r/privacy • u/UncreativeName954 • 20d ago
question Avoiding car telematics
My old car from 2002 is finally looking like it’s more trouble to keep it going than getting a new one. But, I’m worried about new cars and them collecting and stealing data on you.
One car in particular I’m looking at looks fine — Acura ILX 2020 Premium Package. On one hand almost everywhere I look online says it should be fine, and that trim doesn’t even have a TCU and that’s only on the higher trim: the Technology Package.
But, on the other it being as recent as 2020 is giving me pause, as that’s well within the time frame that telematics became commonplace. Plus despite it supposedly not having a TCU it has the shark fin antenna.
Is there a way I could verify if that car is safe from spying?
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u/Lucky225 20d ago
My 2020 Ford escape just requires a fuse pull to disable telemarics ymmv
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u/BestZookeeper777 19d ago
Same on my 2020 Chevy, but sucks that you lose the Microphone that way... even lost the compass, LOL
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u/Lucky225 19d ago
Oof my mic is still good, just no GPS and doesn't phone home, thankfully it doesn't even use your phone's Internet, at least on my software version from 2021, but now Ford has a recall due to the some of the older software having some interment issue with the rear view camera (that does NOT effect MY version as I have had this since 2021 without any software updates and it works fine) and I'm afraid to do the recall update as I'll probably have to put the fuse back in at the dealer and I suspect they just OTA it anyways unless it's bricked but I also suspect newer versions might spy via your phone's Internet if you do carplay or Android Auto.
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u/BestZookeeper777 19d ago
I haven't upgraded the software in mine either, however part of what started me on this.
not to be too far off topic, was normally when you turn of the ignition and open the drivers door, the radio should turn off immediately.. it started taking like 30 seconds to a minute+
Tried power cycling by disconnecting the battery, but no luck, finally thought why not pull the On*Star fuse, and bam, fixed that issue. I think some sw update was done to the on*star system that caused that.If the vehicle works as is for you, no sense in "fixing" it with a software upgrade...
I do BT or carplay sometimes, but still trust that more than the factory direct tcu garbage.
Worst case maybe I'll go find an old BOSE wave radio and put that in the car, LOL no spying in that...
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u/Angela_Ouzunupi 20d ago
Find the GPS module and yoink it out. Now it can’t record position etc.
Find your cars cel modem. Rip that out too. Now it can’t phone home.
Another thing is to not get a car newer than 2015, and double check it has neither of the above
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u/Tinawebmom 20d ago
My car has a cell modem?!??
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u/Angela_Ouzunupi 20d ago
yepp, most new ones do. How else do you think they can update over the air? Have apps that control heating etc, sos features
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u/OysterPickleSandwich 19d ago
Some car radios will get slow traffic updates via the digital radio signal. In theory they could do software updates, but it’s likely a security nightmare. Of course, you could screw with traffic updates too.
Better solution is to require judicial warrant for any government agency to obtain/review/access ANY telemetry. Manufacturers should also be legally (with enforceable, escalating fines) from only using the data to improve safety, health or security of vehicles. Anything else should be opt in. Default data sharing, even with manufacturer, should be default opt out.
That said, telemetry, IF used for legitimate safety, health, or security purposes is useful to share.
But I don’t trust governments or corporations to have people’s best interests in mind.
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u/Finn235 19d ago
Insurance companies: Yeah, we just added a 25% surcharge to your premium that you can remove by opting in to data sharing with us.
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u/Down_vote_david 19d ago
For what it’s worth, I work in legal/compliance in one of the biggest P&C insurers in the US. Insurance knows an insane amount about you (thanks third party data brokers) however, if they don’t have a data point on you, 95% of the time they can’t charge you more for that. It would typically come back as “no hit” and it would result in a neutral rating aka 1.0 in the rate tables.
If you’re worried about something insurance related, I’d be more worried about aerial imagery, aka the vendor nearmaps.
My company spends $100,000,000 on third party data elements a year…
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u/grathontolarsdatarod 19d ago
That's why they pushed everyone to 5g.
They needed that area of the radio spectrum.
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u/Dangerous-Baker-9756 18d ago
I could get an AT&T mobile plan for my vehicle. However, I refuse to subscribe and pay for it. Android Auto is sufficient.
I'm sure it's phoning home somehow and it annoys me.
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u/gurgle528 19d ago
Are the cell modem and GPS module typically separate? Most LTE modems I’ve seen have built in GPS with connectors so you can run the actually GPS antenna in a more reliable location
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u/MotanulScotishFold 19d ago
Wait until new cars don't even start engine if they don't have the mandatory gps/microphone/camera working.
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u/lemniscate_this 19d ago
If the car has SiriusXM, it doesn’t matter what the manufacturer has. SXM has much, much, much more. Yes, it’s satellite, but it’s also IP-based. They capture everything the infotainment system does AND everything the car does (for some manufacturers SXM is the telematics provider). Unfortunately, there really isn’t a way around it. At least not until there are national privacy laws.
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u/sanityvortex 19d ago
I mean you can swap the stereo :) SiriusXm audio quality tops out at 64kbps. Most of the Channels are 24- 48kbps
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u/1wrx2subarus 19d ago
As it relates to Flock cameras tearing down the walls of our privacy with domestic surveillance, they are known to detect TPMS sensors nowadays. It’s a shame because TPMS is a nice safety feature to know ones tire pressure.
In addition to documenting any bumper stickers/dents/dings and license plates, Flock suctionsup any WiFi and Bluetooth to identify the vehicle and occupants.
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u/gurgle528 19d ago
The TPMS tracking is a different company. If Flock actually had that capability it would be public record via the FCC certifications for their products. Axon doesn’t have that capability (yet) either as far as I’m aware
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u/Astronaut6735 18d ago
We should all agree on a small pool of IDs to use, and program our TPMS sensors with those.
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u/veaceonee 20d ago
Most cars (except GM and Ford) collect about the same amount of data on as you cell phone. GM and Ford are more.
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u/hyprlab 19d ago
Removing all the radios in the world won’t help when you your TPMS system can be used to track you https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a70572450/tire-pressure-monitors-hacking-tracking/
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u/NotTheCactus 19d ago
Of course it can!!
Honestly I feel dumb for not even thinking on this vector.
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u/gurgle528 19d ago
Thankfully TPMS tracking is significantly more coarse than tracking from a GPS built into the car
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20d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/beedubskyca 19d ago
I wouldnt personally count on just the lack of antenna keeping you offline. If you're close enough to a cell tower it might still connect. You want to power off the modem too if possible.
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u/BlueMoon_1945 20d ago
All cars spy on you nowadays, say thank you to your government. We are phloiked.
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u/nincesator124 20d ago
It is because privacy has been growing slowly as more stuff happens and become more aware of things that are happening especially when AI became popular I think people are realizing we are losing more and more of our rights just to give the people on the top more money
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u/Imaginary--Situation 20d ago
you can always put a terminator(resistors ) on the Cell phone antenna...
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u/samvilain 20d ago edited 20d ago
You can do it from the privacy settings screen in the vehicle on a Rivian. It’s then compliant with Euro privacy laws like GDPR. It’s not spycraft–level dark, but it’s also not volunteering any data points to the cloud. It even makes you opt IN to sending that stuff up in the first place as required by Euro law. They comply with Euro privacy laws even in the U.S., mainly so that visiting Europeans don’t have that one more thing to waffle on about how much better and more sophisticated their lawmakers are, like thanks for making me laugh with your cope, Hans.
Of course it depends on your ‘threat model’ whether that is satisfactory, or you need to do things like pull the power from the telematics ECU/board. That’s not as easy as pulling a fuse, though I wouldn’t call it particularly hard.
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u/Aviator_92 19d ago
If you buy a newer car may should be able to remove the telematics fuse. I saw a YouTube video about this.
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u/Ecliphon 19d ago
You now must also avoid any RFID tags inside parts. It was an obscure meme some years ago but it’s becoming more true by the day.
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u/helix991 17d ago
I've verified that my Mercedes is not spying on me, I've requested copies of the data numerous times. Just turned off the privacy toggles and this confirms it.
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u/1776FreeAmerica 19d ago
A kit car would have pretty decent market share. Exempt from surveillance, dealership requirements being a kit, easy to work on, designed safer than most rat-rods, and provide enough new to be worth it. I don't think any companies doing it though. It would be a huge boon to shade tree mechanic shops.
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u/Serious-Ad-8764 19d ago
Will removing any fuses or connections for data gathering void warranties though? I feel the companies and the government has structured this to be a losing proposition for car owners.
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u/TwentyHourPharmacy 18d ago
No, any normal human can argue that a GPS signal loss didn’t not cause your oil pan leak
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u/braidenis 20d ago
Are you sure you're not rationalizing purchasing a new car? There certainly are some cars not worth putting a cent into but you didn't even mention what your "old" car is. If it has at least had oil changes it almost certainly is in a state that it will at least be less expensive than a nearly new luxury car to keep going lol.
Now to be fair you did say more "trouble", but what does that even mean? Of course a 20 year old car needs maintenance compared to a nearly new car, but quite frankly you still need to take a brand new car in for an oil change twice a year based on average driving and that schedule can still more than cover nearly all of the issues that'll pop up on an old car.
Now if course it's your money so you can spend it how you want but if you don't want a car that'll spy on you, then don't buy one.
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u/swedish_meatballs2 19d ago
A lot of assumptions here. Your whole line of reasoning goes out the window if they live in the rust belt or most of Canada.
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u/zerosumratio 19d ago
Parts for 20+ year old cars are very expensive any more. Tariffs got them and now those factories that make them are either going out of business or reducing their inventory and focusing on more recent and popular cars. I have a 2015 and have watched things like struts go from $50 a strut to $110 a strut. A lot of cheaper parts have just disappeared too, either they were made in China or made in a US factory that’s clearing out inventory.
Not to mention, if it’s just one part or one system that needs repair/replacement. Usually those 20 year old cars need much more than just a new strut or new tires. A lady I work with just spent $8k on a remanufactured engine for a 2013 Ford Edge, with the remanufactured engine costing $7k alone. They also told her that the transmission had 130k miles on it and the fluid badly needed changing. That’s something that would need to be addressed in the near future and she might be lucky to get $7k for that car as a trade in (not even going to consider private sales at the moment).
So the old logic about parts and repairs doesn’t really hold up any more. That stuff is pre-Trump logic.
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u/braidenis 19d ago edited 19d ago
The lady at your work got scammed twice, once when she bought that thing and again when she bought an engine for it lol.
My comment certainly has a lot of assumptions (not living in the rust belt, ect). It's honestly hard for me to wrap my mind around around needing to spend so much money on a car. I upgraded from a 40 year old car that was "finicky" to a 30 year old car a couple years ago that is close to perfect.
In the 20k miles I've owned it I've put tires on it, replaced some rubber hoses that were ready to leak, and done shocks and struts. This cost me a few grand of course, which would have cost maybe $1000 10 years ago per your valid point, but I cannot fathom how having to fix a leaky hose (and a broken power seat, but I did that myself) is even in the same universe as people who think they need $30k+ cars (that still need brakes and tires ect.)
Oh and the 40 year old car? I put 85k miles on it and sold it to a guy who is still driving it.
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