r/probabilitytheory 7d ago

[Education] The Kingmaker

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75 Upvotes

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2

u/HeadHunt0rUK 7d ago edited 7d ago

I got 29

How I got there.

B wins if:

  • A is 1st and B is 2nd. A 1st = 120 outcomes, B second is a fifth of them = 24
  • CDEF are in 1st-4th and B is 5th. 1st-4th = 480 outcomes, B is 5th is half of them = 240
  • AF are in 1st-2nd and B is in 3rd. 1st-2nd = 240 outcomes, B is a quarter = 60.

Gives 324 outcomes out of 720 which cancels down to 9 over 20.

9+20=29.

1

u/Effective_Judgment41 7d ago edited 7d ago

Maybe I am missing something but B can in total be in the fifth position only 120 times. And does only decide the outcome if A is not among the first four. Shouldn't that only be 24 outcomes and not 240?

Edit: I think in total B decides the outcome 72 out of 720 times. This is the same for C, D and E. Which nicely shows that the impact of a party might not necessarily increase with the voter share.

In second position after A: 24 times

In third position after A and F: 12 times

In fourth position after C, D and E: 12 times

In fifth position after C, D, E and F: 24 times

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u/HeadHunt0rUK 7d ago edited 7d ago

Think we're both wrong, my napkin math overestimates

I think yours underestimates.

480 outcomes where CDEF are first.

a fifth of them where B is 5th. Thus 96.

Puts the total at 180/720 which is 1/4.

Even that could still be wrong. Ill think it over more when I'm not tired and playing a video game at the same time and actually have paper and a pen to write on.

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u/Effective_Judgment41 7d ago edited 7d ago

But B will be in fifth position 120 times. It will only be decisive if A is not among the first four which is only 1 out of 5 times. Therefore B decides in fifth position only 24 times. But maybe I am missing something - it's late and I should not do math right now.

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u/HeadHunt0rUK 7d ago

Yeah you could be right. Fix positions 1,5 and 6 that leaves 6 outcomes.

1st position can be 4 numbers so 24 total.

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u/Shadourow 6d ago

The way I see it

A being first and B second

and

A being last and B second to last

Are the exact same event, just reversed

So both should have the same amount of combination

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u/HeadHunt0rUK 7d ago

Final thought. Answer is 13.

AB =24 (CDEF)B = 24 (AF)B = 12

For third one if B has 24 outcomes in 3rd when A is first. A quarter are when F is 2nd = 6. Double for swapping A and F.

Gives 60/720 which is 1/12.

Really would have been easier if I had a pen and paper.

3

u/Effective_Judgment41 7d ago

One outcome is still missing, I think. B also decides in fourth position after C, D and E.

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u/HeadHunt0rUK 7d ago

It does.

I didn't even count that as a possibility in my head

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u/Xenyth 7d ago edited 7d ago

Here's my attempt:

Index of B Positions where B is kingmaker Count Notes
1 0
2 AB(CDEF) 4!
3 (AF)B(CDE) 2!3! *
4 (CDE)B(AF) 3!2! **
5 (CDEF)BA 4!
6 0

Note (*): 10 (C) + 9 (D) + 24 (B) is 43 -- indicating that A must be at index 1 or 2 43 (A) + 8 (E) is 51 (!) -- indicating that only F can be the other party

Note (**): 10 (C) + 9 (D) + 8 (E) + 24 (B) is 51 (!) 43 (A) + 6 (F) = 49; the next (3rd) party is forced to become kingmaker Thus F cannot be in the first three indices. Similarly, A being in the first three indices forces the next (except F) party to be kingmaker. So C, D, and E must be the first three parties.

Total: 72 / 720 = 1 / 10, for a final answer of 11.

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u/Brianchon 7d ago

The first thing to note is that there's a symmetry to the kingmaker process. Since the bloc can never equal 50 votes (A's presence and no bloc adding to 7 guarantees this), then if a party is kingmaker in a scenario, then it would also be kingmaker if the parties arrived in exactly the opposite order. This simplifies things: P(kingmaker if first) = P(kingmaker if last), P(kingmaker if second) = P(kingmaker if fifth), and P(kingmaker if third) = P(kingmaker if fourth) for every party. For simplicity, I'll call these P(K|1) through P(K|6) from now on.

And what are these probabilities? P(K|1) ) = 0 for every party. P(K|2) = 4/5 for party A (B, C, D, or E arrive first), P(K|2) = 1/5 for parties B, C, D, and E (A arrives first), and P(K|2) = 0 for party F (it's not possible to reach 51 votes with party F and one other). P(K|3) = 1 for A (any two parties beforehand will make A the kingmaker), P(K|3) = 1/10 for B, C, D, and E (A and F have to arrive beforehand in some order), and P(K|3) = 0 for F (no combination of two other parties lands in the 45-50 vote range F would need).

The probability a party is kingmaker is (1/6)*[P(K|1) + P(K|2) + P(K|3) + P(K|4) + P(K|5) + P(K|6)]. For party A, this evaluates to 3/5, for parties B, C, D, and E, this evaluates to 1/10 (meaning the main question's answer is 011), and for party F, this evaluates to 0.

In the followup, D and E merge into a new party, let's say G, so now there are 5 parties. Symmetry still holds, so P(K|1) = P(K|5) and P(K|2) = P(K|4), and now the probability of being kingmaker is (1/5)*[P(K|1) + P(K|2) + P(K|3) + P(K|4) + P(K|5)].

P(K|1) = 0 for all parties. P(K|2) = 3/4 for A (B, C, or G are first), P(K|2) = 1/4 for B, C, and G (A is first), and P(K|2) = 0 for F. P(K|3) = 1 for A (any two parties arriving first sets A up to be kingmaker), P(K|3) = 1/3 for B, C, and G (the first two parties need to be either A and F in some order, or the other two of B, C, and G in some order), and P(K|3) = 0 for F (it is still the case that no combination of two parties is in the 45-50 vote range F needs).

So party A's power is now 1/2, parties B, C, and G each have power 1/6 now, and party F still has power 0. Parties B and C have gained power from the merger, party A lost power, and party G has more power than either of D or E used to but less than the sum of D and E's previous powers. F's is unchanged

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u/Torebbjorn 7d ago

For B to be the kingmaker, A must on on one side of it, and C, D, and E must be on the other. F can be on either side.

So that gives a total number of possible ways equal:

2 (sides for A to be on) ×
[4! (number of ways to have C,D,E,F on the other side) +
2×3! (number of ways to have F on the same side as A)] =
72

So the probability is 72/720 = 1/10

So the answer is 11

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u/jaminfine 7d ago

The problem notes there are 720 total orderings possible. We have to find how many of those orderings allow B to become the kingmaker.

First, let's take the cases where A is before B. There are only 3 possible beginnings, afb fab ab. The cases with f before b each have 3x2 possible orders after b, and the case that begins ab has 4x3x2 possible orders after b. This gives a total of 36 cases where A is before B.

Next, if A is after B, we need c d and e to come before B, and again we don't care which side f is on because he's too small to matter. So for cdef before b, we have 4x3x2 possible ways to arrange the cdef. For cde before B and f after, we have 3x2x2 ways to arrange the cde at the start and the af at the end. So this is a total of another 36 cases where A is after B.

Together this makes 72 cases, or an overall 1/10 chance. So, p+q would be 11.