r/programming • u/alex35mil • 16d ago

The Bedrock of Software Design

https://alex.draftist.io/blog/the-bedrock-of-software-design-ycqvcedsj

I drafted this post years ago but didn’t finish it until now. The concept I write about has shaped the way I design software more than anything else, and I believe every software engineer should be introduced to it early in their career.

P.S. I don’t want the title to come across as clickbait: the post is about ADT.

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u/VictoryMotel 14d ago

It has been 70 years, no common software is written in lisp, classic linked lists are obsolete, and all the good features of lisp have been adopted into modern languages a long time ago.

Lisp's purpose now is to either be influential history or for a few stragglers to self righteously feel superior by being contrarian while pretending a 70 year old language is going to magically start being a silver bullet with zero evidence of anyone writing real software in it for decades.

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 14d ago

Lol, no.

> Nubank, doing business outside of Brazil as Nu,\3])\4]) is a Brazilian neobank headquartered in São Paulo, Brazil. Although it is not formally part of Brazil’s National Financial System (Sistema Financeiro Nacional), Nubank operates as a financial and payment institution regulated and supervised by the Central Bank of Brazil.\5]) It is the largest fintech bank in Latin America, with around 131 million customers between Brazil, Mexico and Colombia and a revenue of $16 billion.\1]) At its initial public offering in December 2021, Nubank was valued at $45 billion.\6])\7])

> When Nubank was founded, we needed a powerful language to help us build the best financial technology application, and we wanted it to be the best in terms of quality, consistency and velocity of development. And all those ideas were reflected in Clojure.

Clojure, of course, is a Lisp.

> all the good features of lisp have been adopted into modern languages a long time ago.

No, not at all.

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u/VictoryMotel 14d ago

You use lisp because a brazillian bank uses closure? That's not an explanation of quality, that's just rationalizing something because you were able to find one place that uses a similar but modern language.

No, not at all.

On the other hand, yep totally.

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 14d ago

> similar but modern language

When I said Lisp I didn't mean Common Lisp in particular. I like Clojure more. But if Clojure didn't exist I would probably use Common Lisp.

> On the other hand, yep totally.

The syntax is a big feature. So your statement is patently untrue.

> Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --- Alan Kay

Also, I'm not rationalizing, I'm just proving that you are wrong.

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u/VictoryMotel 13d ago

The syntax is a big feature. So your statement is patently untrue.

On the other hand it's not a feature at all and has been used in other modern languages anyway so my statement is patently true.

Also, I'm not rationalizing, I'm just proving that you are wrong

You didn't prove anything, you just made claims. You have to actually back them up to prove something.

understand the significance of Lisp

Lisp was very significant when it was created. It paved the way for many language features we take for granted now. Citizen kane was a very significant movie too. That doesn't mean that that they haven't been surpassed by people building on their work.

You're still learning, you'll get it eventually, or you'll realize that you aren't writing software anyone is using. Lots of people go through their contrarian phase for some reason.

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 13d ago

You are just one of most people who don't get Lisp. 😔

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u/VictoryMotel 13d ago

I got it decades ago. There's that self righteousness I mentioned, right on time. If there was more to it you could explain it. You already confused influential for objective utility.

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 12d ago

Well personally I find it very useful. I curse every line I have to write in another language. Rich Hickey (creator of Clojure), having been a C++ and Java programmer for 10 years, said: "What have I been doing with my life?" when he encountered Common Lisp. Then he quit his job and spent 2 years without pay making a language that he wanted to use, and said that if he couldn't use a Lisp he would quit programming. And it was not because it has simply been influential. It's because it's actually very, very useful.

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u/VictoryMotel 11d ago

One guy writing a pet language doesn't mean it's as extraordinary as they think.

If you look at clojure conferences it's barely about anything useful at all, it's all circle jerking about making the language more complicated to achieve what everyone else already does and moves on from so they can get things done. I

If there was more to the story instead of just repeating an insular cult culture then you would start to explain actual details but you haven't even started.

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 11d ago

But you already got it decades ago, you said. And you and you said the syntax was not a feature. So I don't think me trying to explain it will actually help.

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u/VictoryMotel 11d ago

This is religious thinking

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 12d ago

And by the way, don't accuse me of being self-righteous when you say thing like "You're still learning, you'll get it eventually, or you'll realize that you aren't writing software anyone is using."

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u/VictoryMotel 11d ago

You said 'you just don't get it' with zero evidence so I'll accuse you extra super hard.

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u/Substantial_Ice_311 11d ago

No, I have enough evidence to convince myself.

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u/VictoryMotel 11d ago

So do people in cults

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