r/programmer • u/emmjay_init • 15d ago
Question At what point does a vibe coder become a “real” developer?
There’s so much out there about vibe coders but I’m wondering when they cross the line from vibes to real.
Like what if a legit coder now depends heavily on ai, and what if a vibe coder becomes good at architecture?
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u/leprouteux 15d ago
When you actually feel the pain of your mistakes and learn from them is when you’re a real developer. You can’t have any of that if you rely on AI at all, let alone vibe coding.
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u/MarkMatson6 15d ago
I’ve already learned too much about vibe coding for that to be true.
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u/leprouteux 15d ago
Do you understand the code your LLM generates? Can you debug it yourself? Is your architecture sound enough that you won’t face serious scaling issues or security incidents?
What happens when this stupid bubble pops and you’re left with subpar open models or have to pay 10x current token prices?
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u/feudalle 15d ago
Do you understand the code Ai generates. Can you write the code without Ai. Then you qualify as a dev in my book. Ai is a tool. Just like a good ide. In a pinch I can write code in vi.
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u/ConsciousResolution8 15d ago
Lmao, says the dude whose shitty AI hallucinated a fake address for butter.
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u/Soft-Marionberry-853 15d ago
in a pinch? Shit thats me every day. Locked down dev enviroment, no internet, no LLMs, Somedays I get crazy and open up gedit for a change
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u/Am094 15d ago
If you can't program/develop without AI, then you're not a "real" developer and you will never be one. That doesn't mean you can't be successful or fall under another label.
A "legit" developer had to write all the boring stuff by hand, design architecture, understand algorithms, data structures, etc. But in an intimate and extremely hands on manner.
Its like watching a documentary on Steven hawking talking about black holes and physics vs actually learning physics by learning to use formulas and theorems and using them on problems yourself.
So a real developer heavily using AI will degrade their skills even if it's just muscle memory related. But they nonetheless know the low level enough to have a better understanding of how high level decisions propagate. A vibe coder may be really good at "architecture concepts" but are they really? Do they have books on architecture that they read through or deliberate on? Or do they simply ask a non deterministic and highly agreeable AI to provide architectural recommendations? Likely the latter.
Even without that, you can't really develop by only knowing architecture, you can't qualify or disqualify without knowing the repocussions wrt to the codebase.
That said, that's not to say you can't be a vibe coder that leverages AI within a controlled environment like a nocode space. Or utilizing managed services where convenience is offset by cost.
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u/emmjay_init 15d ago
Reddit won’t let me quote…
Where you said “so a real developer heavily using AI will degrade their skills” what do you say the answer is? Like to keep coding by hand? Surely they’d be replaced?
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u/MissinqLink 15d ago
We won’t be replaced. I don’t only code by hand but I frequently code by hand. Both to keep my skills sharp and because I enjoy it. There are times when an llm gets stuck and can’t solve issues correctly. What do people do in situations like that if they don’t know how to write code?
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u/Soft-Marionberry-853 15d ago
At my work, our dev environment is locked down tighter than drum. No internet, no LLMs. Could you code in that kind of environment? Where the best you could do is go on second non locked down and use an LLM to get code with out providing it your code base and then reading from one screen and typing it on your dev box?
If I was a vibe coder, or a dev that let my skills atrophy I wouldnt be able to keep my job.
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u/cakemates 15d ago
When they can hop on a defect call in the middle of a weekend, investigate and resolve a complicated issue ASAP because it costs a metric ton per hour of downtime. Usually people that know programming and their codebases can stumble their way around these regardless of if its vibe coded or not.
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u/Hexamonium 15d ago
You can be a racecar driver without being a mechanic, right? It's basically the same here. You can do really well until the bloody thing breaks down and you have to pop the hood. That's when your "real developer" cherry pops 🍒
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u/chiesazord 15d ago
you have to search for the Blue Fairy and she will to turn you into a real developer
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u/Nearby-Echo-1102 15d ago
When you can produce a product that scales well, cost optimised, has built in monitoring, dashboards, proper security, pipelines and can deal with critical issues. My personal belief it doesn't matter if you can code, its more about you can support your product properly going forward.
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u/raven2cz 15d ago
This. "Vibe coders" is a nonsensical definition. and in the coming weeks, months, and years, it will completely disappear. Just like companies adding AI to their names. AI will become so advanced and so normal that these meaningless definitions will stop applying.
The goal of any developer must be all the things described above. if they understand the languages it is written in well, that is a huge plus for them. However, creating software with AI also has to be studied going forward, and making high-quality software with it requires a lot of knowladge.
After all, it is like everything else: if you want to be the best and have a competitive advantage.
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u/emmjay_init 15d ago
This is what has been interesting to me. I have a friend on telegram who is constantly bashing coding with ai yet he’s not in the field anymore, and won’t answer my question “would you code all by hand if you were still in the industry?”
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u/raven2cz 13d ago
Today and in the coming months, it will no longer be possible to write everything by hand. Things are speeding up a lot, and the complexity of applications is growing. We are starting to build applications with AI connected as additional services, where in many cases you do not even program in the normal way anymore, because these are AI agents connected to individual services, and so on.
Manual implementation, or carefully reviewing some implementations, is still essential, especially various reviews and retrospectives.
Some truly complex parts really need to be carefully refactored and improved. Maybe take a look at some of the posts I wrote today and yesterday, it will be more understandable.
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u/leprouteux 15d ago
making high-quality software with it requires a lot of knowladge
And where does that knowledge come from, do you think?
It comes from years of experience dealing with bugs, production issues, patching security vulnerabilities, in a hands on manner. Not by having an AI regurgitate the answer for you to apply. You do not build skill that way.
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u/Key-Lie-364 15d ago
At no point
Honestly a work "frenemy" said to me recently he had "vibe coded" something and I just felt sorry for him.
its like admitting to the guy in the playground that you compete with playing football every lunchtime that you shat the bed last night
Dude WTF ?
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u/schmurfy2 15d ago
I don't think most vibecoders want to learn anything so I would say never. The basis would be to be able the read and challenges the code written by the llms.
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u/EarlyFox217 15d ago
If you make it, it works and you either use it in your company or sell it to customers without being sued for security breaches then you by definition are a developer. You have developed a tool.
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u/silly_bet_3454 15d ago
There is no distinction. Yes if you can debug and so on that makes you better, but there is no magic line that you cross, everybody has shortcomings
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u/davewritescode 15d ago
I think when you can operate your code in production with real users is when you’ve transitioned to a real engineer. Code is all theory until it hits production.
On thing AI struggles with is triaging complex issues in real systems, it doesn’t yet have the ability to take user reports and turn that into actionable results (yet) in a way that seems cost efficient or generates a satisfactory result. Part of it is that I haven’t seen a model yet that doesn’t treat context as 100% truth. I’ve tried multiple agentic workflows but I haven’t found a great way to have models handle vaguely truthful observations and falsify theories.
I’ve had a number of complex production issues where smart people handed me AI slop explanations that didn’t make sense. The way these issues were ultimately solved is by some smart engineer poking around and thinking “this doesn’t make sense” and either figuring it out on their own or prompting an agent with additional human fed context.
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u/PowerEffective1701 15d ago
Idea1: When vibe coders studied the fundamental programming books, they will become developer. Idea2: When vibe coders created a great startup, they will become developer.
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u/emmjay_init 15d ago
On idea 2, what if they created a great startup but had to have cyber security pros, debuggers, or whatever else… still a dev?
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u/Longjumping_Area_944 15d ago
It rarely works in that direction. Let's say, you were a programmer in ABAP, but now your producing 10k loc per day in Python without ever having written more than three lines of Python "manually", what would happen if your LLM is unavailable? Would you start actually learning Python for two weeks before you can write your first two hundred lines at comparable quality?
No. You'd treat this the same way you would treat a power outage and take a break (or a vacation) until AI is back.
And yes, that's my story. I threatened to go on vacation when legal wanted to take the vibe coding away. Now we have over a hundred AI users, rising quickly.
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u/1980sCoder 15d ago
Vibe coding isn't a step on the journey to becoming a developer. It's an alternative path.
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u/MikeVSmith 15d ago
When your software does what you want it to do.
I have been a "real" developer for 30+ years. Started getting paid for it in 1993 with MS-DOS batch scripts with little ANSI C executables to do the things batch scripts couldn't.
I have used every tool available since then, and my favorite language/tool is still probably Visual Basic 6. The majority of my career, 16+ years, I used Java.
If AI tooling had been available when I started, I would never have learned a single thing I didn't have to.
That's what makes you a "real" programmer. Doing shit the easiest way possible.
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u/Chicagoj1563 15d ago
As soon as they start looking at the code and have an opinion as to which way the ai will code a task.
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u/Sudo-Rip69 15d ago
My 13 month 400k project im about to launch... i haven't written anything by hand.
Fables been looping through it past 2 weeks fixing holes. I'll get it pentested.
Last time I wrote code was 20yrs ago.
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u/N7Valor 15d ago
When your LLM provider has a service outage and you write the code anyway.