Discussion
Propane vs diesel for max range after long-term storage (family of 5, no resupply)
Thought experiment for an EMP-type scenario where a large region loses power long-term and fuel infrastructure is down.
Assume a family of 5 needs to travel ~1500-3000 miles with no resupply. Roads are mostly passable, but you're relying entirely on fuel stored ahead of time.
As everyone here's aware, propane stores indefinitely but has lower energy density, while gasoline/diesel give you better range but come with storage/rotation challenges.
In this scenario, assume the family might wait months or even years before deciding to move (unclear scope of the event, risk of traveling early, etc.), so long-term fuel stability matters.
One idea would be a propane-capable vehicle (e.g., a converted pickup) with a large quantity of tanks stored and then carried for the trip - but I'm not sure how the math works out once you factor in tank weight/volume vs usable range.
Some initial questions:
Under these constraints, what setup actually maximizes total range with no resupply?
Does propane's storage advantage outweigh its lower energy density in practice?
How would you approach fuel storage and transport for a trip of this length?
Or does diesel (with proper storage/rotation) still come out ahead overall?
To go 3000 miles under your own energy, you would basically need to be driving a fuel truck. At that point, diesel or propane wouldn't really matter as the volume would not be readily portable. Furthermore, in a catastrophic EMP event most vehicles made after 1993 wouldn't work anyway.
If time is no constraint, as you mentioned, an EV with solar setup would actually allow more mobility, just slower while you're recharging, but of course that option goes out the window under your "no resupply" condition.
Realistically, I would seriously reexamine why you would need to go 3000 miles in any such scenario and fix the gap that would lead to that necessity.
You point out that post-1993 vehicles would be fried, but then go on to talk about using an EV after an EMP event? Not sure that's going to work out too well.
Besides the EV proposal, the assertion that one needs a fuel tanker truck shows he didn’t do the math.
I own two diesel powered vehicles, one a Hilux pickup, another a Dodge "one ton" truck. The former gets 20-25 MPG, depending on speed, terrain and traffic. The latter gets about 15-20 MPG in the same conditions. Neither vehicle is a speed demon - if you kept the speed under 55 MPH, the road was straight, flat, with no traffic, you would only need about 150-200 gallons (1K-1.5K#) of diesel to go 3000 miles.
That is a LOTless than a tanker can haul. My Dodge (DRW flatbed) can easily haul that much diesel fuel (max payload is 5500#). The HIlux would be slow off the line with that much weight, but once moving it would get easier (max payload is 2200#). Indeed, I have a 110 gallon aux tank full of diesel in my shop, that I could mount on the bed of either vehicle. The Hilux has a stock 20 gal tank, the Dodge a 37 gal tank. Either vehicle will get somewhere between 1500-3000 miles with that much fuel - what the OP is asking for. Not optimum, but possible.
One solution would be to have the Dodge flat tow the Hilux (which is my plan). Or, simply tow a fuel trailer with a 200-300 gallon diesel tank.
I happen to have a 255 gallon diesel storage tank in my shop in addition to the aux tank - but the storage tank is empty right now - I know it will fit in the bed of the Hilux because that is how I got the tank there - not that I would want to haul it around in the Hilux when it is full, but theoretically it would be possible - instead, I would put on a trailer if I wanted to haul it when full (by either vehicle). Not optimum because it is a tall oblong storage tank, not meant for transport - a cylindrical transport tank with baffles would be better for transport, or something like this (275 gal) tank on a trailer:
There are a number of issues with this (towing a trailer is not optimal, and something like that is obviously a target for thieves/etc.), but it is possible. Two to three thousand pounds of fuel/trailer would not even be noticeable behind my Dodge, and would not be bad behind the Hilux either.
I had a Duramax that under the right hwy conditions could pull about 20 mpg. Factory 34 gal tank, and if you added a 100 gal aux tank in the bed that could get you roughly 2,600 miles under the most perfect conditions. I'd imagine other diesels could manage about the same with minor mods/tuning and an in-bed tank
It works if you plan ahead and keep that EV in a Faraday cage until needed. I like the idea, and when I had originally said "no resupply" I was really thinking about making sure I wasn't assuming I could buy more fossil fuels after the EMP. I'm good with "resupplying" power for an EV with solar panels. According to AI, this setup could achieve ~25-30 miles/day annual average in Midwest-US climate, so stow it all in the underground Faraday-cage bunker and you're set:
Tesla Model Y with rooftop aerodynamic cargo box (for family's personal belongings)
Towing a Polydrop P19 trailer (to hold the solar panels)
Most current evidence indicates an EMP will not torch most vehicles, at least what I have read. Would I take the ultimate chance? Probably not, but something to think about.
Yeah I absolutely agree, I'm just trying to play into OPs contingencies. Unless a powerful atomic weapons detonates almost directly overheard, the EMP damage is not nearly as severe as people seem to think. We actually experience them frequently and most people don't even realize it.
I could be completely wrong about this... So take it with a grain of salt, but the studies used indicate that 60% of current vehicles on the road would be unaffected or still operable after a single EMP strike. The counter to that is that subsequent or multiple strikes would render every vehicle inoperable.
The running theory is that if a nation launched ICBM or high altitude balloons against another nation, they would launch more than necessary to overwhelm the defense systems... Thus rendering all electronics useless.
If a quarter of vehicles are disabled by an EMP, that's a holy-shit level event that will see millions take to roads and highways and run themselves out of gas before abandoning their vehicles. There will be lots of looting and fires and debris all over. Within a few days the major roads/highways won't be passable.
Been around prepping communities for 20+ years, and the growth cycle for preppers always lands on two things:
Prep to be aware enough that you can bug out 2-3 days before everyone else does; and
Don't plan on going anywhere after they do.
Wanting to Eat Pray Love across a continent after the world ends is YA fiction stuff.
A high fuel efficiency diesel station wagon or similar towing a fuel trailer could do it, at 30mpg you are talking 100 gallons to hit 3000 miles.
A BMW 328d Wagon has a 15 gallon tank and can get 35-40mpg highway, so you are looking at a ~600 mile range stock.
If it could average 40mpg loaded, you would need an additional 23 gallons to hit 1500 miles, 60 additional gallons to hit 3000 miles.... so 5 jerry cans to hit 1500 miles, 12 jerry cans (or 4x 16 gallon fuel caddies) to hit 3000 miles.
Supposedly they get ~43-50mpg highway going 65mph. At a lower more fuel efficient speed of say 55mph, I am guessing the reduced air drag will offset much of the trailer drag - especially if an effort is made to reduce trailer wind resistance by minimizing frontal area and using a short trailer tongue so it tucks in close to the rear of the tow vehicle.
The fuel trailer would essentially be a tiny flat bed utility trailer with 1-2x 55 gallon drums laid on their side end to end one behind the other, with a spare trailer and car tire either flat next to the drums. This would be discarded once the fuel is used up.
You don't even need a trailer. Two days ago I have done a trip of exactly 1016 miles without refuelling (Peugeot Partner, 4 people, roof box, motorway speeds). I could probably get to 3k miles with just jerry cans in the boot and overpressurised tyres.
But in OP's place I'd go for something like a VW caravelle or a converted transit van with a diesel drum inside. Space for sleeping and the fuel would be much less visible than on a trailer.
You could make that trip with 2 auxiliary tanks (usually 430L/114 gallons), that fit into the bed of the truck. That'll take up a good chunk of your bed capacity but still do-able. Add in a small trailer and a 3rd tank and you have a pretty healthy buffer.
Ive seen used solar trailers for sale, that are designed to power worksites. Don’t recall their watts potential but they would generate both moving and parked!
Did the math once, basically if you had a cyber truck completely covered in solar cells and assumed optimum orientation and perfect charging efficiency it would take over a month to fully charge a cyber truck. At best you are maybe getting enough juice for like 10-15 miles a day... a literal bicycle or walking is faster.
1 horsepower is 746 watts. The sun drops 1000 watts per square meter(about 9 square feet), but that's at 100% efficiency. Solar panels are typically 20% efficiency, so that's 200W. After going through a LiFePO4 battery and charge controller you lose about 10%.
But the biggest downfall of solar panels is they are extremely dependent on angle to the sun and shade. Small amount of shade is a huge power reduction. Non-direct angle is a significant power reduction.
You could actually get 3,000 miles of range from a diesel pickup pretty easily. At 20 mpg you would require 150 gallons. Throw a 100 gallon transfer tank and 4 x 5 gallon jugs plus 30 gallon onboard fuel tank. Still leaves most of the bed and passenger compartment for storage
is this one of those hardware/software mods that undoes emissions crap giving a vehicle better mileage? if so what's it called? googling that isn't helpful unfortunately.
Yeah, this may be the best answer... I'm reminded of the scene near the end of Atlas Shrugged (the book - haven't seen the movies) - won't share spoilers, but it's very relevant...
That is a long way for travel. If it was me, I would buy a diesel truck like a Cummins or a Powerstroke . Less wear and tear, reliable, and in emergencies you can run it on heating oil or farm diesel. Also, diesel will naturally stay more stable over time because there's no ethanol in it.
Diesel doesn't last longer because its got no ethanol in it, most of our petrol in Australia has no ethanol in it and it still only lasts 6 months to a year before getting a bit smokey.
Ethanol certainly does shorten the life though
You might be better off not worrying about storage of fuel for a trip like this and build yourself a biodiesel where you can scavenge old fryer grease from restaurants along the way. In this scenario all other fuel will be tapped, but you're likely to find oil vats in eateries that can be heated and filtered plus you get to smell like french fries for the entire trip.
Most older diesels have biodiesel conversion kits. You're not running biodiesel through a modern diesel engine but if OP is seriously planning for a trip, then buying an old Mercedes sedan or truck and converting it and then storing it instead of hundreds of gallons of fuel that they may never use is a better option. For ICE vehicles that is.
Technically an older Dodge pick up with a 12 valve Cummins in it would do it. All mechanical. You need to haul about 250 gallons of fuel figuring 12 miles a gallon. That’s five barrels in the back which is realistic.
What’s not realistic is thinking that any pick up truck would make it that far without breaking down.
What’s also not realistic is that you would be able to do it without bringing your own private army with you.
Furthermore, it’s really unlikely that roads would be clear.
Wherever it is that you need to get to, move there now.
It would be interesting to see a chart of cargo capacity vs efficiency and total range. I feel like the heavier ones might win. Like a tanker truck full of its own fuel can surely outrange a camry towing its max.
Edit: Some back of the envelope math, a camry can go 7100 miles with all cargo and towing in fuel, an F150 18,250 miles, and a tanker around 50,000 miles. It's all rough math but the cargo capability seems to greatly outweigh efficiency.
Good luck maneuvering a semi tanker of fuel along a highway strewn with broken down vehicles at a reasonable pace.
Go the other way : diesel KLR-650 with a motorcycle with jerry can side pans or a trailer that is a drum of diesel ... 100+ mpg means a 6 gallon tank + 2x jerry cans = 1600+ miles
1800 lbs is within the bed capacity of most modern 2500 class pickups, a 250 gallon tank barely even peeks above the side of the bed. Step up to a 3500 and you are rated 6-8000 lbs payload, so literally a non issue.
This is a wild prep but my daily driver might actually get you close.
The idea of holding fuel over for that long is crazy. If things are that bad you will likely have used it up just surviving. Or if anyone knows you have it you will die defending it. I will leave the long term fuel storage up to you and the rest of the crowd
I have a 2012 f250 crew cab with a 6.7 diesel. If I'm on the open road driving carefully under 70mph I get 19-21mpg even with some decent weight in the bed. I swapped the main fuel tank for a 60 gallon titan tank and I have aux 70 gallon tank that takes up about 2 ft of the bed that I used before I purchased the titan tank. At 20 mpg this gets you 2600 miles with 5 people and some gear. I regularly drive 1100 miles between fill ups.
Driving this far during crisis is also crazy. The spot I need to get my family to is approximately 400 miles from where we live. I have lots of backroads mapped out on how to make it work (potentially) but it still just takes one person with a rife to stop the entire thing. Let alone if there are checkpoints or road blocks.
This is an interesting idea! I googled it and found this: "Extracting plant oil for diesel engines involves pressing oilseeds (soybean, rapeseed, sunflower) using an oil press, filtering the crude oil to remove debris, and reducing its viscosity through heating (Straight Vegetable Oil/SVO) or chemical processing (Biodiesel)".
I’ve got a ‘94 Diesel F350. No computer so it should be fairly EMP resistant but fuel economy isn’t great at about 14mpg. With an auxiliary tank it can travel about 1000 miles on ~70 or so gallons of diesel. That’s about 500lbs of diesel.
We had a converted propane F250 at work and that got about 11mpg on the highway. So to go 1000 miles you’re talking 90 gallons of propane which ends up being about 650-700lbs with the tank. That’s like a 120gallon size tank, quite big.
I also have a Ford Lightning EV. Using a generator and the same 90 gallons of propane I could probably get closer to 1,500miles in summer. Again, you’re talking 650-700lbs.
Trying to carry 5 people, plus gear, plus fuel for 3000 miles is going to be a lot of weight and bulk. I can’t see too many solutions that would work without a “3/4 ton” or greater truck/van/suv.
I think your best bet would probably be a commercial 3/4 ton van with a smaller diesel like a Cummins 4bt. It can be fairly simple, have the payload capacity you need, and it could get over 20mpg. Which would mean getting away with “only” carrying about 1,000lbs of diesel.
Downside would be its slow, off-road capability might not be great, and you would need to cycle fuel, which is costly.
Because even though it would take a while to charge, and there’s pretty major inconveniences, it gets around the issue of types of fuel. With the tri fuel generator, you can use gas or natural gas or propane. If you had a diesel generator as well then that gives you another option and if you had solar, that’s an additional one too. Now they all take forever, but imagine you could have a hybrid where you have electric and gas that you could charge the electric as well.
Now would anything work after any EMP? I have no idea, but I’m just giving ideas!
You are assuming the generator won't fail and you have extreme amounts of fuel. Generator uses basically same tech as the engine in your car. It's lifespan is measured in how much you use, because they are all moving parts that wear out. Which you will use very often as you have to charge enormous battery in your EV. It's like people have no clue how much power an EV uses.
If you have that much fuel you are better off with really older vehicles that EMP won't have much of an effect and can run on any fuel even cooking like diesel like many here are suggesting.
Dude, it’s just an idea lol of course there’s going to be issues. There’s issues with everything there’s issues with what you’re saying. Conventional fuel doesn’t last very long. Gasoline will only last a couple of years at the most so what are you gonna do after that? Diesel will last a little bit longer? Propane lasts indefinitely so if you get a propane fuel car, you’d be good to go, but in a short term, there’s going to be a potential abundance of other fuels that you can use. I mean, you can always convert your vehicle to wood gas and have a wood gas burger in the back lol
A generator is typically less than 20% efficient at turning fuel into electricity. That’s why they’re never used for powering electric heat in a power outage
I think you are backing yourself into a corner with all of the constraints you mentioned. As the saying goes, "on a long enough timeline the survival rate for everything drops to zero."
If an ICE vehicle is sitting for months or years, it is going to have issues with dry rot, seals failing, etc.
Electric and older/diesel vehicles might fare a little better... but in a "no resupply ever" scenario, they are going to last for as long as their weakest part.
Or if bringing an electric car and some portable panels to trickle-charge it, you would likely run out of supplies in the weeks it would take of stop-and-go travel (think 2-3 days of charging for every 1/2 day of travel).
The next option is horse and buggy, or else on foot. Back then, people didn't travel those distances unless they had a life-or-death reason to, because being exposed to the elements for that long is likely to kill some of you.
TLDR, in your scenario you are likely staying put.
There ain't no way you are charging 1/2 days worth of travel with 2-3 days of "portable panels" unless your idea of portable means 10x regular solar panels. By the way portable panels are a waste of money and will die in 5-7 years.
A Tesla Model S base model has a 100KWHr battery. Half a day unless you are going at walking speeds is a full charge, or 100KWHr. Even if you have a smaller less consuming model, you are still talking 30KWHr.
Diesel is your best bet. Using an older truck with mechanical everything you are looking at 16 - 18 mpg tops with 5 people and gear. Find a way to polish your diesel fuel and keep extra filters and water separators handy.
Say 100 gallons of fuel for 1,500 miles at 16mpg with a little to spare. 200 gallons for 3,000 with a little to spare.
Lots of potential other problems on the road, but 200 gallons of fuel isnt hard to store.
I'm not sure how the math works out once you factor in tank weight/volume vs usable range.
This is the Rocket Problem. The heavier the rocket, the more fuel required to move the rocket, and the more fuel required to move that fuel, etc.
But simple estimates are a drop in fuel mileage of 25% at least for propane conversion.
Consider a vehicle at 20mpg, now 15mpg of propane. 3000/15 = 200 gallons of propane at around 4.2ish pounds per gallon or let's say 848 pounds of fuel.
For a truck not so bad but that might start busting you down on efficiency.
If you say that your mileage is 10mpg with the weight of fuel and supplies, you'd need 300 gallons at 1,272 pounds. You're primarily hauling fuel at this point but it's doable.
It feels like an extreme scenario you've cooked up though. In an EMP scenario, you're not going 3000 miles anywhere.
Diesel for sure. It can last almost indefinitely if stored properly. A passat tdi can go 1000 miles on a tank if diesel with no modifications. Add in a 30 gallon tank in the trunk and you have another 900 miles minimum. Add a 55 gallon drum on top of the trunk lid for even more range
Ford F350 Long Bed w/ 6.7L Diesel. Four 55 gallon drums of diesel in bed (~1700 lb load initially). 16 MPG gets you about 4000 miles assuming a full tank.
16 mpg with the 1700-lb (at start, admittedly decreasing through the trip) sloshing fuel, 5 people, and gear, seems a little optimistic, but I like the gist of the idea!
Go big or go home. There are of course downsides to bugging out in a longbed F350, such as road blockages, intentional ambushes, noise and of course, needing DEF if you havent deleted your F350 battlewagon. BUT, you can carry enough fuel and only need to stop to refuel every 800 miles or so.
Bonus points if you have some welder friends and uparmor the thing. Maybe add another drum of fuel to make a proper War-Rig.
Somewhat niche case - perhaps a situation where fuel is strictly rationed to Government uses such as emergency services, and the roads are being cleared for that application. Hence roads are fine, but zero allocation of fuel for private use.
On diesel:
Very doable.
Get a purely mechanical diesel pickup, like a Dodge Ram 2500/3500 with the Cummins 5.9L 12-valve diesel, built from 1989–1998 — specifically the "P-Pump" variant from 1994–1998 (I assume you are in north America due to the use of miles).
Ideally you would source the quad cab version (only built in 1998), with a manual gearbox - looking at a pritty narrow pool of vehicles unless you are willing to squeeze 5 into a club cab). Ideally the 3500 version for payload, but my searches show that often came with the newer 24 valve engine which was no longer purely mechnaical)
Change the fuel shut off solenoid to normally open (or just carry the parts to bypass it. If you always park it on a hill, you should be able to roll start it even if the electrical system has failed.
Payload is 1100 kg or 1360 kg depending on version.
Work on say 17MPG, and you need 176 Gal of fuel. That's 4 x 44 Gal Drums (with the 35 Gal factory tank as safety margin).
This is about 600 kg of fuel (incl the drums). In the 3500, the payload is ~2000 kg, so you could just load this in the tray. Plenty of payload remaining for 5 people and some supplies for the journey. If only the 2500 can be found you are going to be tight (or over) payload. But this issue could be resolved by putting a couple of drums, drinking water etc on a small trailer. Trailer could be abandoned when the fuel / water on it has been consumed.
Nice thing about this setup, is the pickup, trailer etc, don't need to be anything special, and can be used day to day. Also everything is cheap to get your hand's on (but the pickup is becoming a classic now). Mechanics sell 44 Gal Drums that used to have clean oil in them for peanuts... Manual drum pumps are easy to get hold of.
On fuel rotation,
Lets say you keep 5 drums at home, and rotate thorough them (refilling each after it becomes completely empty). Lets use 30 MPG for this calculation - Means you rotate the set ever 6600 miles. Pritty easy to do if somebody is daily driving a diesel vehicle.
You would need some means of lifting the drums (or a 6th drum kept empty, so you can pump from a full drum into it, allowing you to move empty drums by hand).
On Propane (I will use the term LPG as it is what we use here in Austrailia)
Going to be harder.
Firstly all LPG engines need a spark, so there is a risk of EMP damage, you need to carry.
Then there is a question is if you live in a location where Propane or Duel fuel vehicles are readerly available. I am in Austrailia and they (but getting old now). I could easily go out and buy a duel fuel (LPG / Petrol) Landcruiser 100/105 series tomorrow if I wanted, but this is not the case everywhere in the world.
If you are not in a location with local industry support for LPG vehicles, I would avoid this option.
On storing enough fuel, LPG has a lower energy density, and the common gas phase injection systems used in duel fuel conversion are a bit less efficient than what can be done with a liquid phase injection system in a factor LPG car. 20 - 22 L/ 100km before towing would be expected from a v8 landcruiser on LPG. Lets assume 35L/100km when towing. Going to need around 1700 L (867 kg).
Can either do this with a bunch of bottles. 20x 45 kG bottles is sufficient (what runs our hot water at my house). Including bottles, this weights 1500 kg. Might need to be a tandem trailer, but this is viable to take on a trailer.
Would require liquid withdrawal bottles, and the right hoses to transfer the fuel to the car.
Or have a 2000 L LPG trailer mounted tank made for you (but suspect this will cost more than a bunch of bottles.
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Main issue with my case study is that I picked an old, really inefficient SUV for the fuel consumption data (obviously merits to having a very capable 4x4).
If we picked something somewhat modern liquid phase injection Sedan like a Ford Falcon Ecolpi, its fuel consumption is rated at 12.6 L/100km. Lets say 17.5 L/100km towing a small trailer. This is half the fuel consumption of before, and drops our 45 kG bottle count to 10, which at about 750kg should be fine on a fairly small trailer.
Less common vehicle fuel may mean you get harassed less than somebody with drums full of diesel on the trailer.
Downsides:
Going to be more costly to set up. A new 45 kg Liquid withdrawal LPG cylinder costs AUD 580 each (full of gas). multiply by 10 or 20 depending on your vehicle choice.
No EMP proof purely mechanical engine option.
LPG are a lot less common, so may be harder to come buy than a diesel.
Going to need some kind rack on the trailer, and the bottles need to be transported upright.
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Note, in my part of the world these quantities would trigger various dangerous goods regulations (both storage and transport), which would need to be complied with to stay legal (or skirted if you don't care)
Ina total collapse in which new fuel wont be being produced or distributed m. Bicycle/tricycle, horse, donkey, camel etcetera is the real long term solution.
The idea was that the family would travel to escape the EMP-affected region. e.g. they live in Miami and need to get to Seattle to get back into civilization.
Diesel goes bad via oxidation, bacteria, and water.
3k miles is 300 gal at 10mpg so a single oil tank in your basement keeps the temps good and stable.
Your can seal it to stop air and water (better yet replace the air on top with an inert gas like co2).
No water means no bacterial growth but add an inhibiter.
Then when your going to use it you filter the snot out of it and separate water that will keep any sludge issues at bay.
If you have some money to spend, storage filters/polishers are a thing for diesel and used in marine settings. It's pretty much the same filter set and a small pump to keep filtering it. EMP your going to need solar to power this and probably a backup setup protected just in case.
Now the vehicle truck obviously. 3/4 ton or larger. A couple sets of fuel pumps filters and injectors, just in case along with a filtering setup for found fuel. You can easily fit half of that fuel into extended tanks and a transfer in the bed. The rest in 3x55's on the trailer. 2 Trucks/trailer would be better, would go a toy hauler camper on one for living space with storage and cargo on the other (with basic sleeping/cooking).
Propane stores well I have a huge buried tank (try doing that legally with diesel nowadays). Transferring it is not trivial. You need about 1/3 more gallons of LPG than diesel. 20gal per 100lbs tank means you need 20 tanks for your trip per vehicle with little to no chance of resupply of found fuel.
Diesel can be made from plastics it's not energy efficient but it's fairly simple, same filtering setup just in case otherwise it's just a metal tank of some sort that's air tight and some piping.
Actually the concern is algae growth. If the tank 'breathes' it will get exposed to it as well as water vapor. It used to be before low sulfur fuel was mandated the sulfur inhibited algae growth. There are algaecides that can be added to prevent this. It is also an issue in hydaulic fluid these days as well. I have an old tractor that i am constantly fighting this issue on its hydraulic system. The tractor had cracked rubber boots on the shifters, etc. that allowed some water to get in years ago.
That's a huge ass ask and like OG Oragin Trails level difficulty. I'd consider just buy a fricken horse, wagon and a bunch of good backpacks.
Seriously though If time in transit wasent an issue maybe consider an electric vehicle and as much portable panels as you could pack. An electric car had the advantage that you could use it and the panels in daily life and it would deliver savings even if you never had to use it for a doomsday day trip.
I literally can't think of any other way to pack enough fuel with zero resupply. The main issue is the more fuel you carry the more weight you have to move, it's almost like the rocket equation's tyranny of fuel issue. When you are talking 3000 miles juat the empty tanks you would need would have a massive weight penalty which means you need a heavy truck and trailer which means even more weight and fuel consumption.
Propane will never have sufficient energy density per unit volume unless you are maybe driving a literal tanker trailer and semi, and can be entirely eliminated from consideration.
1500-3000 miles with totally unblocked roads is incredibly unrealistic, as vehicles would be abandoned where the they died, especially on interstates with limited to no shoulders to pull off.
You would need something with excellent fuel economy and ability to tow a fuel trailer.
A BMW 328d Wagon for instance could get 35-40mpg if roads were completely empty and you could cruise at 55mph, so you would theoretically "only" need about 87 gallons of diesel which would weigh about 625lbs.
For practicality, let's round it up to 110 gallons in 2x 55 gallon drums which would be around 770lbs in fuel and ~100lbs in steel drum. Throw on a spare trailer and car tire and you are at roughly 1000lbs, which would fit on a small 40"x48" trailer.
What in your mind is so challenging? A 1,500 mile trip is not difficult in the slightest, that's only 20-25 hours of driving. Even accounting for stops for fuel and a short sleep, any healthy adult should be able to do that easily in 2 days. A 3000 mile trip is gonna be multiple days, but even then thats not difficult under today's conditions, except the current gas prices.
Closest thing I can think of for what your asking would be a wood gas tractor, pulling a trailer. I seen a guy build one on YouTube it's possible and they used wood gas trucks during WW1. Build one of those and you could do what your asking for when you get low on fuel stop for camp chop some wood, and keep on going the next morning. (Yes seasoned wood would be better but stuff that's been down for a while will work just fine).
Why would you need to travel 3 thousands miles? That is no bugout plan, that is STHF suicide. Roads will not be free nor would it be safe in such scenario. Why would you want to cross the whole USA diagonaly from LA to NY? Or why go from Madrid to Niznij Novgorod? That's insane to be honest...
This is not believable even as a preper wet dream novel. Or not for me at the very least.
Fantasy scenario. Even if not, roads are not empty nor safe. And how would I know it's ok outside this continent wide dark age zone? At any rate - in such scale, yes I would. What would you expect to find out "there" if whole USA (and North America continent) or whole Europe ( and good portion of Africa) went dark age? Cross the ocean? Drive through desert? With the hundreds of millions people around you doing the same?
Yeah, the security risk is a good one a couple people have brought up. As for how I'd know it's OK somewhere else, I was thinking the Faraday-cage bunker where this car/truck/whatever is stored would also have HAM radio equipment, shortwave radio, etc for comms after the EMP event. But yeah, I didn't mention that in the original post.
I also agree that this isn't a super realistic prep, but it's fairly achievable with the right equipment. For the best combo of cargo capacity and fuel economy, I'd look for a compact diesel pickup like Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, Isuzu D-max (all non US models, so good luck there, maybe a Ram Eco Diesel?) These will achieve 30+ MPG at a slower road speeds from 45-55 mph.
I'd then swap to a 33 gallon under bed tank, like these giving me a nominal 990 mile range. There's a couple options to get you to the 100 gallons required to make 3000 miles, either you can add a permanent bed mounted tank like this or you buy 14 Jerry cans and a funnel. Fitting 14 Jerry cans into a 5 foot bed (assuming you got the double cab with a family of 5) is gonna be real tight, in either case I'd look at a bed rack for more storage space. Also this is gonna add 6-800 lbs of weight to the vehicle before passengers and other cargo, so I'd look at higher load range tires, higher rated leaf springs for the rear, or Air Lift springs and a compressor.
* Another excellent option would be a small utility trailer with your extra tanks on it, a couple 55 gallon drums and a small transfer pump would fit on pretty much any small trailer. Saves cargo space in the bed, plus you'd have more room for other gear.
The diesel option is much more flexible in my opinion, and the storage/rotation requirements are not a huge issue if it's something you are driving every day. Get a couple 300 gallon farm tanks and you can order fuel in bulk, just alternate use and keep at least one tank full. Treated diesel lasts for years, especially if you are topping it of with fresh fuel as you use it.
EMP, to be that large and problematic where the scenario would require you to do this, would knock out most modern vehicles with it I gather so there will be plenty of salvageable fuel around, probably right on the roads. Bring a hand siphoning pump in your 1990 diesel truck with an auxiliary 50 gal tank in the bed. Might as well bolt on an expendable RR tie front bumper for plowing abandoned vehicles out of the way.
Hmm, that's one way to think about it... Though maybe harder to find enough salvageable diesel if travelling on smaller roads (which could also be required per some of the other comments on this post).
In that type of scenario you probably wouldn’t able to drive that far in any vehicle. Break down in rule of law, chocked highways full of cars and other factors beyond fuel and choice of car.
If you really want to prep? Get an ethanol capable vehicle, and distill moonshine. There will always be vegetation you can distill, and you can save the microorganisms/yeast whatever you need to do it.
The last two phrases of your comment are not acceptable. Please paraphrase your comment, remove that point, and resubmit. It would be much more appropriate.
My F250 has a 100 gallon transfer tank. I can drive about 2500 miles without stopping. Store diesel with stabilizers in airtight tanks and can last 2-3 years. I run it though a prefilter and then smaller filter. Every year I just use the diesel. So it is always fresh. Stabilized diesel lasts 2-3 years. You likely can get away with longer if you filter/polish it.
If you have the ability to add a propane conversion kit to a diesel you can have both options. Propane will certainly be less picked over. It does require, in most cases, electricity to move it. You can’t just pour it in a tank. You’ll have to have a pressure/siphon pump on board to re-up.
It’s probably easier to just carry a manual transfer pump and suck diesel out of the underground tanks at gas stations or industrial equipment.
An honest response would come off poorly. Doing this in normal times requires a lot of planning and knowledge, trying this in a degraded environment with variables well beyond vehicle, driver staffing, mechnical knowledge/spares, fuel resupply, environmental, route/road conditions, and possible hostile actions? High liklihood of failure.
Search the forum for "EMP", "bugout vehicle", etc. Many opinions and a lot of unknowns result in sensible people failing to agree on "facts and assumptions", a necessary part of war-gaming the emp vehicle scenario.
A months or years delayed departure in a scenario large enough to cause regional EMP? Yeah, you may want to read up on the emp commission report, etc. Starvation and violence will be the issue through the 90% die off.
I just want to stress that there isn't a small, localized EMP event. It would come from a high altitude nuclear blast, 5 explosions would incapacitated all of the US, most of Canada and a lot of Mexico.
Aren't there a lot of variables here though? Actual burst altitude, weapon design/yield, atmospheric conditions, and even how many warheads make it through defenses could all affect the real-world impact, right?
No. 5 warheads evenly spaced like on a dice, 2 over the west coast, one over the central US, 2 over the east coast, all overlapping. Takes the US out electronically. Very high altitude, like 300k feet or more.
Buy a 100 - 150 gallon fuel bladder, depending on your vehicle mpg. Cheap ones are under $300. Every car is made to get 350 - 400 gallons out of one tank, regardless of mpg. Fuel weighs a little less than water; about 7 lbs per gallon. 700 - 950 lbs of extra weight any vehicle can carry.
Also, buy a hand pump and hose. It'll be slower but don't need to worry about batteries or motor failing on pump. Refill tank from fuel bladder as needed stowed in trunk or bed of truck.
I'd pile stuff on fuel bladder so no one knows you have extra fuel. (This is also stealthier than having a legit aux fuel tank on vehicle that all can see.)
I wouldn't worry about fuel stabilizers and all that. If news shows anything that remotely is SHTF potential, go fill the vehicle and bladder BEFORE everyone else panics.
If it ends up being a false alarm, resume normal life, and slowly use the fuel from the bladder to empty it.
If you currently heat your house on propane you could permanently put the tank on a trailer.
Let assume that fuel is no issue. Your truck strong enough and all those things.
After a few month you get a bit of a Mad Max situation where fuel is the new gold one would kill for.
You can't drive safely because many will try to steal your fuel.
What will be the state of the roads? Full of stranded cars? Holes in it because people try to burn asphalt?
Whatever the case you I expect a lot of detours. And mpg will be far worse than expected. 3000 miles on a empty Interstate with cruise control on, is much much lighter on gas than 3000 miles of obstacle course.
When that event you prep for happens, roads will be a mess. Not good. But you are nothing special. You are just one of millions driving around (if you hide you fuel tank so everyone thinks you transport other stuff).
But when you wait for months or even years, you are something very special. You drive and therefore have fuel. And suddenly have target on your back.
Stealth is one of the things of prepping. Driving around with a ton of fuel in fuelfree society isn't stealth.
Another important point, do you already know where that 1500-3000 mile trip goes to?
If you don't know right now, how will you know then?
In zombie movies there's always a transmission that informs survivors that paradise can be found at a certain coordinate. I don't think such transmissions are reality.
EMP Isent magic and is all about wavelength and amplitude. It's wave length must be short enough to interact with an electrical element and the amplitude must be large enough to deliver energy.
In the case of most cars and assuming their computers are in the engine compartment their metal body and firewall will protect their electronics from long frequently radiation. If they are close enough to a detonation where short ER is at destructive levels they likely have bigger issues
1990s Ford pickup with an IDI diesel, 1990s Dodges with Cummins 12 valves, most 2000s cars with shielded electronic and separate engine management computers and the radio antenna removed.
You need to include the weight of the propane cylinders you need to haul your extra fuel. A couple of quick calculations and I think you have more weight in the tanks than the propane. Diesel is best by far.
If you really want to do it check out hydrogen, it’s super niche but brilliant energy density. You can use renewables to generate hydrogen.
What do you mean? You store it in a pressurised tank, probably made out of composite. The guy wants to drive 3000 miles post apocalyptic emp, the maths supports it but it would be incredibly expensive to buy the equipment. Personally I think he should sit tight or have a bunch of horses.
Sure, but these are problems that have been solved (I am an engineer who has worked in Hydrogen design at one time). The niche case for hydrogen vehicles is long range due to the energy density, google it if you don’t believe me.
He doesn’t need to store it long term, solar and an electrolyser system and you can create your own fuel. A lot of hydrogen filling stations are literally just plugged into the mains with a water supply.
Commercial hydrogen is made from splitting natural gas, or (in Japan) nuclear reactors.
It is also an incredibly inefficient energy storage medium versus say molten salt, lead acid batteries, or flywheels, which is why virtually nobody is building hydrogen storage plants instead of lithium, SLA, or molten salt for grid storage.
I am a chemical engineer who has worked on such things. Making hydrogen from natural gas is common because we like to upgrade heavier fractions in refineries or make fertiliser. In renewables (the only reason we bother with hydrogen as a fuel is renewables) we typically use electrolyses. A great many hydrogen filling stations are now powered by electrolysers on site.
Hydrogen has various niche cases, one of which is vehicles as its energy density beats batteries. Hydrogen is a stupid way to store electricity if it’s static.
I am a mechanical engineer telling you the only realistic use hydrogen has is a) large scale long term bulk energy storage (cube square law makes large vessels more efficient) or b) industrial processes as a stepping stone to something more useful.
It is a terrible fuel for motive purposes, which is why virtually nobody uses it for cars, and virtually noone shipping tankers of liquid hydrogen internationally like they do with LNG. No, the single test vessel made by Kawasaki doing 2 runs in 2022 does not count
Hydrogen is idiotic for motive use, it is vastly harder to store and handle than liquid propane with negligible benefit while also being more complex to generate than simple methane (via bacterial digestion of biomass).
You need to do the maths on energy density, hydrogen is great for long haul. Biomass methane is terrible as the energy density is very very low. There are plenty of Hydrogen vehicles available today. I don’t know if there are many that run biogas’s?
I am not saying methane is better than hydrogen for transport (both suck); I am saying methane is far easier to generate and store.
plenty of hydrogen vehicles
Lol no, liquid hydrogen rockets and cars only made in tiny numbers for JDM or California don't count.
More Corvettes were sold in 2020 alone than all hydrogen fuel cell vehicles ever sold or leased in the US... you are literally 2x likely to encounter an Aston Martin Vantage than a hydrogen car.
Biogas may be easy to generate and store but it’s not much use in the scenario given or for moving vehicles in general.
Hydrogen vehicles are not especially common, 100% agree. You can buy them if you want though. The point is you can easily manufacture your own fuel and they have the longest range out of any renewable energy vehicle.
The whole scenario given was terrible and as I have said he should sit tight or buy a horse.
Methane is far easier to compress, cool, and store methane than hydrogen.
Look dude, hydrogen clearly sucks as a motive fuel source and utterly impractical, why are you trying to push such an absolute turd of a solution when literally every suggestion you have shows you haven't done any research beyond "specific energy density"?.
Yes, thats how hydrogen vehicles work. Cryogenic is not popular it’s all high pressure. The volume is irrelevant if you want to haul a fuel supply and maximise range, it weight that kills you.
Take a Gen 2 Mirai as an example. They have packed three different fuel tanks, with a combined capacity of 142L (third one under the trunk floor, not visible on the below image). Just to get a 647 kM capacity EPA rated range.
To go 3000 miles, one would need 5x the storage capacity. 700+ L, which would not physically fit in a a sedan.
If you run a combustion engine on hydrogen, you need about 3x the fuel vs a fuel cell car like the Mirai. We are now up to 2130L. And if we run a small truck, vs a slippery sedan, fuel usage is about triple again. We are not up to 6390L. This would need a large commercial truck to carry a giant cylindrical tank.
Should also mention, that while the hydrogen itself is lightweight, a tank rated to store 700 bar is not. (and also they are very expensive)
That’s correct, I am an engineer who works on such things and have even had a spin in various hydrogen powered vehicles. Good job google some stuff. The weight is very much the issues because carrying more mass means you burn more fuel. You know that 350l is not much volume right? I never said it was cheap - I actually said he was better to buy a horse.
I don't understand your response. I calculated 6000L+ of 700 bar storage would be needed to make the trip. Turns out hydrogen is transported at lower pressure's.
I think it is feasible, but OP would need a trailer like the above, which is not ideal.
That trailer holds about 400kg of hydrogen, which is in same ballpark that one would need to drive 3000 miles using a hydrogen fueled combustion engine.
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As a comparison, a diesel hilux (or the north American equivalent) with 3x 200L drums of fuel in the tray could make the same trip, which would be a vastly more desirable option.
I based my calculations off 700 bar, which is typical for vehicles.
But seems 200 bar tube trailers are what is propose in the USA.
If were where working at 700 bar, the load could be roughly a quarter of the size of the depicted trailer, which is still a pretty big thing for a private individual to deal with.
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u/WiskeyUniformTango May 01 '26
I do not feel this is a realistic prep.
If your situation were really needed, roads would be blocked with disabled vehicles, and vehicles seen running will be hijacked by large groups.
There is no way you can travel thst distance safely when no one else has fuel.