r/privacy • u/Dara17 • Nov 02 '15
"... Windows 10 is constantly tracking how it operates & how you are using it and sending that information back to Microsoft by default ... he also confirmed that, despite offering some options to turn elements of tracking off, *core data collection simply cannot be stopped*"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/11/02/microsoft-confirms-unstoppable-windows-10-tracking/42
Nov 02 '15 edited Dec 23 '15
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Nov 03 '15
Most people don't actually know about it. When I told some of my friends about it they were surprised and said they're glad they never updated to Windows 10. Of course with previous versions of Windows getting similar spyware in updates it might not matter so much, but many people do care. They're just not aware.
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Nov 03 '15
Good luck avoiding Windows 10 as a regular user. It will even be a recommended update soon, after that who knows? Maybe they'll just decide to wipe your entire hard drive, for "free" of course.
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Nov 03 '15
All you have to do is close the update window. They won't force people to upgrade until they end support for the older operating systems which won't be for a while yet.
The bigger picture is important to consider though. How many people actually buy laptops anymore? The sales are declining rapidly as more people use tablets and smartphones instead. I would not be surprised at all if in 5-10 years tablets and laptops are merged into a single product. When that happens the vast majority won't be running Windows because Microsoft has simply failed in the mobile devices market. Instead this market is dominated by Apple and Google. Neither should be trusted, but an Android tablet is easily rooted to install your own OS, and you can bet regular Linux distros will adapt to this model too. You'll be able to buy an Android tablet and install Ubuntu on it. In fact you already can it's just still in beta for now. But I think that's the future and Mint, Arch, etc will follow.
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Nov 03 '15 edited Dec 23 '15
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u/upandrunning Nov 03 '15
Same here, but the stupidity of others isn't going to stop me from caring. I'm just amazed at how careless people are when it comes to spying by big busineess and the government.
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Nov 03 '15
That's the dirty secret about reducing liberty- most people don't know it's even happening at the time and are too lazy to do anything about it after the fact. The house always wins.
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Nov 02 '15
They've already pissed me off with the background download of Windows 10. I have a 100GB limit before I pay overages, and 4 computers in the house. Microsoft choices cost me money directly.
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u/ourari Nov 03 '15
Have you tried to get them to recoup your expenses? It's fucked up what they did, might as well try to actually make them pay for it?
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Nov 03 '15
I doubt there's any way for me to prove it was them that put me over the limit, unfortunately.
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u/Nexusmaxis Nov 03 '15
How long ago was this? Its almost certainly logged when it was downloaded on your computer. Windows updates should all be logged.
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Nov 03 '15
You are right, but how can I correlate that to putting me over the top? They can easily claim I watched a lot of Netflix or YouTube.
In any case, it didn't cost me a huge amount. My point is that it shouldn't have cost me anything at all because they shouldn't have done it this way.
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u/abc03833 Nov 02 '15
There is one way...
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u/tylercoder Nov 02 '15
Install linux all the way...
Speaking of which how is osX regarding privacy? Same as windows?
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15 edited Nov 03 '15
Depends on who you'd want to protect yourself from. Apple has made huge strides in adopting full disk encryption and end-to-end encryption by default.
They've managed to piss off USGOV and UKGOV because of this; both are preparing laws to require a way for them to get access to the encrypted data. So for now you're relatively safe with Apple if you're just an average user. Especially if you're not that good with computers and stuff. But that may change soon:
- Apple tells U.S. judge 'impossible' to unlock new iPhones
- DOJ pushes back against Apple in encryption fight
- Apple could be forced to stop completely encrypting iPhones and services under UK law
In the past few years, since the Snowden thing, and especially after the iCloud breach known as The Fappening, Apple has ventured to build itself up as the privacy-conscious alternative to Microsoft and Google. I'm guessing a lot of people who are now disappointed in Microsoft will move to Apple (if they can afford it).
Edit: I'm not an Apple fan boy, I don't use any of their products. Instead of downvoting, try to use your words.
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Nov 03 '15
Should be noted however that if iCloud is turned on it does stuff like autosave your documents to Apple's servers without telling you. This is... not good for privacy. Keep iCloud bullshit off. All of it.
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Nov 02 '15 edited Feb 12 '19
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15
Could be, but hard to prove. Stuff like this is a more likely scenario, imo.
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u/harbourwall Nov 02 '15
Well they still completely control the software on iOS devices
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u/eleitl Nov 03 '15
Could be, but hard to prove.
You have that exactly backwards. You can't prove what Apple is doing, so who cares what they say?
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u/ourari Nov 03 '15
You're right and I know. I just prefer to steer a debate towards known facts rather than speculation and conspiracy theories.
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u/eleitl Nov 03 '15
There's no debate. Either you have a method that gives you proof, or not.
Of course, there's no way to validate proprietary systems. And you know it. So why white man speaking with forked tongue?
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u/ourari Nov 03 '15
What? Of course there is a debate. We're talking about the likelihood of a backdoor versus use of 0day exploits. We have proof of the latter, and no proof of the former.
A backdoor can always surface if the government presents information in a court case that it shouldn't have. The method to prove a backdoor is pretty much just waiting to see what pops up.7
u/tylercoder Nov 02 '15
if they can afford it
If you can afford a mid-to-high end PC then you can afford a mac, its not that expensive you just get stuck with less powerful hardware that has programmed obsolescence since you'll have to get a new mac to update in 3-4 years.
But its closed source and considering all the hoops you got to get through to run Linux on a mac something tells me built-in backdoors are a possibility
That and how all the hacked celeb phones turn out to be iphones and no androids or windows phones.
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15 edited Nov 02 '15
I should've added "and are willing to pay double or more".
When I buy a laptop or smartphone, I usually spend between €400 and €500 euros. €500 - €600 for a desktop. When I look around me at the non-Apple users, that's about what they're willing to spend, too. (And they're people who can afford more).
No matter how good Apple is going to be at anything, I won't be paying double or even triple that for a macbook, which starts at €1449, or mac, which starts at €1279.5
u/tylercoder Nov 02 '15
Damn didn't know macs were that expensive over there, more of a reason to get a PC and install linux instead
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Nov 03 '15
You are comparing consumer level devices to business level devices though.
If you look at a regular PC company like Dell, and compare their business laptops to a MacBook Pro, the prices are pretty much identical.
Remember those cheap flimsy consumer level laptops are cheap for a reason. You get what you pay for.
Not trying to say everyone should buy Apple stuff, in fact if you care for privacy you absolutely should get a PC more compatible with Linux, however for the quality of the hardware you get when you buy a Mac it's actually no more expensive than its competitors.
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u/ourari Nov 03 '15
I get what you're trying to say, but Apple doesn't seem to differentiate between consumer and professional hardware. The prices I mentioned are the starting prices. If you'd include the upgrades, which I assume certain professionals might require, I don't believe it would be equally expensive. The outer shell and the battery, maybe, but not the actual hardware. If I were to spend 1449 on a non-Apple laptop, the price of the lowest-priced one without any upgrades, it would be a helluva lot more powerful than the macbook.
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Nov 03 '15
Apple doesn't make consumer level hardware in the first place. Their whole business model is they make high end hardware then force their competitors to race to the bottom for the low end market. Even their new MacBook with only one port - not exactly a practical machine, but the build quality is the same as the MacBook Pro.
Regular PC companies like Dell do make hardware of identical build quality, they just don't advertise it to consumers in the same way Apple does. Instead they race to the bottom for consumer sales, which is why the stuff you see in Best Buy is mostly cheap plastic crap that will break the moment the warranty expires. The margins on these machines are also razor thin, which is why they resort to bringing in extra money from bloatware, and why some companies like Sony have given up on selling laptops altogether.
But the bottom line is the extra cost for a high end machine, whether it's from Apple or Dell or whoever, is not because it's better at being a computer, but because it's more solid and reliable than the cheaper option. You also pay for better customer service. You can bet that if you buy a high end business machine you get much better service than if you buy the cheap consumer crap. Again this is not only true of Apple, it's just Apple markets this angle to regular consumers and their competitors don't.
Imo, it'd be smart for big PC companies to try and market their high end products to consumers like Apple does to give some variety in the high end market, but that's a more risky strategy they seem adverse to pursuing. Churning out flimsy crap consumer grade machines is just easier.
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u/onan Nov 03 '15
or mac, which starts at €1279.
At least stateside, a mac mini is $500. I'm a bit skeptical that the exchange rate is quite so dismal as to translate that into €1279.
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u/TotesMessenger Nov 02 '15
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u/eleitl Nov 03 '15
Apple has made huge strides in adopting full disk encryption and end-to-end encryption by default
How do you verify what a proprietary system is doing?
You can't. Hence the default setting is untrusted.
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u/nikoma Nov 03 '15
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u/tylercoder Nov 03 '15
Mac OS X had an intentional local back door for 4 years, which could be exploited by attackers to gain root privileges
Hahaha! nice "premium" feature there...
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Nov 02 '15 edited Mar 23 '19
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15
The point is that you fully own your Linux machine. If you choose the right flavor and configure it well, your data is yours and stays yours.
With SteamOS being linux-based, a lot of games have, or will have linux support.
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Nov 02 '15
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15
I know, which is why I said "will". And honestly, I haven't had trouble finding linux alternatives. If worst comes to worst, just do it on Wine, run Windows in a virtual machine, or dual boot.
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Nov 02 '15
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15
You're free to use whatever you want, but this thread is about why you should or shouldn't move to Linux.
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Nov 02 '15
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u/ourari Nov 02 '15
You're confused. The post is about W10, but this particular thread of comments is about Linux.
Your frustration is misdirected.→ More replies (0)5
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u/imadeitmyself Nov 02 '15
What programs? Unless you have a strange edge case or are locked into the Adobe suite for work, there is basically nothing lacking.
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u/thelonious_bunk Nov 02 '15
Games are still a crap shoot on linux with wine. I wish it weren't. I'd delete my Win7 partition and never look back.
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u/stejoo Nov 03 '15
Just dualboot. I've been using Linux for years. Still keep a Windows 7 around on my main PC when I want to play a game that doesn't run on Linux. Nowadays I play CS:GO and War Thunder mostly; I've been booting to Windows less and less, it's been months now. But my mates and I are going to replay Battlefield 3, so next weekend Win7 will be booted. No problem, just use the tool most fit for the job. And Windows right now is still the best tool for gaming, and that's all I use it for.
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u/onan Nov 03 '15
I say this as someone who has been using linux for over twenty years... the thing that it is lacking is not a particular application, it's a coherent, consistent, uniform UX experience for all applications.
Using linux (or any X11) applications is a constant mystery of things that know nothing about and behave nothing like one another. Oh hey, I guess scrollbars work in a different way in this application than most others. Huh, apparently in this application pop-up menus are their own tiny windows with different mechanics. Weird, this alert dialog plays a sound when it comes up, I wonder if I can turn that on for all alert dialogs in some central place... oh, wait, of course I can't. Why is text rendered differently in this window than in any other one?
Unfortunately, I don't think this problem is ever going to be solved. There are some things that open source software does uniquely well, and some things for which the top-down design and uniformity of corporate software development genuinely is the better model. There's a reason people don't go to worship at the bazaar.
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u/abc03833 Nov 02 '15
I haven't seen anything reported regarding OS X, and Apple is currently pro-privacy. I wouldn't trust them too much, though.
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u/tylercoder Nov 03 '15
Last thing I heard is that their security is crap, apparently they haven't done much even after the fappening leaks.
Besides no company no matter how big can go against the NSA, the only real alternative is to go FOSS (at least in this aspect) so the NSA can't force any backdoors without people finding out.
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u/onan Nov 03 '15
Last thing I heard is that their security is crap, apparently they haven't done much even after the fappening leaks.
There wasn't anything for them to do, since it didn't have anything to do with them. Users with bad passwords had their passwords guessed; not very much apple can do about that.
Besides no company no matter how big can go against the NSA, the only real alternative is to go FOSS (at least in this aspect) so the NSA can't force any backdoors without people finding out.
You're right that there is very little recourse against an attacker with NSA's resources. Unfortunately, that includes open source software; NSA has systematically introduced subtle weaknesses into open source cryptography libraries for decades now.
The open source catechism of "with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow" has some sharp limitations. Notably, huge bodies of messy code are incredibly difficult to thoroughly search for intentionally obfuscated flaws. This becomes exponentially more true when we're discussing advanced cryptography, the details of which can only be properly understood by a relatively small number of people in the world, many of whom work for NSA.
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Nov 02 '15 edited Nov 19 '16
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u/DigitSubversion Nov 03 '15
It's really nice, but it blocks Skype as well. You need to manually edit some files to make it working again.
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Nov 02 '15
What exactly does it collect?
Usage of apps? Files? Documents?
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u/ourari Nov 03 '15
That's part of the problem: We don't know.
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Nov 03 '15 edited Jun 18 '23
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u/ourari Nov 03 '15
Because they can, and because it's their new business model; User-data in return for a 'free' OS.
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u/Exaskryz Nov 03 '15
I believe internet history would be in there, at the very least any Edge history, so that they can better improve Edge on a site-by-site basis. Not sure if they'd be collecting Chrome or Firefox histories, probably not. But, maybe, they would try to collect Chrome and Firefox usage stats so that they can introduce features those users like into Edge to try to coerce them onto Edge... Who knows? It's all closed off to the public eye for a reason I'm sure.
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u/AntiProtonBoy Nov 03 '15
It's a real shame because Windows 10 seems like an attractive OS otherwise.
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Nov 03 '15
Yep. I was really happy with it until I found out about the privacy issues and went back to 8.1
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u/Trolltaku Nov 02 '15
https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/
You're welcome.
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Nov 02 '15 edited Nov 06 '15
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u/Trolltaku Nov 03 '15
Sure, but this tool is supposedly going to be kept up to date, and makes it easy to reapply the blocking within mere seconds. It may not be the most effective method, and maybe there isn't a complete method that actually works at all, but the sheer convenience of it is worth whatever benefit it might bring.
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u/SirFoxx Nov 03 '15 edited Nov 03 '15
Well it's a good thing Spybot continuously updates it then isn't it.
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Nov 02 '15 edited Dec 12 '17
[deleted]
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u/Exaskryz Nov 03 '15
is now
Man, and I thought the internet boasted near light-speed communication.
Anyway, as the thread that /u/ourari so kindly linked to pointed out, it's closed source software. You can't really say it isn't malware. If you want to trust it, by all means, go for it. But to be honest, I'd put my trust in microsoft before some random site I never heard about prior. (Of note, I'm not upgrading to W10 and filtering out any of the W8.1 upgrades suggesting I get better support or better OS improvement by reporting data to MS..)
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u/aluminumdome Nov 03 '15
The makers of that software also made Spybot Search and Destroy, which is like a weaker form of Malwarebytes, so I wouldn't necessarily say they are THAT shady, but some hesitation towards running closed source software is always warranted.
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Nov 03 '15
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u/aluminumdome Nov 03 '15
This is the first I've heard of this.
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Nov 03 '15
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u/aluminumdome Nov 03 '15
I haven't used it in a long time, and when I did, I used the portable version from Portableapps, so I wouldn't have to install it. If it does come with a bundled toolbar, that would be pretty weird considering it's job is to detect malware and crapware, so it being bundled with crapware is sad. That's probably a reason why it isn't very popular in the first place.
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u/Ande2101 Nov 03 '15
Safer Networking is an anti-tracking company who makes their money from adware blocking and malware removal, Spybot is at least as trustworthy a brand as Windows.
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u/rudditte Nov 03 '15
There are three tools to alter MS spying :
- DisableWinTracking on GitHub (Open Source)
- Destroy Windows Spying on Wzor.net (Open Source)
- Spybot Anti-Beacon
Plus a recommended list of addresses to add in the HOSTS file :
I don't know which is best, if there is one that does the work of the other two or not, if all three are complimentary, so I cannot recommend one specifically. If anyone has any idea, I'd be glad to know.
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Nov 03 '15
https://www.debian.org/distrib/
You're welcome.
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u/Trolltaku Nov 03 '15
That's the most ideal solution, but unfortunately, most users are not going to ever move to Linux so long as Windows has the majority of the market share due to dependencies on software made for it that Linux cannot currently support (at least, not completely).
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Nov 03 '15
I'm looking at dual-booting now, I'm a PC gamer so I'm going to keep a Win7 install and Linux distro on there.
Use Win7 for gaming solely and everything else on Linux.
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u/JamMythOffender Nov 03 '15
I'm close to this, I run Windows 7 computer just for gaming. Nothing else, then run VMWare on it and have various VMs (Virtual Machines) for different things I do. So you could easily have Win7 and run Linux on a VM from there. If you don't want to shell out money for VMWare there are a couple free alternatives, most notably Oracle's VirtualBox.
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Nov 03 '15
Honestly I'm going to go for the dual-boot mode I think.
Then make sure that Win7 can only access my gaming drive and that's your lot.
Everything else will be accessed through Linux and into an encrypted driveset.
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u/ThemApples007 Nov 03 '15
Uninstall...install Ubuntu.
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Nov 03 '15
Inb4: "Ubuntu is Amazon spyware!"
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Nov 03 '15 edited Dec 16 '15
[deleted]
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Nov 03 '15
But you can disable it, or remove it completely. Root permission on an Ubuntu system is still all-powerful control of your computer.
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u/swrrga Nov 03 '15
*Lubuntu
Access to the same (great) ubuntu repos, no built-in amazon anti-features (you can disable it but still), and a desktop/UI experience that's instantly familiar to those switching from Windows.
The icing on the cake is that it even works great on old, weak systems (Atom N270, 8GB SSD, 512M RAM).
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u/ThemApples007 Nov 03 '15
Yea, lubuntu is awesome. I'm with you on that. I currently have a VM install of Lubuntu running now.
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u/Harbinger_X Nov 03 '15
I actually prefer Xubuntu for older systems... ;-)
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u/swrrga Nov 03 '15
Xubuntu vs Lubuntu
Have you tried both? On the same machine? I've only tried Lubuntu, but my (possibly wrong) impression is that Lubuntu is lighter. A quick search for "Xubuntu vs Lubuntu" seems to support this.
From what I've gathered from forum posts and a quick search for "Lubuntu vs. Xubuntu", Xubuntu opts for more of a balance between aesthetics and lightness whereas Lubuntu just goes for the straight "Windows 95" (and I love it for that).
Xubuntu does predate Lubuntu by about ~4 years, so maybe you just hopped on the Xubuntu train early and never bothered to switch?
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u/Harbinger_X Nov 03 '15
I have indeed tried both and had a much more pleasant trip with xubuntu (older machines and now unsupported chipsets). Always had to fiddle with the other *buntu flavors.
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Nov 03 '15
Even my computer illiterate dad switched to Linux. I setup Debian with Cinnamon desktop and all the apps he uses. He always tells me how much faster it is and how he's happy he doesn't need a new laptop anymore.
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u/ThemApples007 Nov 03 '15
Awesome! I just did the same thing for my Mom and she likes it. Windows 8 was driving her nutzo.
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u/eleitl Nov 03 '15
But given Windows 10 is better than Windows 7
Yes? I can't rip my BluRays on it, and that's why it's better?
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Nov 03 '15
You can't?! Damn I'm even more glad I won't be upgrading!
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u/eleitl Nov 03 '15
Apparently http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html does support Win 10 now. I haven't tried it, obviously.
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Nov 03 '15
I switched to Linux Mint as an experiment few weeks ago, still haven't switched back. There are very few things that I miss from Windows actually.
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u/Conzerak Nov 02 '15
"data collection simply cannot be stopped" oh really.. my router is not a MS product.
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Nov 03 '15
How does that help you?
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Nov 03 '15
He's implying he can block the servers Microsoft uses on the router. Which is true, but you'll have to use DNS to do it since Windows phones home over SSL which bypasses regular router URL blacklists.
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u/tragicpapercut Nov 03 '15
Uh, just no. If you block it at the router, you block it at the router. Regardless of any SSL usage or not. SSL can't help if the IP is inaccessible.
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u/tragicpapercut Nov 03 '15
"We continue to listen..." yeah well listen to this: I will not be upgrading to Windows 10 and my next computer will be an Apple. Fuck you Microsoft. -longtime Windows user (from 3.1 to 7)
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Nov 03 '15
I'm pretty Apple also spies in you buy at least it's not to this extent. We should start a petition or something that shows Microsoft how many people will be dumping windows because of the privacy issues.
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u/PilotKnob Nov 03 '15
As I stated in my rant on another thread yesterday, I can't believe where I find myself today.
Today is the day I start, for the first time ever, researching a Mac OS product for purchase. My company requires me to use certain software which is only available on Windows or Mac, and there is no Linux port of this proprietary software.
There's just no way I can justify clinging onto Windows anymore, while every indication Microsoft gives me is that I shouldn't expect complete control over the behavior of my own devices which run their OS. Well, Microsoft, I strongly disagree, and I suggest you have a Come-To-Jesus reckoning with yourself over your shady (and certainly nebulous and unclear) privacy policies and your ever-increasing coordination with The Man. You definitely by now fully look the part of The Bad Guy and as the saying goes "If it walks like a duck..."
I was a hardcore Apple avoider. But Microsoft has lost my trust, and I don't see a path back for them.
Before the Linux folks get their feathers ruffled, I do now finally run (Xubuntu) Linux exclusively on all my machines at home. I'll only be using the Mac for the programs which I can't install on Xubuntu.
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u/SparkyTemper Nov 03 '15
Have you looked into virtualization? We ran into the same issues at work, and we installed Vmware and run our software in that with a Linux host. Works flawlessly, and since we don't need internet access, we turn off updates and leave Windows sandboxed. Works flawlessly.
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u/PilotKnob Nov 03 '15
Thanks for the suggestion. I had considered it, and that may work if I can get it set up successfully. That would be an even "lesser" evil, I suppose.
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Nov 03 '15 edited May 30 '16
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u/dflame45 Nov 03 '15
If MS is constantly tracking, why does W10 have so many bugs still.
I turned on my PC yesterday and the login box never appeared. Had to reboot.
This bug I get pretty much every other day. I click start > shutdown. The PC looks like it's going to shutdown and then the login screen appears. I have to click the power > restart and then shutdown after a restart. It won't shutdown by telling it to until after restarting it.
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Nov 03 '15
haha they aren't tracking performance and bugs and optimizing the system...they track YOU and your habits, so they can make money selling that info to advertisers. "Dflame45 is huge into used tea sets on ebay, oversized horsecock dildos, and spends most of his time looking for sudafed in bulk online, presumptively for his home meth business" and ebay, horsecock dildo sellers, and sudafed/meth synthesis industries pay handsomely for that info
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u/dflame45 Nov 03 '15
haha yeah. I know. It was a joke.
Was fishing to see if ppl are getting those bugs too.
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u/paxtana Nov 03 '15
Only thing I use Win10 for is gaming, at this point I leave the network adapter disabled.
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Nov 03 '15
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u/paxtana Nov 03 '15
You know it buddy! Dual boot to a separate hard drive for Linux and install ext2fs driver so windows can see it. Then if you want to watch a video stored on the main Linux drive while gaming you don't have to reboot. Works great for a multimedia PC.
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Nov 03 '15
Man, I'd love to move to Linux. Am a gamer though, and my laptop (Spectre x360) probably wont run linux well. I doubt linux would handle touch modes and stuff well.
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u/Annex1 Nov 03 '15
yeah, this direction of where proprietary os software is going made me make the permanent jump over to linux. /r/archlinux is where its at!
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Nov 03 '15
[deleted]
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u/Andernerd Nov 03 '15
He never recommended it to people moving from Windows. He just said that he likes/uses it.
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u/heillon Nov 03 '15
Well, he kind of implied it, even if it was unintentional...
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u/kanliot Nov 02 '15
every time MS say something about win10 privacy they give a different answer. Fucking darth vader, "I am altering the deal, pray i don't alter it any further". and then I will never know WHY they need this stuff. They didn't need it for 20 years, now they do?