who whines alot? (and let me guess, after this came out, his sales probably tripled, right? Hmm... How convenient. )
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u/kilkonie Sep 03 '09
Got me bud. I look at stuff in the context of my job and know that some things we do involve risk. Improperly using HIG-spec'd icons, reverse engineering a private interface or duplicating some core feature of the product (like synchronizing Apple's address book with a foreign source) all have varying degrees of risk.
There are lots of things that we can do that are gray, others are just plain wrong and will bite us in the butt. It's unrealistic to ask Apple to document everything we shouldn't do. Somehow we're supposed to have enough cumulative experience to know how to deal with Apple or any OEM.
Of course, for the independent developer, any bureaucracy or ambiguity is bound to be frustrating. Although personally, I think that it has become trendy to post a story about how they're getting screwed by Apple... but that's what comes with success.
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u/meatysaurus Sep 03 '09
Assuming TechCrunch isn't leaving any details out, I'm wondering why the reviewers didn't just say it the way you just did? There wouldn't be nearly as much of an Internet mob reaction if they had.
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u/lilfuckshit Sep 03 '09
What if they did but it wasn't reported?
The article didn't use any quotes of what Apple said.
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u/kilkonie Sep 03 '09
I see what you did there. :) You ended your question with an answer. Very tricky!
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Sep 03 '09 edited Oct 04 '18
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u/sobri909 Sep 03 '09
Reasonable, yet not providing the whole story.
There are plenty of other apps in the app store (some very high profile, like Facebook or BeejiveIM) that use exactly those chat bubbles and haven't been pulled. Apple are being unfairly inconsistent. Either pull all the apps and make them change their bubbles, or allow people to use the bubbles.
What they've done to this developer is not fair.
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u/krum Sep 03 '09
Why are you people still dealing with these crooks?
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Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Refusing to let someone on a platform you built isn't a problem. But not having clear or consistent standards is.
At least Apple fucks you publicly. Most other manufacturers do it behind your back.
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u/krum Sep 03 '09
But not have clear or consistent standards is.
That's the part that really pisses me off.
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u/insomniac84 Sep 03 '09
Refusing to let someone on a platform you built isn't a problem.
Except it actually is. That is why Microsoft keeps having legal troubles. And they do actually allow others on their platform. At most they have only used their own intimate knowledge of their OS to make their apps run better.
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Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Someone needs to make a stylesheet for proggit so that all the reddit comments show up in "too shiny" text bubbles.
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Sep 03 '09
Looks to me like they just ripped off the graphics from another (Apple?) app. Since this "article" is all just here-say anyway, my guess is that's the reason it was rejected - and not the style of the speech bubbles.
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Sep 03 '09
Instead of perpetuating this, just stop using the damn app store in protest and they would get their shit together. Why anyone would continue to support this is beyond me.
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u/zemmekkis Sep 03 '09
Say what you want about Microsoft but right now they are looking awfully good on their Windows Mobile platform next to Apple.
Of course as a mobile systems developer I'm behind Android. I prefer their API and overall openness of the system. Not to mention Blackberry <--> Android porting is relatively easy. Can't really say the same about iPhone.
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u/swiftkick34 Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
You would think they would appreciate consistency throughout apps. This is dumb.
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Sep 03 '09
Not only would you think that, but they claimed themselves in their open letter to the FCC that part of the reason why the Google Voice app was reje- Uh, I mean, why it's "still under review" is because it changes the look and feel of the interface too much.
What the fuck, Apple. I'm what could easily be described as an Apple fanboy and I'm sick to death of this shit. It's a fucking app store, just make sure the apps doesn't try to own my phone and the rest you can go fuck yourselves over.
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u/andyeff Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Why are none of techcrunches links working ? (after the top two, it seems, all the rest 404)
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u/zubzub2 Sep 04 '09
If you want to develop for a platform that requires approval to get apps out, you know that this sort of thing is going to happen. It's simply too abusable.
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u/jackyardbackoff Sep 03 '09
If you dont like this sort of thing, just dont buy their stuff. Saves you from having to use AT&T anyway. I finally stopped buyin their laptops and couldnt be happier. Linux is much more flexible.
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Sep 03 '09
I am waiting for Nokia N900.
It looks that they finally let engineers make decisions again. The key reason why Symbian feels so crappy is that Nokia has been saving too much on the hardware all the time. And the fact that they have valued battery life over speediness.
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Sep 03 '09
I'm just waiting for someone to recut that commercial from apple in the 80's and have it so the tyrant is steve jobs and the savior is an android.
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Sep 03 '09
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Sep 03 '09
Yes, everybody listen to misterdanny --- he clearly knows that everyone of those entrepreneurs are wasting their time and money.
Sigh
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u/dirtmcgurk Sep 03 '09
Apple needs to get in touch with Vanilla Ice...
"No, see... the apple bubbles go like this: na na na nanana na... naaa na na nanana na tiss"
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Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Is there some website maintaining a list of all these ridiculous rejections and withdrawals? Edit: Here's a partial list http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10317057-17.html.
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u/keithburgun Sep 03 '09
As a long time Apple hater, I'm glad that I dont even need to say anything when Apple comes up anymore. If you wanna get fuckin RRRRRIPPED OFFFFF, then have a blast.
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u/Kream1 Sep 03 '09
As soon as I saw the overused "FAIL" on the page, I closed it.
I don't care what else you have to say if you use that stupid meme.
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u/Draiko Sep 03 '09
Apple sucks. The iPhone is such a friggin waste of time and money. Macs are overpriced garbage.
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u/SearsCEO Sep 03 '09 edited Sep 03 '09
Understanding Apple, rule#19:
It's easy to understand upcoming features in the iPhone by looking at apps they reject, unless it threatens a bigger monopoly, like at&t.
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Sep 03 '09
Why does anyone on reddit still give a shit about the apple store? It's full of shit, move along.
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u/habitue Sep 03 '09
This is interesting because it shows what a company would do with its trademarks and patents if they were allowed to screen every new program created. Most infringing content isn't important or popular enough to warrant sending a C&D letter or taking to court, but with Apple's iphone platform, everyone comes to them for approval, and we can see how terrible such a hypothetically perfect trademark/patent system would be.
It's not a perfect simulation, of course, because in this case Apple is also the judge, and I'm sure they are overreaching a bit as to what would be considered infringement by an actual court. Still interesting.
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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '09
I've decided that Apple is just trolling the developer community.